Westbrook Gets Three-Year Extension

According to MLB.com, the Indians have extended starter Jake Westbrook through the 2010 season, with no option years. 

PECOTA would only offer about $25MM to the groundballer, but Baseball Digest Daily reports the amount as $33MM.  That's on par with Javier Vazquez's recent extension.  The deal is clearly a hometown discount; Cleveland journalists had speculated that he'd get at least four years and $12MM annually.

That still leaves C.C. Sabathia and Travis Hafner as the team's major upcoming free agents.  That's not until after the 2008 season though.  It has been said that Carlos Zambrano's contract could serve as a framework for Sabathia's.  Assuming the Cubs sign Z at five years, $80MM, the Tribe should go for a similar deal with C.C.  This year might be his best, so the time is now.  Personally, I don't think the below-market Westbrook deal kills the C.C. possibility.   

On Pronk, I think the Indians can hold off.  As awesome as he is, that's a $100MM+ contract and at least a five year commitment.  If the team makes the playoffs this year and/or in 2008, maybe that would create some extra revenue to put towards Hafner.

Comments

[Gregy606]

Not really sure about this move as it basically takes them out of the running for Sabathia. No way they have the cash to sign both with the current market, especially with them also looking to extend Hafner. Unless they got Westbrook at a real discount which still makes little sense with the depth in the farm system(Miller/Carmona/Slocum). Also take into account the Indians also do not have the defense to MAKE Westbrook a sub 4.00 ERA type guy. I was really hoping the Indians would just stock pile their savings for 2008 when both Hafner and Sabathia's contracts are up, but now they have essentially taken themselves out of the running for Sabathia at least.

[MickS]

Wow Gregy, negative spin right out of the gate. Hafner and CC aren't free agents till the end of '08. The Tribe is deep in pitching prospects so dealing CC in the next off-season might be the way to go anyway if he insists on a Zito type deal. As much as I like CC I'm not sure I'd want to go 7 years $120 mil plus for him even if we could. I believe Hafner will be re-signed.

Cubs, Yankees, Mets et al will just have to look elsewhere for a reliable, innings-eating #3 next off-season.

In any event, I don't think Westbrook will be around to the end of the contract. The Tribe will have to make room for the youngsters and Jake should still be attractive trade bait in a couple of years.

[Gregy606]

I'd like something more like 5 years for C.C. I really just dont see a point in keeping a 4.20-4.50 ERA innings eater at 11 mil. per year, when we have 3 guys who can be making league minimum in order to keep the best players we have developed in the last few years. C.C. has shown a lot of interest in staying in Cleveland which could mean he would accept a discount.

[RotoAuthority]

I think you are underestimating how rare a 4.30 ERA innings eater is, a guy who never gets hurt. And does it in the AL. That's a slam dunk for $11 mil.

[bravesbeast]

so i am taking it that that means gil meche is a slam dunk right, i all seriousess, if westbrook does not get more money per that gil meche does, then something is wrong with this system we call free agency, i understand that meche was the royals futile effort to make a splash, but still, 11 million is about the going rate for a quality 3 who at times can pitch like a good 2

[Gregy606]

Westbrook hasn't been injured lately Roto, but coupled with the fact that Adam Miller has the potential to post all-star numbers NOW, this seems kinda rediculous. I'm not saying Westbrook isn't worth 11 Mil. to someone like the Yankees, but when your the Indians who rely on a solid farm system, it's time to cut ties with a guy who's pitching style isn't matched well with your team.

[mraver]

You pay a premium to get guys to come to KC, and Westbrook gave CLE a bit of a discount. That's why Meche is being paid similarly to Westbrook, not because they have similar skill. (Although it's worth noting that they do have very similar career ERA+, and Meche is a year younger....)

Besides, bravesbeast, your argument doesn't even make sense: just because this was a good signing doesn't make other signings at similar dollar amounts good signings.

[TribeFan06]

this is a good sign for the tribe...not only is it good solid pitcher that we kept but it also shows that there are guys here willing to take a discount to stay....that is not something you can say about our last era of players (Belle, thome, manny...) also this signing gives the indians the ammo for a trade in the offseason or at the deadline. If carmona pans out like i think he will, it makes cliff Lee expendable and leave the indians with a rotation of 1. Sabathia 2. Westbrook 3. Sowers 4. Byrd 5. Carmona

then next year Byrd gets replaced by miller and the year after that Sabathia gets replaced by Lofgreen...Shapiro has this pitching staff set well for the present and future

[notsellingjeans]

The key is that they signed him below market value.
Sure, 11 million per is a lot of money for the Indians.
But if his 11 million per eventually cramps their ability to negotiate with another guy, they could always trade Westbrook, since his contract would be looked upon favorably by many teams in the league.
They really aren't hamstrung by this at all, unless they gave him a no-trade clause.

[notsellingjeans]

Plus, you can't look at it in 2007 dollars only.
You have to look at it in 2008, 2009, and 2010 dollars, assuming 10% inflation of contracts each year, which is the league average.
In 2009/2010, pitchers of Westbrook's caliber will probably be signing FA contracts at 14-15 million per...and his contract will look even more attractive.
Certainly the salary trends of the last 10 years would suggest that, anyway.

I don't think that contract limits their options at all; it may in fact eventually enhance them. If you can ever sign a player to a below-market deal with out a NTC, especially a durable one like Westbrook, it's a slam dunk.

[darkstar1661]

Gregy,

See, I see things on the complete opposite of the spectrum…
A) We do have the defense to make Westbrook a better ERA guy now. With Marte & Barfield added to an ideally ‘fixed’ Peralta our infield D is looking much better than it has recently. Our big D problems come in the OF because of a couple of our platooners ~ it’s the flyball pitchers who will probably suffer this year.
B) Why not Westbrook? He’s been one of our most consistent pitchers the last couple years, a guy who has proved he doesn’t buckle under pressure (remember those Yankee games? Or the Playoff stretch of 05?) and wants to pitch here! An under 30 LH starter with 3 straight seasons of 14-15 Wins, 210+ innings and an ERA in the 4.00 range? Sure, I’ll take him in a heartbeat!
C) Although our youngsters look great ~ you never know what they will turn out to be! Remember when we had Tallet, Traber, Davis, R.Rodriguez, Cruceta etc etc etc… Who is to say that Sowers, Carmona, Miller, Slocum, Lofgren etc will even turn out to be what Westy is now?
D) The money isn’t gone! We have vets set to come off the books this and next year, freeing up money for CC and Pronk. We also have money left that we didn’t spend this last off-season and any money we get from a possible playoff spot in 07. Money can be made, contracts can be back loaded and discounts can be given ~ I think its more foolish to let a guy like Jake walk because you think you might need that money down the road when you really have no clue! Worst case scenario, we do need the money and trade him in the 08 offseason to add the cash we forked over to the others.
E) Do we really need Hafner? As much as I love him, we have some great young players down in Buffalo this year that are already missing out on their chance to play. How many OF/1B/DH types do we need? And if Kelly shows he deserves a fulltime job in his fill-in duty this year whats to say that V-Mart doesn’t become the DH of the future ~ which could also really increase his power numbers not having the stress of catching giving him nagging aches and pains.
F) Who is to say we don’t really need him this or next year! Lee is already on the DL, Sabathia could hit it at any time, Byrd is getting up there in age with past injury problems and we have no ‘real’ clue how any of the Rooks+Sowers will perform. In a worst-case-but-highly-possible scenario we could see Westbrook as our only established starter within a short amount of time (*keeps fingers crossed this doesn’t happen*). For as much pitching as we have, we are not stockpiled in “reliable pitching” ~ Jake would be our only in most peoples eyes…

We’ve been really lucky having very few injuries to our rotation the last couple years, that’s the kind of thing you cant keep banking on though and when you have the opportunity to long-term a solid pitcher like Westbrook below what he would cost on the open market I think you have to without second thought…

I think the organization has bigger issues than this contract to Westbrook and the pending CC/Pronk contracts. We have what, 9 ML/ML-ready OFers with the better ones in the minors just so we could get some vets on a team which fields 4 ‘under 3year’ players in the infield half the time (Kelly or Garko playing ~ when both are in there that’s all 5 spots!). Having a young team is great for the future but sucks for the present (see 06); having to infuse vets in turn costs many youngsters time and development (see Francisco/Choo/FrankieG). Or how about our Bullpen issues, which who knows how that will turn out...

