Teams Signing Type A Relievers Won’t Forfeit Picks

Under the new CBA, teams that sign the remaining Type A relievers will not be forced to surrender draft picks, a source tells Ken Rosenthal of FOX Sports (via Twitter).  The teams that sign those relievers and certain other Type A free agents will not forfeit draft picks but the teams that lose those players will still receive compensatory picks (from Twitter).

This means teams can sign Ryan Madson, Francisco Rodriguez, Heath Bell, and other top relievers this offseason without penalty.  The measure is not retroactive, however, meaning that the Phillies will still surrender their first-round pick for signing Jonathan Papelbon.  For a full list of this offseason's free agents, including their Type A/B designation, check out MLBTR's free agent tracker.

Furthermore, the new CBA will do away with the Elias rankings altogether starting next season, Rosenthal tweets.  Under the new system, the top free agents will be subject to compensation if teams make them qualifying offers north of $12MM.


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179 Comments on "Teams Signing Type A Relievers Won’t Forfeit Picks"


JacksTigers
3 years 9 months ago

This could put Kelly Johnson back on the board for the Tigers.

Alvaro Ortiz
3 years 9 months ago

This setup appears to be only for Relief Pitchers, not position players

JacksTigers
3 years 9 months ago

It’s also for some position players. I accidently posted in the wrong forum. There are two of these posts for some reason. This one does not mention the position players.

notsureifsrs
3 years 9 months ago

assuming you’re talking about the elias rankings going away, yes it does. but that won’t impact johnson because that change won’t take effect until next year

JacksTigers
3 years 9 months ago

This might sound dumb, but what constitutes a pitcher when signing a free agent. What if Albert Pujols pitched in a blowout. Could he then qualify as a relief pitcher and then not have to command a draft pick?

ZZZZZIPPP
3 years 9 months ago

POSITIONS AREN’T DETERMINED BY STATS

ALSO

WOULD A TEAM ALLOW THEIR BEST PLAYER TO PITCH ONLY TO LOSE A DRAFT PICK?

JacksTigers
3 years 9 months ago

You are missing the point by so much.

ZZZZZIPPP
3 years 9 months ago

WHAT DOES IT SAY ON THEIR BASEBALL CARD? 

JacksTigers
3 years 9 months ago

It says 3B on Miguel Cabrera’s 2008 card but he played most of the games at 1B.

P.S. There is only room for one Bleacher Creature on here.

ZZZZZIPPP
3 years 9 months ago

ZZZZZIPP WAS NOT SPEAKING IN THE PARTICULAR. 

randomkeys
3 years 9 months ago

You spelled your own name wrong.

suhiscrazierthanyou
3 years 9 months ago

nothing more official

MaineSox
3 years 9 months ago

I think @JacksTigers:disqus might have been referring to this: “The teams that sign those relievers and certain other Type A free agents will not forfeit draft picks but the teams that lose those players will still receive compensatory picks.”

I don’t know what constitutes those “other” Type A free agents though; is it certain positions, or is it borderline Type A’s, or at MLBs discretion somehow, or who knows what else it could be?

JacksTigers
3 years 9 months ago

That is exactly what I was referring to. This is what Ken Rosenthal said:

Top Type As – Pujols, Fielder, Reyes, plus former MVPs Ortiz, Rollins and others – still will carry draft-pick compensation this year.   All remaining Type A relievers – Madson, K-Rod, Bell – will NOT be subject to draft-pick compensation this off-season. Teams that sign those relievers, and certain other Type As, will not forfeit picks. Teams that lose those players will still get them.

New rules take effect next winter. Elias rankings gone. Top FAs subject to comp if teams make them qualifying offers north of $12M per year.  To those asking whether #Phillies will still lose their first-round pick for signing Papelbon, the answer is YES. #Phillies, however, still stand to gain top picks if they lose Madson and Rollins

go_jays_go
3 years 9 months ago

Read the title carefully:
Teams Signing Type A RELIEVERS Won’t Forfeit Picks

JacksTigers
3 years 9 months ago

I posted in the wrong forum.