[bravesbeast]

Mraver,

This is what happens when you try to think you are more intelligent than everyone else. You took my argument the wrong way because you were trying to appear like a guru and came away looking like an ignorant stooge. My argument was not that westbrook's contract was a measuring stick for other 11 million dollar contracts. I was saying the gil meche contract sucked, I already made the point about kansas city having to overpay the guy when i said it was their futile effort to make a splash. My point was that the jake westbrook signing was good, as he is a much better value at that price than meche. Far more value. And my other point was that 10 to 12 million is the going rate right now for a 4-4.50 era innings eater. So again, your attempt to seem superior proved stupid, because in trying to prove me wrong, all you did was prove the exact points i made.

[Gregy606]

A. If you have been watching the Indians you would already be aware that not only is Marte's plate approach not major league ready, but his glove looks far from polished. Currently he looks like the worst defender on the team. If he continues the way he has the last couple days Blake will replace him. And for good reason he doesn't even look Triple A ready. We are currently ranked last in the league in D and we've played 3 less games than everyone else. Our defense will continue to be a problem in the future.
B. Sure i'll take westbrook but why if we have kids waiting to make league minimum. I rather see what we have in these kids than watch another one of jake's 4.50 era seasons.
C/D. What do you get if our 33 Mil. man gets hurt tomorrow? or next year? or next month? Nothing is for sure, the money could be gone. Or Westbrook could just start to stink. Either way their are plenty of ways for him to lose value. Anyone familiar with the tribe knows were not signing all 3. basically what this says to me is we have given up on sabathia and spent way too much for a pitcher who's starts seem to blow up in his face way too often (especially within our own division). Obviously not all these kids will pan out, but some will, so lets pay them the league minimum and get at least a 4.50 era outta whatever rookie does pan out.
E. Yes we really need Hafner, have you seen this guy hit. I beg you to name anyone in our system that has a bat like his?..... I agree Shoppach should catch, but Martinez would play 1B, not DH. If anything Garko would DH b/c of his glove(which is looking better lately unlike that of Marte)
F. Many casual fans are not aware that Jake has an injury history with his arm, which worries me more than two oblique strains from C.C.

[bravesbeast]

gregy,
you may be more ignorant than mraver. Any pitcher could just get hurt and have their career end tmrw. And as far as westbrook goes, he is more than worth this extension. Pitching a consistient 4.50 in the AL is very good, as can be seen by the fact his 44 victories over the past three years is the fifth most in the AL. Plus, he is a groundball pitcher, which means he has an increased chance to continue producing the consistient numbers he has over the past few years. Plz understand that you sign the players you can afford when you get the chance, especailly a consistienly productive pitcher in the case of westbrook. The Indians are built to win now and in the future. This signing was to help then win in the near future, and a damn good move by shapiro to validate a consistiently productive part to his pitching staff over the next four years. Plz know how the game works before you comment. Those young kids are no sure thing, as they could come to the majors and struggle just as marte is at third. And take it from a braves fan, give marte time. He will eventually catch on, just like he did at every other level in the minors.

[ArodSucksAtLife]

"A. If you have been watching the Indians you would already be aware that not only is Marte's plate approach not major league ready, but his glove looks far from polished. Currently he looks like the worst defender on the team. If he continues the way he has the last couple days Blake will replace him. And for good reason he doesn't even look Triple A ready."

Holy crap one of the reasons the braves gave him up to the Sox, and one of them reasons the Sox gave him up to the Indians. So now we can see Schuerholz and Theo aren't idiots....I get it.

Now make a straight up renteria for coco argument or something along that line.

[darkstar1661]

Gregy,

See, again I don’t really agree with any of that…

04-06 stats for a couple of our starters over that time:
38-31, 3.79 ERA, 89 GS, 577.1 IP ~~~ Sabathia
44-34, 4.01 ERA, 96 GS, 638.2 IP ~~~ Westbrook
34-29, 4.02 ERA, 89 GS, 548.0 IP ~~~ Millwood
30-27, 4.20 ERA, 81 GS, 498.2 IP ~~~ Byrd
46-24, 4.50 ERA, 98 GS, 582.2 IP ~~~ Cliff Lee
18-29, 5.24 ERA, 80 GS, 455.0 IP ~~~ Elarton
As you can see, Jake is 2nd in ERA & Wins and 1st in IP & GS!

So first off, where do you keep getting this “I don’t want to see him and his 4.5 ERA” from? He has had a 4.50 ERA ONCE (2005) since becoming a starter; and his 3 year average of 4.01 is very solid! But lets think of it this way, that 4.01ERA would have ranked him 29th in baseball last year or 14th in the AL. His actual 4.17ERA in 2006 ranked him 37th in MLB and 16th in the AL! He led the league in shutouts, was 3rd in complete games and 10th in IP while ranking 16th in ERA and you don’t want to see him pitching for us?

Westbrook and his supposed injury history? Well, in 2000 he had a broken rib and in 2002 he had a couple bone chips removed from his shoulder which kept him out for ONE MONTH ~ but he was brought back a little too early and after a couple games his arm was hurting because of a burse in the area they worked on. This minor surgery 5 years ago worries you does it?

I just don’t see it, I just cant see why anyone would want to let Jake go ~ he has been the best pitcher not named CC we have seen since 2002… Do I want to see kids? Yeah ~ but not at the cost of losing games! How did you enjoy watching Carmona today? Could you imagine seeing games like that 2 or 3 times a week because we are trying out rookies all the time? Like I said, we still don’t know how Sowers will do (I believe he will be solid, but its still so early in his career) ~ we cant have 2 or 3 first-full-year-rookies in the rotation and expect to go very far. With Byrd gone after the season, not having very solid production from Lee lately and Sowers/the kids still a question mark how in the world would you ever root for us not to retain Westbrook? At least if we do lose CC it will be in the 2009 season meaning we have 2 years to find his replacement, if we were to lose Jake we would have to find the replacement this year for him and Byrd while trying to compete, meaning the kids get no time ~ and that isn’t going to work! You went on to ask “what do we get if Jake gets hurt?”, well again its much less likely he will get hurt than any of our other options and at least it wouldn’t be like losing CC with the 15Mil contract he will probably get. But who knows who gets hurt, impossible to predict; historically though it’s usually the kids who aren’t used to the length of the season or who overthrow trying to impress blowing their arms out. Just imagine that, we insert 3 youngsters who now have all this expectation on their shoulders to make us a contender…
Oh and if you are really more worried about Westbrook getting hurt because he had a very minor surgery 5 years ago over CC who is a hard throwing guy with weight issues, history with nagging injuries and a lot of innings under his belt at a young age then I don’t know what to say…

Now, onto Marte and the fielding thing:
So which is it; do you want to see the kids play or do you want vets who can handle the job? You seem to have wavered a bit on that… Realistically, Marte can not spend any more time in AAA, he has spent the last two years there. He did fine in Spring Training and maybe we should give him a few more ABs before we just write him off. You’re afraid of his defense as well though because of 6 games? Well, let’s think about this for a min ~ last year his D was solid during his call up and he has always been talked about as a very good defender. But we have these couple of bad plays in the first week of this season… what could it mean?

This year we have played a three game series in 30degree temps in Chi and 3 games in a stadium no one has even seen before with a nice long vacation in between ~ think the players are in a rhythm? This has been the worst way to start a season imaginable and if you are taking all the stats in as if it’s a precursor to the season then I don’t know what to say... Realistically though, we really need to write the first two series off as “I’m just glad we got through them” and be happy with the 4-2 record ~ individually I don’t care what anyone wasn’t able to do during that mess. Do you really think Marte will not be a better player for us then Boone? Do you really think that Barfield isn’t an improvement over Belliard/Luna/Inglett? (sure, I know Belly does make some great plays but his range is lacking) Do you really think that the improvement Peralta showed in ST just disappeared and all his off-season work will show no results? Let’s get real here and maybe put a tad bit less stock in a wacky start to the season and a bit more stock in logic and reason…

Oh, and no we don’t need Hafner ~ he is just a hitter. Do we have anyone who can hit like him? Nope, he is one of the top 3 pure hitters in the league ~ that doesn’t mean we need him though! But you imply we should overpay for our 2nd best position player which would take jobs away from the kids, where we shouldn’t resign our 2nd best pitcher because you want to see the kids play? See, since it’s so much harder to find good pitching than hitting I can’t figure out where you’re going here at all…

But let’s think about this a little more:
Hafner ~ already kinda old, already injury prone, can’t field to save his life, amazing hitter.
Would it be nice to keep him ~ of course! But he isn’t exactly the kind of guy you want to build your team around… Will we find a replacement bat with his numbers? Nope, but do we really need it that badly? Can’t you usually find a strong hitter off the FA market every year that could fill the void if we did lose him? Remember, we lost Belle and weren’t really affected because of Manny and Thome stepping up. Did we collapse when we lost Manny? Nope, Juan Gone filled his shoes quite well.

[darkstar1661]

Oh and ArodWhatever:
"Holy crap one of the reasons the braves gave him up to the Sox, and one of them reasons the Sox gave him up to the Indians. So now we can see Schuerholz and Theo aren't idiots....I get it. Now make a straight up renteria for coco argument or something along that line. "

Yeah, how did Coco work out for you guys last year? Hahaha…

But why did Marte get traded? Well the Braves had to trade him; a guy named Chipper was kind of playing his position on a 4 year contract… The RedSox? They never intended on keeping him and instead got him with the main purpose being to trade him to Cle if they could get Coco. In essence it was a three team trade; the second part was just stalled a bit because of the 5th and 6th players involved.

Marte played a small portion of last year and finished quite well; he has all the talent in the world and will be fine ~ almost every scout doesn’t pick you as the best prospect in baseball if you’re a bum afterall.

It’s funny though, even if he doesn’t turn out to be much how could anyone argue that Theo is a genius for this deal? Once the team is able to dump Crisp (like they have been trying to do) they will have, well… nothing to show for Renteria & Shoopach. The Braves, Indians and Padres all got very solid players and thank the Sox for getting involved!

[Ripwa]

Alright, Theo sucks and that trade for Coco was stupid. But, Marte does not have all the talent in the world. He plays the best hitters position in baseball, currently, and his numbers do not translate to great hitter. His career OPS in the minors is only .832. I understand these numbers aren't always the end all be all, but they are still pretty telling. He hasn't dominated at any level and his glove is less than advertised. He can be an everyday player in the majors, yes, but he seems like another guy the scouts were just wrong about.

[Gregy606]

I said I wanted some of these young PITCHERS (how do you get Marte a position player, from Miller/Carmona/Slocum?) to come up and get league minimum, and if they dont work out, so be it. I'm not gonna go any further, b/c you guys are taking the least relevent facts (like Jake's 44 Wins a truly poor way to deduct how "GOOD" a pitcher is) And i'll say it again, if you watch the Indians you KNOW Andy Marte is not even close to major league ready. He has rock hands, and no plate approach. I do like his arm, but thats about it. I expect Blake to be play 3B by the end of the month(and he's no great defender). If you want my opinion, I'd rather keep the better players we've developed. Jake has an injury history with his arm, C.C. doesn't. Period. And for those who thought we'd be trading Westbrook he has "significant trade protection"- PD. if someone wants to continue this rationally thats fine, but i'm not arguing with trolls who clearly aren't even familiar with the team.

[Gregy606]

As a side note did you see Marte's error just now. Overuns a routine pop-out and lets the ball hit him in the wrist and Thome makes it to second. Konerko follows with a base hit. A critical mistake in a 2-0 game. He did look a little better in his first at-bat today taking some pitches, but he's not ready yet.

[bravesbeast]

Did you really just comment that the wins a pitcher gets in one of the least relevant stats in determining how good he is. I think you are getting reality and fantasy mixed up. This is not fantasy baseball, where wins is just another category and whip and era matter just as much. This is reality, and in reality westbrook has contributed 44 wins to the Indians over the past 3 years. Also in reality, the only stat that is relevant is wins and losses when it comes to the team. So to say that wins has minimum relevance is about as ignorant a comment as one can make. You need to realize that the process is think then type.

[darkstar1661]

Uh, what is your malfunction?

Jakes leading in wins? Huh??? That’s not quite all I said man… here I’ll say it again:

2nd in ERA with a 4.01 average his last three years! (as far as those starters we have had)
1st in IP with 638.2 over the last three years! (as far as those starters we have had)
1st in GS over the last three years! (as far as those starters we have had)
2nd in Wins over the last three years! (as far as those starters we have had)
Led league in shutouts last year!
Was 3rd in league with 3 CGs last year!
Was 16th in the AL and 37th in MLB as far as ERA last year!

Lets look at some other pitchers in the AL over the last three years:
3.95, 44-31, 100GS, 686.0 IP, 8 CG ~~~ Mark Buehrle
4.01, 44-34, 96 GS, 638.2 IP, 10 CG ~~~ ***Westbrook***
4.01, 39-27, 91 GS, 599.0 IP, 7 CG ~~~ Tim Hudson
4.04, 49-25, 98 GS, 611.0 IP, 3 CG ~~~ Kenny Rogers
4.05, 41-34, 103GS, 662.1 IP, 0 CG ~~~ Barry Zito
4.07, 44-28, 97 GS, 654.1 IP, 4 CG ~~~ Freddy Garcia
4.30, 48-28, 97 GS, 649.1 IP, 5CG ~~~ John Garland
4.40, 32-39, 96 GS, 602.0 IP, 4 CG ~~~ Nate Robertson
4.40, 41-25, 93 GS, 571.0 IP, 2CG ~~~ Jose Contreras
4.49, 39-34, 95 GS, 587.0 IP, 6 CG ~~~ Jeremy Bonderman
4.51, 28-22, 66 GS, 375.1 IP, 1 CG ~~~ Orlando Hernandez
4.60, 39-23, 82 GS, 524.0 IP, 8 CG ~~~ Mark Mulder
4.72, 36-37, 97 GS, 616.1 IP, 4 CG ~~~ Javier Vazquez
So Jake stacks up like this…
1st in CG
2nd in ERA
3rd in Wins
4th in IP
7th in GS

Now as you can see, 2004-06 there is nobody with a much better ERA… The only ones you will really find will be the likes of Santana, Halladay and CC, and then of course some of the guys like Harden and Verlander who haven’t pitched but a portion of the time. Notice how only Buehrle has a better ERA (by .06) out of all those starters who were considered parts of ‘amazing rotations’. He is also one of the best Innings and CG guys out there and brings in a good chunk of wins for the team!