3 years 9 months ago

Well there’s always a chance that Kelly Johnson might convert to Closingism.
Cheap throw away line, but I figured I would try.

Howard
3 years 9 months ago

 Naw he’s going to re-sign in Toronto

johnsmith4
3 years 9 months ago

I am not so sure…we know how AA doesn’t like to lose draft picks signing free agents…and…technically….Jays lose pick(s) when signing Johnson

GasLampGuru
3 years 9 months ago

…and there goes the Padres excuse for letting Bell walk.  Now there is no question why they’ll fail to sign Bell – they are cheap!  Not sure I agree with this, it puts the small and mid market teams at an even bigger disadvantage as they won’t receive compensation for players they simply can’t afford to sign.  I’m guessing Bell winds up in Boston, which I think is a mistake for him.  He stands to give up more runs in that park.

Devon Henry
3 years 9 months ago

I think its good it will force more trades around the league because teams wont be able to recieve compensation via Free Agency so they will have to trade their final year players before the trade deadline.

NorthOf49
3 years 9 months ago

The small and mid-market teams never actually benefited from compensation anyway, it was always the same teams: Toronto, Boston, Texas, Tampa…

The Padres, Pirates, and Royals of the world never received anything.

notsureifsrs
3 years 9 months ago

lol tampa is a large market now?

NorthOf49
3 years 9 months ago

They’re not, but I was just emphasizing that the teams that get all the comp picks are really the teams that make it their mission to. Should have phrased it differently.

3 years 9 months ago

the Rays benefited by letting their players walk.
Boston benefited by letting some walk and by acquiring rentals at the deadline, then letting them walk. 

johnsilver
3 years 9 months ago

You do realize that most of the time it took good minor league talent to acquire those mid summer acquisitions in the 1st place? Where do those people fit into your equation?

I can see many relievers in the upcoming agreement getting removed from most types of compensation. Tampa just let their relievers walk each year. That is how they would amass their draft picks in large numbers and the winter of 2010/11 was a bonanza of Type A/B’s on their end, only 1 can think of the did not offer arbitration to was Wheeler, the reliever certain to accept, while the rest they offered, players denied and they collected that bounty of 8-9 top 100 picks.

Phillies_Aces35
3 years 9 months ago

You need GOOD players to benefit.

sports33
3 years 9 months ago

So the Padres and their six picks (in the first round and comp round) in this most recent draft haven’t received anything? Good to know…

Drew Tweedie
3 years 9 months ago

Padres will still get a compensatory sandwich pick. While I’m bummed San Diego couldn’t capitalize on Bell before the new CBA was unveiled, it really doesn’t make a whole lot of sense for teams to be losing first-round picks for a player who will pitch fifty-odd innings. Furthermore, as much as I like Bell’s candid nature and general love of San Diego, the last thing the Padres need right now is their closer eating up one-fifth of their salary when they have much cheaper options available.

3 years 9 months ago

I think it’s a compensatory first round pick for this year, not a sandwich pick.  The signing team doesn’t give up a pick, but the losing team still gets their pick this year, if I’m reading this right.

Drew Tweedie
3 years 9 months ago

Interesting. I read elsewhere in here that teams are no longer losing first round picks for signing Type-A free agents. Assuming you have a normal draft (i.e. 30 picks), you then account for free agent signings, where the team that lost a free agent after offering a deal of $12 million or more gets the signing team’s pick position (but the signing team doesn’t lose a pick, they are just shuttled to the end of the first round), which now will push the total number of pick positions above thirty. Am I reading this right?

MaineSox
3 years 9 months ago

I still think it would be best for SD to let Bell go; they would still get the comp picks, it’s just that the other team wouldn’t be giving up any.

Also, Bell stands to give up more runs in any other park not named Petco. 

Drew Tweedie
3 years 9 months ago

Granted there’s a difference of ~12 IP, but his 2011 home/road splits would beg to differ.

MaineSox
3 years 9 months ago

One years sample size isn’t enough to make that determination on, especially a relief pitcher’s sample size, and especially when you cut it in half and start talking about splits.  But point taken, I was exaggerating when I said “any” because clearly there are other pitchers parks out there, but the point is that pretty much anywhere he goes is going to be less of a pitchers park than Petco.