Do you now see how foolish you make yourself look with your claims about Jake’s supposed ERA problems? Look at that again and tell me you aren’t impressed by his numbers! Foolish would be letting that go by not resigning him BELOW MARKET VALUE!

Now, a couple other things…
Jake’s injury history vs that of Sabathia? Jake has had one extremely common, minor surgery 5 years ago and you’re afraid of arm problems but CC who has had 3 leg problems in the last 2 years isn’t a concern? Huh? If you want to learn a little something about baseball, pitchers leg strength is extremely important and recurring leg injuries to a pitcher (esp one of CCs weight) is a major sign of concern! Does that mean I wouldn’t want him on the team? No… but it is so much more of a concern than that extremely common surgery Jake had 5 years ago it’s not even funny!

Then, you want some combination of Miller/Carmona/Slocum plus an unknown Sowers all in the rotation yet still expect us to compete? And you want this mainly because they are paid league minimum? You yourself agreed that we don’t know how they will perform, but you want them to be in the rotation over a proven winner just because the winner makes a little bit of money? So why would we try to keep CC then, his contract will hurt the club much, much more than Jakes! If you want to make a case for starters to not be on the team make it for Lee and Byrd ~ not Westbrook though; you’re just making yourself look really unintelligent!

Oh and you wanted to mention Marte’s perceived shortcomings based off 6 games this year ~ not me… I mentioned he will be a improvement based off his Buffalo, 2006 and preseason showing; you want to mention 6 unusual games to start the year as if it’s a tell-tell sign as though he will be no good. Have you even seen a game before this year?

But you go one to say I’m a troll who doesn’t know anything about the team? Are you kidding me??? I obviously know more about this team then you could ever dream of, and just because you have apparently watched 6 games you feel you can make all these conclusions as to how badly the FO is running the club because they signed one of the better starters in the AL to a below-market extension? Are all your decisions based off 1/27th of the story or do you actually look at the entire picture once in a while?

[darkstar1661]

Ripwa, what are you expecting out of Marte? See, I’m under the impression that we should expect something in the range of Grady as far as hitting goes, just well rounded solid all-around production with a big upside. I look at these lines and see that as a possibility:
04 GRN (AA) 450 PA, .269/.364/.525 ~ 28 2B, 23 HR, 58/105 BB/SO, +7 Def
05 RIC (AAA) 460 PA, .275/.372/.506 ~ 26 2B, 20 HR, 64/83 BB/SO, +6 Def
06 BUF (AAA) 394 PA, .261/.322/.451 ~ 23 2B, 15 HR, 34/81 BB/SO, +7 Def after an absolute horrible start following the trade

His Walk to Strikeout rate is very strong for a young hitter with power, his OBP in turn is extremely high despite what isn’t an amazing BA and the power is there to be developed on. Oh, and his Def has always been well above average for the position. Speed is the only tool he is really missing, and he isn’t a slump there, he just doesn’t use it at all.

So far we have seen him play in an accumulative ½ season spread over three years of Sept call-ups ~ hardly enough to get comfortable in the majors by any means. Many great players have shown horrible stats in similar situations and I think just maybe I’ll watch him for a while before I say he doesn’t have the tools to be a very solid player with amazing potential.

[darkstar1661]

***should have said WHAT AMOUNTS TO 3 Sept callups***

[zubes007]

Enough with the freaking dissertations...

The point is that even if the salary is a little hefty, any time that you can lock up a decent pitcher for a sensible contract and a less that long-term commitment, you HAVE TO DO IT in this market.

[Gregy606]

So you know I was calling bravesbeast a troll, not you darkstar, sorry I wrote that kinda badly (Had to get to work, time crunch). Anyways I'm not sure what all this fantasy talk is your dreaming about, but would you say C.C. is worse than Jake b/c he has less wins over a period of time? NO, obviously not, thats why I said wins are rather irrelavent to how good a pitcher really is. Kevin Milwood lead the league in era a couple years ago and lost more games than he won(9-11). Do you think Westbrook had a better year that year b/c his record gave him 6 more wins? Well it sounds like you do, so i'll just tell you, your wrong. I understand that the tribe brass has been trumping up Marte's glove, but it's not their yet. I'm not major league scout, but i've been watching the game long enough to know when a guy doesn't take a good route to the ball, or has hard hands. I see these things with Marte and couple that with the fact that he will struggle to hit .230 and I can rationally see he's not a major league ready player yet. He does have a lot of good tools, but they are raw. This isn't based on 6 games, but over the almost 60 games he has played with us. Which I feel is ample time to get a feel for where he is as a player. Now onto the pitching, my idea wasn't too call up all these kids, but to mix them in during the year and see who works. When Jake's contract was up, let him walk, and stockpile the money for C.C. and Hafner. Basically whoever pans out, use him instead of jake, who i'll say a million times, should be on a team with a decent infield defense. Nothing against jake as a player, but this is just the way the indians should spend their few dollars. Keep your best talent, part ways with the replaceble parts, or the ones that just don't fit into your scheme. You go on to say "I obviously know more about this team then you could ever dream of" yet you think the star pitcher on "our" team has been suffering from leg problem???? Just to shed a little light on you they were two (not three) oblique strains....thats around your stomach in simpleton terms. How does an Indians expert such as yourself not know these things??? So go on and throw a bunch of numbers and other fluff at me, but when it comes down to it I'll tell you this now darkstar, and I have learned this from the one conversation between us. Your Indians skills are about as polished as Andy Marte is at the plate.

[darkstar1661]

First off, sorry if I’m not an anatomy expert; I believed that an oblique strain was related to an upper hip problem ~ my bad. You point out that I must not know much about the team because of this ~ not sure how not knowing a medical diagnosis means lack of team knowledge, but whatever…

Secondly;
“September 29, 2006 C.C. Sabathia underwent surgery Friday to repair a torn meniscus in his right knee, according to the AP”
That sounds like a leg problem to me!!! (and it also becomes the 3rd problem in 2 years I mentioned ~ ie the one you said didn’t exist…) But being such a knowledgeable fan as you claim you knew this right…

Third, when did I ever say that Westbrook is better than CC? I’ve been telling you how valuable Jake is, not comparing him to Sabathia in any way. And why do you keep focusing on Wins? I have mentioned wins in a pile of superior stats Jake has put up compared to other pitchers in the league (not including CC), not focusing on them at all! You are the one who continues to ignore everything but the wins… Maybe you have a difficult time comprehending things though so I’ll post it again:

3.95, 44-31, 100GS, 686.0 IP, 8 CG ~~~ Mark Buehrle
4.01, 44-34, 96 GS, 638.2 IP, 10 CG ~~~ ***Westbrook***
4.01, 39-27, 91 GS, 599.0 IP, 7 CG ~~~ Tim Hudson
4.02, 34-29, 89 GS, 548.0 IP, 3 CG ~~~ Millwood
4.04, 49-25, 98 GS, 611.0 IP, 3 CG ~~~ Kenny Rogers
4.05, 41-34, 103GS, 662.1 IP, 0 CG ~~~ Barry Zito
4.07, 44-28, 97 GS, 654.1 IP, 4 CG ~~~ Freddy Garcia
4.20, 30-27, 81 GS, 498.2 IP, 3 CG ~~~ Byrd
4.30, 48-28, 97 GS, 649.1 IP, 5CG ~~~ John Garland
4.40, 32-39, 96 GS, 602.0 IP, 4 CG ~~~ Nate Robertson
4.40, 41-25, 93 GS, 571.0 IP, 2CG ~~~ Jose Contreras
4.49, 39-34, 95 GS, 587.0 IP, 6 CG ~~~ Jeremy Bonderman
4.50, 46-24, 98 GS, 582.2 IP, 2 CG ~~~ Cliff Lee
4.51, 28-22, 66 GS, 375.1 IP, 1 CG ~~~ Orlando Hernandez
4.60, 39-23, 82 GS, 524.0 IP, 8 CG ~~~ Mark Mulder
4.72, 36-37, 97 GS, 616.1 IP, 4 CG ~~~ Javier Vazquez
4.82, 28-23, 81 GS, 458.2 IP, 2 CG ~~~ Gil Meche
5.24, 18-29, 80 GS, 455.0 IP, 2 CG ~~~ Elarton
Again, I excluded CC as well as Halladay and Santana because they are on another level ERA wise. I did add in Meche since others had mentioned him; not sure how he and Jake could be talked about as being similar though with a .81 ERA, 15 GS, 180 IP & 8 CG difference over the last 3 years…

So once more I will ask you to take a look at that rundown. Look at it long and hard and tell me that we shouldn’t want Jake on our team because we have kids who might do ok! I ask you this, should these kids be expected to put up better 3yr numbers than Buehrle, Hudson, Millwood, Rogers, Zito, Garcia, Byrd, Garland, Robertson, Contreras, Bonderman, C.Lee, Mulder, etc? Well they better because if they don’t they will not be contributing what Westbrook has! BTW, how much are all those guys making? And you are worried about paying Westbrook a rather low 11Mil a year? Shoot he makes 6.1 this year so it’s only 5 Mil more than our current salary ~ ie about what we were going to pay Fulke. Let me ask you this though, would you be upset if we had signed Zito, Buehrle or Garcia to an 11Mil contract? If your answer is no then I can’t imagine why you are upset with the Jake deal…

But you keep saying:
A) you want kids to have a chance and
B) that Jake’s money will hurt the team
~~~ Both of these things are just flat out stupid!!! They will both be taken care of by one event ~ not picking up the option on Paul Byrd for 08! The Westbrook contract will not increase our payroll from this year; in essence it’s just replacing Byrd & his current salary. Honestly, 07 Byrd + 07 Jake (13Mil) is more than 08 Jake + 08 Carmona/Slocum/Miller (about 11Mil) so if anything we saved 2 Million! Even if we sign CC to a 15Mil a year deal replacing his current 08 salary our rotation would still be only 5Mil more than it currently is (Currently 25Mil, would be 30Mil) ~ or about what we save by replacing Nixon with a kid from buffalo...

Listen, I know you just don’t want to think the Westbrook contract could be good for the team because you have closed your mind off to it before it even happened, but how long will you keep ignoring the truth in your attempt to feel “right”? Everyone in this thread thinks differently than you and your arguments hold no water what so ever. For someone who claims to know so much about this club you are coming off as very clueless man…

BTW, are you watching the game now, or see yesterdays game, or the one before it? Carmona, Danks and now Masset haven’t looked that good have they? Well, that’s what kids (even the highly touted ones) usually look like in their first years of starting… How many do you want in our rotation again?

[darkstar1661]

Oh, and RE Marte…

You must not have been paying too close of attention last year if you were actually watching the games; after about 2-3 weeks of jitters Andy looked very strong on the field and started to look much better at the plate.

Remember stats like this though:
Thome .255/.298/.367, .205/.275/.299, .266/.385/.474 & .268/.359/.523 in first four trips to the bigs…
Lofton .203/.253/.216 in first trip…
Belle .225/.269/.394 & .174/.208/.304 in first two trips…
Manny .170/.200/.30 in first trip…
Baerga .260/.300/.394 in first trip…
… and so many more.

… let him get comfortable and he will be fine, he’s just trying to do too much right now after all his hype. It’s the whole Phillips thing all over again, and if we give up on him without trying to help him through his struggles (Andy has a much better attitude atleast!) then he will never go anywhere; the team will continue to play him on and off with Blake until he’s comfortable then all will be well.

[Gregy606]

Trust me I couldn't read your boring, and rather meaningless stats again (I really predicted that well, didn't I). If I needed your advice, I would be a deeply misguided Indians fan. By the way how is Cliff Lee's brain removal surgury going??? Watch the team first, then try to preach about it when you get a better grasp.

[Gregy606]

As a side note its very clear you thought the oblique strains were "leg problems", you weren't speaking of C.C.'s minor surgury this winter(which he never missed any time for) which still doesn't make the 3 leg injuries you were speaking of. I was VERY aware C.C. had a very minor surgery this year, but found it rather irrelevent b/c he never missed time, and the injury was much less significant than even say...bone chips in a pitcher's arm. You had the idea that one of the star players on our team has been missing time the last couple years with leg problems. You were wrong. You don't follow the team closely....I know that, you don't have to tell me.

[darkstar1661]

Again you choose to focus on bashing me, Sabathia and everything but the point; but I guess I understand since you are having such a hard time providing anything which would point to Jake’s contract being bad for the team…

The truth is that either Westbrook or Byrd was going to be in our rotation next year and the other spot was going to be open for a kid. Which would you rather have?

Now, I’ve already shown how Byrd+Westbrook vs Westbrook+Kid saves us about 2 million over this years salary, but if you want to think of it in terms of 08 then I guess you can think of it like this; Byrd would have cost us 8Mil to pick up his option, Jake is now costing us 11; we are looking at 3mil more going with Westbrook...
That brings our commitment to 54Mil while only losing Nixon and Blake ~ two spots which will probably be filled by kids.
That 54mil is in turn 11mil less than what we are paying the 07 club, and giving CC a raise to 15Mil would leave us with 60mil commited.
So, we now have 5mil till we reach our 07 salary and need to pay Hafner. Ideally he accepts somewhere in the 15/yr as well and we are spending 5mil more than we did in 07 to keep everyone. Well, we had 5mil more this year to play with (evident by Fulke’s contract) so that doesn’t seem to be a problem… Oh, this scenario also is based on us picking up the options on Hernandez and Fultz, if we don’t that’s another 4.5Mil and brings us right back to what we are paying this year.

Does it cut us close? Yeah it does for 08, but the fact we only have about 35Mil committed to 09 while not losing anyone gives us plenty of room to offer CC and Pronk very good money ~ besides who says that the 08 contracts would be replaced off either’s current contract anyway. If they stayed the same our 08 payroll would be a very small 54mil while losing only Blake, Nixon and Byrd, all who would be replaced from within.

I’m sorry, your “it hurts us financially” claim just doesn’t pan out. Couple that with the fact that we want to win means we are not going to go into the season with 2 unproven kids in the rotation, making your “I want to see the kids play” just as empty. You also seem to be overlooking the fact that the FO has stated multiple times that they will not have one player making all the money and that they will not offer huge contracts weather they have the money or not ~ so even if we pinched every penny possible it wouldn’t mean we resigned Hafner or Sabathia anyway. Under the range the team might be willing to go up to (15Mil/yr max) we can have all three and the team will not suffer one bit.

You harping on this contract is just reactionary with little to no bases in the truth of the matter, and honestly makes you look like a pessimistic moron…
… well that and the fact that you think knee surgery on someone who is seriously over-weight isn’t a concern as long as it didn’t happen during the season. **rolls eyes**

[Gregy606]

Read my posts, all I've done is explain why I think this is bad for the team. If you think were gonna keep all three, you're too optimisitic.

[darkstar1661]

If CC and Pronk are willing to take less than 15M/yr then yes we can, and will sign both; if they are wanting more then that, then its not worth keeping them around anyway.

But you didn’t explain anything or give a good argument as to why signing Jake was not a good idea; you just attempted to bash Westbrook while screaming “kids, kids, kids”…

“I really just dont see a point in keeping a 4.20-4.50 ERA innings eater at 11 mil. per year, when we have 3 guys who can be making league minimum in order to keep the best players we have developed in the last few years.”

“Westbrook hasn't been injured lately Roto, but coupled with the fact that Adam Miller has the potential to post all-star numbers NOW, this seems kinda ridiculous”

“Sure i'll take westbrook but why if we have kids waiting to make league minimum. I rather see what we have in these kids than watch another one of jake's 4.50 era seasons.”

“What do you get if our 33 Mil. man gets hurt tomorrow? or next year? or next month?.”

“I'm not gonna go any further, b/c you guys are taking the least relevent facts (like Jake's 44 Wins a truly poor way to deduct how "GOOD" a pitcher is)”