Drew Tweedie
3 years 9 months ago

Well thanks for the corrections; it actually got me curious to check his career home/road splits, and with the exception of more longballs on the road, Bell’s numbers  show a better pitcher out of Petco. Obviously there’s volatility to consider when dealing with relievers, but surprising to me at the very least.

MaineSox
3 years 9 months ago

Yeah, giving up more homers on the road isn’t surprising, but pitching better away from Petco kinda is.

zonis
3 years 9 months ago

Poor Phils

3 years 9 months ago

And let the bidding begin…

BoSoxSam
3 years 9 months ago

Well, now the Phils look utterly foolish. And Boston got pretty lucky.

MaineSox
3 years 9 months ago

Was it really luck though?  I mean, I would have to imagine that the owners had a pretty good idea about what was going to be in the new CBA, so maybe they were just waiting it out.  That would make the Phils already signing Papelbon look more foolish though, so who knows.

cbcbcb
3 years 9 months ago

Thanks Ruben

Jason Vermeychuk
3 years 9 months ago

Yeah from the Phillies standpoint this is BS!

go_jays_go
3 years 9 months ago

Yeah. It’s a bit of a sucker punch, but hey that’s what the Phillies get for being so hasty. It was no secret that the owners were in the midst of negotiating a new CBA.

notsureifsrs
3 years 9 months ago

right. and other than the marlins, we haven’t heard much about any other team making serious offers for relievers. they jumped the gun quite a bit

3 years 9 months ago

Josh Byrnes just punched a wall, and Jed Hoyer just broke out laughing.

kimofromkauai
3 years 9 months ago

Talk about changing the rules in the middle of a game….

3 years 9 months ago

No, under the rules that were in effect at the time that they signed Papelbon, they’d lose a first round pick.  Any time a team has jumped the gun before the decision to offer arbitration (or now offer a $ 12 million contract) was due, the signing team automatically gave up the compensation.   This is no different. 

kimofromkauai
3 years 9 months ago

Granted the Phils signed Paps before the tender deadline.  My point was about the changing of the rules regarding compensation.  Now apparently, even if another type A (Madson) is offered arbitration there is no potential round one compensation for the team losing a player.

3 years 9 months ago

That is not the case.  Teams losing Type A free agents will be compensated the same way.  The only change is that teams that lose SOME Type A free agents will not have to give up a draft pick. 

kimofromkauai
3 years 9 months ago

I think you are missing the point of the article – that a team that signs one of these free agents will not compensate the team that loses the player.  This is different from prior off seasons.  Type A free agent loses were compensated by the signing teams first round pick if in the bottom half of the round or by their #2 pick if in the top half.  Plus a supplemental round pick.

“The only change is that teams that lose SOME Type A free agents will not have to give up a draft pick.”  Losing teams never gave up picks, they received extra ones.

3 years 9 months ago

I mis spoke.  The first part of what I posted is correct.  The second part should read “The only change is teams that SIGN some Type A free agents will not have to give up a draft pick”   I am intimately familiar with the process. 

I think you miss the point.  You are speculating that there are further changes that have not yet been announced.  

Ken Rosenthal:  “Teams that sign those relievers, and certain other Type As, will not
forfeit picks. Teams that lose those players will still get them.”

For a team losing a Type A free agent, nothing changes.   For a team signing some of the Type A’s (including the remaining relievers) no draft pick compensation is necessary.

imachainsaw
3 years 9 months ago

good! Elias rankings are terrible.

3 years 9 months ago

AHAHAH PHILLIES! You operated under the assumption of losing the pick, you should be fine.

Karkat
3 years 9 months ago

Really weird that it’s not retroactive, but I guess this benefits my team so I’ll take it? Still really weird though.