~~~ yep pretty strong argument there to show, well that you just don’t like him that much and instead think we should have a rotation of CC and a bunch of minor leaguers.

See, that’s why I question if you know anything about this team or are a true Tribe fan, if you were an Indians fan for more then the last couple months you would never be asking to rebuild again ~ esp when we don’t have enough starters ready to take over! But you are telling us that we should be doing just that instead of fielding the best possible team, your reasoning behind this boils down to “its now costing us an extra 3M in 08 when we could just hold open tryouts for the kids”…

Oh and you keep saying these rotation shots should be given to Carmona (hasn’t looked very good in his chances so far), Miller (yes is about ready but will have Byrds spot in the rotation next year anyway) and…
Brian Slocumb??? ~ A 26YO who isn’t even a fulltime starter! He has only started 35 of his 56 games the last 2yrs while posting a 4.04 ERA in 214 innings in AA & AAA!

We have some great looking kids, but they are all a couple years away (Carmona/Miller excluded) at best and will not be ready until late 08-early 09 in a best case scenario. Slocumb? Well if you don’t mind a 5.50+ERA maybe…

So since your whole argument is that you want to see the kids and not pay Westbrook, what would your 2008 rotation be?

CC / Lee / Sowers (currently 1/2yr experience) / Miller (no ML experience) / Carmona (1/2yr with bad results) with Slocum (so-so bullpen prospect) as 6th?

Then what happens if CC thinks he deserves a 130m/7yr deal and walks in 09 with at least one of Sowers/Carmona/Miller not working out? Rebuild yet again? Hope some other kid might do ok and go with a rotation of Lee and a bunch of kids with less than 2 full years experience? How well did you think out your idea?

[Gregy606]

"Also take into account the Indians also do not have the defense to MAKE Westbrook a sub 4.00 ERA type guy."

"I'd like something more like 5 years for C.C. I really just dont see a point in keeping a 4.20-4.50 ERA innings eater at 11 mil. per year, when we have 3 guys who can be making league minimum in order to keep the best players we have developed in the last few years. C.C. has shown a lot of interest in staying in Cleveland which could mean he would accept a discount."

"I'm not saying Westbrook isn't worth 11 Mil. to someone like the Yankees, but when your the Indians who rely on a solid farm system, it's time to cut ties with a guy who's pitching style isn't matched well with your team."

"And for those who thought we'd be trading Westbrook he has "significant trade protection"- PD."

"What do you get if our 33 Mil. man gets hurt tomorrow? or next year? or next month? Nothing is for sure, the money could be gone. Or Westbrook could just start to stink. Either way their are plenty of ways for him to lose value. Anyone familiar with the tribe knows were not signing all 3."

"would you say C.C. is worse than Jake b/c he has less wins over a period of time? NO, obviously not, thats why I said wins are rather irrelavent to how good a pitcher really is. Kevin Milwood lead the league in era a couple years ago and lost more games than he won(9-11). Do you think Westbrook had a better year that year b/c his record gave him 6 more wins? Well it sounds like you do, so i'll just tell you, your wrong."

"Now onto the pitching, my idea wasn't too call up all these kids, but to mix them in during the year and see who works. When Jake's contract was up, let him walk, and stockpile the money for C.C. and Hafner. Basically whoever pans out, use him instead of jake, who i'll say a million times, should be on a team with a decent infield defense."

"I said I wanted SOME of these young PITCHERS (how do you get Marte a position player, from Miller/Carmona/Slocum?) to come up and get league minimum, and if they dont work out, so be it."
***In other words sign a free agent a-la Kevin Millwood if we need an extra starter in the coming years (No I'm not saying were gonna get another Kevin Millwood season outta whoever we find). But if Byrd regains his solid command 8-Mil. option could be a real bargain in '08.***

[darkstar1661]

Ok, so your plan is to insert a rookie while picking up the option on then-38YO Byrd at 8M ~instead~ of signing then-30YO Westbrook to 11M and having the same kid...

... then you hope CC is asking for something in our price-range (meaning what we are willing to go up to) and if not just go the FA route each year after to fill holes in a rotation that would look like:
Lee – Sowers/FA/Kid - FA/Kid – FA/Kid – FA-Kid
(I left Sowers as an unknown because he still hasn’t pitched more than ½ year)

Nice… So you:
Upside - CC / Lee / ??? / ??? / ???
~~ Downside - Lee / ??? / ??? / ??? / ???

Instead of our current:
Upside - CC / Lee / Westbrook / ??? / ???
~~ Downside - Lee / Westbrook / ??? / ??? / ???

[Gregy606]

Yea, are you on another planet? I think Westbrook is very expendible, haven't you caught on yet? Hard to believe you are so high on Marte, and not Sowers.

[darkstar1661]

Yes, I get it ~ you think Westbrook is expendable because…
A) he's a ground-baller and that just doesn’t work on this team so instead you want Carmona ~ another GB pitcher with bad ML experience so far.
B) Because he’s 30YO making 11M and instead you want the Tribe to sign 37YO Byrd for 8M
C) You fell like he is going to get hurt because 5 years ago he missed 3 games with a very common minor surgery
D) He’s only a 15W, 4.01 ERA, 210+IP guy and you think we will get better out of anyone we give a tryout to; including so-so reliever Brian Slocumb.
E) You just don’t like him

And you would do this in hopes that we might be able to possibly offer CC enough money. If not, oh well ~ we just go with a rotation of Lee and a bunch of under-2yr guys! Yay, rebuilding again!!! … ***rolls eyes***

Brilliant strategies there man, why don’t you have a job in a FO somewhere?

BTW, cute how you trolled over on the Hafner thread… but didn’t you complain about that kind of thing earlier here?

[darkstar1661]

oh, and I’m afraid to mention it because I dont feel like allowing you to keep changing the subject anytime you cant make a point and I know thats what you are going to do; but when did I ever say I was down on Sowers? He’s got about ½ a season ~ I love the kid, but he’s an unknown!

And yeah, an unknown is a much bigger problem in the rotation, esp when his replacement is an unknown as well! When we have one of the top 3 offenses in baseball while playing Boone at 3rd I dont think Marte is going to be dragging the team down any no matter what he does…

[Gregy606]

I don't want Carmona, I want whatever of these kids WORKS(can't believe I've had to explain this about 5 times).....It seems your having reading comprehention problems. And yes, I like byrd (if he re-gains his old command!!!) at one year 8 Mil., instead of a mediocre pitcher getting 3 years, 33Mil. If you pay attemtion he throws about 85 mph, so age really isn't much of a concern for a soft tossing pitcher like him. Again if you payed any attention you'd know I said he "COULD be a real bargain."

I have never changed the subject, I have consistenly gave you reasons why I don't like the signing, I can't help it if your not paying attention (as your posts seem to indicate over and over). I made you look stupid on the hafner topic b/c you choose to contradict yourself from a comment a day ago. If you can't keep your story in tact, that's your problem.

[darkstar1661]

Dude, you have to be the most clueless person I have ever met...

... So now you dont really want Carmona either? So we can take Carmona & Slocumb out of “I want to see Miller/Carmona/Slocumb in the rotation” claim? Who exactly do you want in the rotation then? If we didn’t resign Westbrook and still lost out on CC then you would have only Lee, Sowers and Miller in the rotation? Then what, hit the FA market hoping we can sign someone comparable to Jake under 11M? Did you even pay attention this offseason??? Name 3 pitchers with comparable stats who signed for much less last year; go ahead and try…

He does have a bit more upside I guess (although he has only pitched in a great pitchers park with the biggest foul ground territory in baseball), but Zito would probably be an ok comparison as his Age plus ERA, IP, WHIP, W/L, BB/SO, BABIP and WARP averages over the last 3 years have all been similar ~ what did he sign for? Javier Vasquez hasn’t been as strong and he re-signed for about the same… Gil Meche hasn’t been as good and got about the same… So replacing Westbrook would cost us at least what Westrbook is costing us and probably more (esp with inflation), but paying more for possibly less is fine as long as we don’t commit to it today? Oh, well of course you think re-signing Bryd *incase* he regains his command for 3M less is a smart move and that 3M will somehow magically make that big of a difference in the CC deal… AND you point out that Paul throws 85MPH implying he’s not a risk even though his career has been filled with nothing but injuries? See why its so hard to respect what you are saying?

BTW, you tried to come up with all these reasons why Westbrook isn’t a good player to sign giving us your mystery injury claim, team defense theories and the “kids” argument (that you cant name but 1 ML-R Starter you would want) to discredit Jake but do you realize that not only is his IP towards the top of the league each year and he always ranks so high in CG (these things limit the use of the bullpen, a weak spot on our team incase you don’t know) but he has also increased his BB/SO ratio each of the last two years meaning his control is getting even better! Oh and he has always induced a top-ranking amount of DPs year in and year out, yep he’s someone who we wouldn’t want on our club…

So anyway, you did nothing but try and change the topic, instead attempting to focus on Marte’s plate approach, Westbrook’s value vs Sabathia’s, my misunderstanding of the oblique strains, my trust in Sowers, etc. You’re now trying to mention some idiotic reply in the Hafner thread to try to discredit me when the two posts don’t contradict each other one bit ~ in fact they pretty much say the same thing! WE DON’T NEED HIM BUT WE SHOULD DO WHAT WE CAN TO RESIGN HIM! That’s all both said, one gave and option if we cant resign him, one said I would like him to sign…

You are nothing more than a Troll who cant back up any of his claims and instead attempts to discredit others to make yourself feel better. You don’t have an argument (well one you can show anything to back up anyway) and instead just repeat the same “I want to see kids, lets go cheap” rant while avoiding all the challenges to your theory. You started by saying “we wont have enough money” and when shown we will you ignore it… you started by say “I want more kids” and when shown we don’t have that option yet you ignore it… you started by saying “Jake isn’t very good” and when shown otherwise you ignore it… You even challenged Roto, trying to imply your Injury/Money/Minors/Defense theories when he said it’s a “slam dunk” while providing nothing more than, well what boils down to “I just don’t think so”.

Don’t bother replying, you have yet to say anything that makes sense and it’s just not worth trying to talk logic with you. Everyone else on this thread thinks it’s a good idea yet here you are still making your empty argument. Next time you want to start a debate you might want to learn a little more about the Farm System and depth chart, FA markets and tendencies, Players Histories, value of things like IP, CG, W etc and that 9 times out of 10 a kid wont pan out to be much…

[Gregy606]

"... So now you dont really want Carmona either? So we can take Carmona & Slocumb out of “I want to see Miller/Carmona/Slocumb in the rotation” claim? -Darkstar1661

"I don't want Carmona, I WANT WHATEVER OF THESE KIDS WORKS" - gregy606

See the difference between your world and the real world?

[Gregy606]

I got a couple sentences into reading your post and gave up. You seem flustered, and desperate. You have consistently made simple errors about the team (i.e. C.C. injury/Your changing opinion of weather we need Hafner) you supposedly follow. It's just too much. I can't argue with someone who either can't read or doesn't want too.

P.S.
"We do have the defense to make Westbrook a better ERA guy now. With Marte & Barfield added to an ideally ‘fixed’ Peralta our infield D is looking much better than it has recently. Our big D problems come in the OF because of a couple of our platooners ~ it’s the flyball pitchers who will probably suffer this year."- Darkstar1661

Looks like I found out how the Marte subject got brought up....What a surprise, you were wrong about it b/c you didn't even remember your own posts from a day ago. Crazy how I keep catching these things isn't it?

"Anyways I'm not sure what all this fantasy talk is your dreaming about, but would you say C.C. is worse than Jake b/c he has less wins over a period of time? NO, obviously not, thats why I said wins are rather irrelavent to how good a pitcher really is. Kevin Milwood lead the league in era a couple years ago and lost more games than he won(9-11). Do you think Westbrook had a better year that year b/c his record gave him 6 more wins? Well it sounds like you do, so i'll just tell you, your wrong."-Gregy606

Is everything that makes you look bad off topic to you, b/c this is clearly part of my arguement (Keep the best players we've developed)??

Jeremy Sowers has EARNED a rotation spot. Andy Marte has done nothing to earn himself the starting third base job. Thats why when you consistently question Sowers ability, and show blind faith in Marte(who has another error tonight, not that you watch the games anyways) your going to be questioned.

[Gregy606]

P.S.S.

Marte now has two errors tonight.

[darkstar1661]

Dude,

A) Carmona = Groundball pitcher. Most of your argument against Westbrook? Oh yeah he’s a groundball pitcher and that doesn’t work on our team…

B) You gave us three options for kids and only 2 of them are even starters; but you also have 3 holes in your rotation if you don’t keep Jake, CC walks and Byrd doesn’t “regain his control”. That’s a huge hole in your argument and would take a bunch of last minute scrambling to get past. We would in turn almost certainly be forced to use Carmona and Miller if they were doing good or not. Those problems would also be in a rotation where we don’t know what Sowers will do, the experts predict in the 4.5-5.5 ERA range with about 160IP.