Getting rid of the Elias rankings might not be terrible, though. I was never a huge fan and this pretty much lets the teams decide how much they really want the player, I guess? I wonder if they only become compensation-worthy if they sign with a team that offers them a $12MM contract or just if ANY team does? (Maybe that’s not even an issue…)

Also, I assume this means we’ll see the Sox making offers to Ryan Madson pretty soon xD

notsureifsrs
3 years 9 months ago

still don’t want madson or bell, but thrilled that we won’t give up that first-rounder (i can’t see them signing a cuddyer or a willingham, and beltran’s not going to be offered arb)

Karkat
3 years 9 months ago

I’m not really thrilled with most of the relief options out there, but we need someone with experience to be there so that if Bard can’t handle it there’s another option.  I’m not sure who would be best, honestly. It’s kind of a craps shoot, and they’re almost certainly going to sign one of the big relief arms, so I’m glad it won’t cost a pick now.

Ricardo Elorza
3 years 9 months ago

I will be really surprised if there isn’t a riot in Philly by the end of the week… seriously, either keep compensation for the entire offseason, or ditch it altogether.

Phillies_Aces35
3 years 9 months ago

I don’t think it effects us, to be honest with you, the Phillies get most of their talent rounds 3-20. (Domonic Brown, Trevor May, Michael Bourn, Jarred Cosart, Anthony Gose, Vance Worley, Lou Marson, etc).

I’d be livid if I was in the San Diego front office though. Who knows what guys they turned down thinking they’d get a 1st and a Comp pick for Heath Bell.

Drew Tweedie
3 years 9 months ago

The only offer I remember coming to surface was Wieland/Erlin for Bell (they got both in the Adams’ trade). It’s a substantial loss, but not a terrible one.

Beersy
3 years 9 months ago

You’re exactly right.  This is bull changing the rules mid off season.  Hey why don’t they decide to stop giving homefield advantage in the World Series to the All star game winner in September, that’ll teach ’em.  Then next year they can change it back to the way it is after the All star game when they see which league wins the game.  This may be the dumbest thing Selig has ever done.

Early_Riser
3 years 9 months ago

While I love the fact that this benefits my Red Sox re: Papelbon, shouldn’t this set-up go into effect starting next offseason? Doesn’t seem quite right to have free agency start under one set of rules and finish under another.

0bsessions
3 years 9 months ago

The Phillies (The only team really affected by this) has no one to blame but themselves. They knew the current CBA wouldn’t expire until December and everyone here who was aware of that was questioning why Amaro moved so quickly on Papelbon when it was wlel known the rules may change.

snowbladerp14
3 years 9 months ago

i feel this just continues to help the free spenders and hurts the teams need to draft well to do well

go_jays_go
3 years 9 months ago

Riot for what? A #31 draft pick?

NYPOTENCE
3 years 9 months ago

That #31 pick could have potentially turned out to be a substantial piece of a future trade. I ask for you to ponder about what the future holds.

Phillies_Aces35
3 years 9 months ago

There’s not that much difference between #31 and a supplemental pick. It might be a blessing in disguise given their ability to find talent late in the draft, considering the luxury tax on draft picks.

notsureifsrs
3 years 9 months ago

i appreciate your optimism, but characterizing the loss of a first-rounder as a blessing in disguise is really pushing it

Phillies_Aces35
3 years 9 months ago

It’s #31 overall, it’s essentially a supplemental round pick anyway in addition, it’s $1 million more they can spend later in the draft where the high school talent that falls through the cracks will reside. Instead of one potential all star, they could draft 2.

EDIT: I still think it was stupid on Ruben’s part, but it’s not a huge deal. Maybe blessing in disguise is the wrong way to put it but I can’t see them pushing the luxury tax on picks, so it potentially could be.

Phillies_Aces35
3 years 9 months ago

The first round pick, in the scheme of things for them isn’t a huge deal because they don’t go overslot for their first round pick, so they essentially draft supplemental round talent in the first round anyway.

A first round pick is a bigger deal for teams like Boston and Toronto that take advantage of the picks/their draft budget.

Coollet
3 years 9 months ago

Wouldnt that be the 32nd pick? Toronto have two first round picks (ie: not signing tyler beed)

Phillies_Aces35
3 years 9 months ago

I saw 31 somewhere, you might be right though, I haven’t looked at the draft order recently.

MaineSox
3 years 9 months ago

The last pick in the first round would generally be #30, Toronto having two picks would make it #31, so unless someone else has two picks (they could, I don’t know) the last pick would be #31.

notsureifsrs
3 years 9 months ago

for teams that draft well, a #31 draft pick can be a big deal. recent players taken at the end of the 1st round:

2011 mikie mahtook (ranked 21st in baseball america’s top 200)
2010 justin o’conner (top 15 prospect in a top-3 rays system)
2009 brett jackson (cubs’ top prospect)
2008 casey kelly (centerpiece of adrian gonzalez trade)
2007 andrew brackman (former top yankees prospect)

johnsmith4
3 years 9 months ago

31st pick can be great for teams that spend well.  You can expect one 15th to 20th ranked (Baseball America) player to be available because his agent let it be known they expect a huge signing bonus.

This year, 17th ranked Daniel Norris was drafted 74th overall because his agent communicated they expect to receive $4 mil for a signing bonus.  However, Norris signed for $2.5 mil.

Encarnacion's Parrot
3 years 9 months ago

It’s about time.

That is all.

NYPOTENCE
3 years 9 months ago

Sucks for the Phillies, if they had just waited a couple of more weeks they wouldn’t have had to give up their pick for Papelbon. Anyways, sucks for them. 

go_jays_go
3 years 9 months ago

I still feel that the forfeiting of draft picks should still happen to all players, but only for 2nd round picks and onward.

However, I’m wondering how Type B free agents are evaluated now that the Elias rankings are gone.

notsureifsrs
3 years 9 months ago

per this post, elias rankings aren’t gone until next year. going forward, compensation will only occur when a player signs for more than $12M per year

MaineSox
3 years 9 months ago

After reading about it it sounds like the way it will work is that the team that is losing the player has to offer a $12M contract and be turned down by the player to receive any sort of compensation.  It would replace offering arbitration, as well as getting rid of the need for a ranking system.

Edit: from ESPN “Teams will have to determine whether they make a qualifying offer for a free agent at a one-year guaranteed salary based on a formula. That number is likely to be upwards of $12 million, making it highly doubtful teams would use it on players who aren’t superstars. If the player rejects the offer and signs with another team, the signing team loses its spot in the first round of the amateur draft and moves to the end. Teams will no longer lose a pick for signing a premium free agent.”

3 years 9 months ago

The measure is not retroactive, however, meaning that the Phillies will still surrender their first-round pick for signing….. Is this even “Constitutional”? Believe me, I am not a big fans of the Phillies and even less of a fan of Amaro, but this doesn’t exactly seem fair to me.

3 years 9 months ago

It’s so fair that it hurts

3 years 9 months ago

Yeah but, K Rod and Madson are both Boras cleints.
Boras had a hissy fit when the Sillies signed Papelbon.
It’s now possible that K Rod and Madson will get more money, which is a help financially to both Boras and the players he represents and that’s nice. However, it doesn’t really help baseball. Is Selig placating Boras and if so, why?

FacelessGeneralManager
3 years 9 months ago

Its fair cuz it hurts the phillies.

3 years 9 months ago

Baseball aint fair. Just ask the PIrates, Padres, Orioles etc.

3 years 9 months ago

Hahahaha! Some of that unfairness is the Orioles doing! Angelos firing or not renewing good help. Refusal to take a chance. Refusal to pay players what they are worth.
As for the Padres.. only if they had gotten Cody Ross instead of the Giants in 2010. As for the Pirates… I just don’t know..The Orioles however, a lot of that is their own doing (the powers that be in “Charm City”.

nepp
3 years 9 months ago

Having an incompetent FO and miser for an owner (Pirates) or an incompetent controlling owner (Orioles) is “unfair”?  No, thats just being stupid.  Look at all the top picks (Top 5-10) the Pirates have had in the last 15 years…how many have panned out…how many guys have they missed on?  That’s just terrible scouting and that’s on them.  As for the Orioles, Angelos had a cash cow in the mid 90s in Camden Yards and gave up a ton of dumb contracts instead.