C) I said we have a better defense in 07 than we had in 06, and it’s true! Marte (+7), Barfield (+10), Peralta (in better shape) is better than Boone (-7), Belliard (+1), and last years slow Peralta!!! See the numbers? So I will repeat; the players we have are better defenders! Do I need to write it bolder so maybe you will understand? THEY ARE BETTER DEFENDERS! So anyway, you decided to take this statement and make it all about what Marte has done with his bat and how many errors he has made in the freakishly unusual first week ~ IE you wanted to change the subject and focus on something not important! The only thing that really matters is that he’s better than Boone ~ that means an 07 improvement, period!

But since you have the brain capacity of an ant I’ll clarify that one a little more… Saying “we improved defense with Marte and Barfield” doesn’t mean “tell me what you think about Marte’s hitting ability”. You gave me an answer to a question I didn’t ask, or in other words you changed the subject!

D) I seem flustered? Hehehe – whatever… Did I change my opinion about Hafner? No… you’re trying to say that’s the case, but its not… Did I not completely understand one injury? Yeah, and who cares! Does that somehow make a point for you? Nope, that’s you grasping at straws; while (dare I say)… changing the subject! Besides CC has still had freaking Knee surgery less than 6 months ago! Oh, but that didn’t happen during the season so it doesn’t count right? Yeah, almost forgot about you telling us that…

E) You actually reposted your moronic “you think Jake is better than CC” remark when nothing ever said in this entire thread ever implied I did? Just changing the subject again trying to find anyway to discredit me huh? That’s classic though ~ you make something up, claim I said it, and then say its wrong in an attempt to discredit me? Now that makes you look foolish… But let’s just move onto the second part of this one…

F) Part of your argument is that CC is better than Jake? Ok, well duh! How does that ever relate to not keep Jake though? Ok, Sizemore is the best player on the team, do we get ride of everyone else and have Grady as the only Indian on the field? Oh, but you only want players that we developed so maybe you only want to get ride of Jake… and Sizemore… and Pronk… and Barfield… and Lee… and Kelly… and Marte… and Choo… and… well you get the point! Hum; that part of the argument doesn’t make sense…

G) Sowers didn’t earn his spot you buffoon! Jason Johnson earned his way out of his! JJ’s bad play opened up a place for Sowers! They wanted to leave Jeremy in Buf for almost all of 06, not have him up for 2nd half of the season! Has Sowers played great ball? Yeah, and I think the kid will be much better then what the experts predict ~ but he’s got less than ½ year experience and that equals a huge question mark!!! His peripheral stats are bad and almost all the projection sites are saying he will probably have an ERA around 4.80 with much more chance of him being much worse then ever doing even close to what he pulled off last year, but you knew that right?

BTW, do you even know what type of pitcher Sowers is? Do you think his pitching style matches the club you claim is so bad on defense?

H) you’re not questioning me why I feel that Marte should be given more than 2 weeks in sub 50degree weather to prove himself, you’re trying to tell me he shouldn’t be given a shot. Also, I’ve never questioned Sower’s ability, I’ve only stated the truth (we don’t know how he will perform!). I also don’t see how the two relate to eachother either; who cares if its even average production out of Marte in the 9-hole ~ its a position we got nothing from last year while we were still one of the top offensive teams in the league! We don’t NEED Marte’s bat to win! Sowers on the other hand… If Jeremy struggles we could be in big trouble; a lot is resting on his shoulders. The team would like to get rid of Lee soon and want Byrd gone as he’s dead weight, CC/Jake/Sowers are supposed to be the foundation of our rotation for a couple more years with guys like Carmona and Miller being given a shot to make out the rest…

I) Could Miller be the best of them all? Maybe, but who knows since he has shown bad results in a couple stops up the ladder (you knew that too right?) He looked flat out horrible in 2005, had only minor success in a Captains uniform in 04 and got tore up in his only Buf start last year. He did pitch for a pretty low ERA in Akron last year, but with the talent level differential being so extreme that 2.76 equals out to only about a 4.17 (or what Jake put up in 06) Sadly, that’s the best Equivalent ERA he has put up in his minor league career… He’s a top pitching prospect, but he’s not a “sure thing” (there is no such thing anyway, but you know the term) and he is far from question free!

J) I have made more than a strong argument as to why signing Westbrook is a good idea; your argument of “I want to pay minor leaguers league minimum because Jake might get hurt and we didn’t develop him” just doesn’t mean a damn thing to anyone…

And I think that about covers everything. I have explained everything once again, ideally this time logic will click in your little brain ~ but I doubt it. I expect you will once again try to nit-pick over any little thing which wasn’t explained in 100% detail and try to somehow claim it means something completely different yet again. That will then become your next argument as to why I’m somehow wrong and you who haven’t said anything of use is somehow right… That’s what it’s all about with you afterall, you know you’re wrong ~ otherwise you wouldn’t be grasping for straws; but you just can’t admit it because you seem to have some inferiority complex. No one has agreed with your theory that this contract is bad for the team, you have no evidence to back up your claim that it is and instead you want to try to discredit me and resort to changing the subject to do so. It’s the classic 5yo method of trying to win an argument; it’s the bottom of the barrel in terms of intelligence… But that’s what I would expect from you since you apparently can’t even read! That brings us to our last point…

K) I TOLD YOU NOT TO REPLY TO ME! But since you seem to have such a hard time comprehending things I’ll repeat it again…

“Don’t bother replying, you have yet to say anything that makes sense and it’s just not worth trying to talk logic with you. Everyone else on this thread thinks it’s a good idea yet here you are still making your empty argument. Next time you want to start a debate you might want to learn a little more about the Farm System and depth chart, FA markets and tendencies, Players Histories, value of things like IP, CG, W etc and that 9 times out of 10 a kid wont pan out to be much…”

You’re a Troll, plain and simple. You’ve now even resorted to chasing me into other threads to try and make me look bad ~ truly pathetic man!

PS, I enjoyed writing this! It was pretty fun going over all my points again, and the fact that I’m fighting with someone who cant put two straight paragraphs on one subject together without straying from the point allowed me to actually find many things you said which made me laugh. But I’m done now… Again, don’t reply to this; you don’t have an argument and its over! (which means I should probably check back in about 10 mins to read your next post…)

[Gregy606]

"You did exactly what that definition states; you followed me here, posted no useful information and instead a solely argumentative post."-Darkstar1661

I think you need to go back and read again Dark. I posted MY opinion on the Westbrook topic. YOU choose to attack me, and my opinions. If you want to judge people's opinions, then grow up when someone judge's you. Especially when your "story" has so many consistency problems.

Seriously Go back and read!

P.S. I'm really glad troll, b/c I didn't even read it.

P.S.S. But I am glad I caught your P.S.

[darkstar1661]

hahaha, you’re so predictable dumbass...

ok so anyway, you chasing me into the Hafner thread trying to start a fight with me isn’t trolling? And I'm the real troll because I said I saw things differently on your Westbrook theory? Classic...

but since you seem to have to read things 12 times before you can grasp a concept I’ll post it yet again:

“I TOLD YOU NOT TO REPLY TO ME!”

[Gregy606]

YOU choose to attack me, and my opinions. If you want to judge people's opinions, then grow up when someone judge's you. Especially when your "story" has so many consistency problems.

Seriously Go back and read!

[darkstar1661]

hahaha, like the consistency problems you claimed in the other thread when you supplied two sentences that said the exact same thing?

but again:
“I TOLD YOU NOT TO REPLY TO ME!”