Erik Bedard Rumors

Santana rumors->Bedard rumors->Blanton rumors(?) When will it end?

markakis is going to be dead by the time the o's are contenders again

msk86,

I realize that you were trying to be funny but it's not at all. Baltimore is still within traditional Redskins country so, with the Sean Taylor tragedy within miles of Baltimore, your comment rings differently than it might in other parts.

I don't think anyone took msk86's comments that way and that was a little hyper-sensitive to even twist it like that. As a side note, even if something happened to Markakis that was unexpectedly tragic in ten years, it would still be before the Orioles could win. This team needs ALL young players and to plug holes with veterans in a season or two once you know who has developed to be good contributors to the club and who needs to be replaced. It's not rocket-science... The Mariners got REALLY bad when they brought in a bunch of young talent and now they KNOW where they need to fill holes. I don't like or agree with a lot of what Bavasi does, but at least he has a plan and is stickin' to it!

This doesn't sound too crazy. I'm sure they are just working out the kinks. And I think the reason Sherrill is in the deal is because, I think, the M's wanted him in it for some reason.......not sure though. Besides, the O's could use him at the trade deadline during the season to bring in some talent.

great, now another update. You know, it might not even be that the teams cant come to a deal, it might be the press and media throwing crazy rumors out there, and blowing up stories. It wouldn't be the first time. I'm sure both side are working very hard to get this done.

This and the santana trades have to be the most talked about poorly executed trades in the history of sports.

It's funny that before this trade Ms fans were touting TIllman bigtime as being a potential "#1" or "frontline stuff" pitcher. And more recently ever since these rumors he's been demoted to being a #2 potential guy.

if I was the Seatle Miners I call McFail up and tell him that the deal is off and to go some where else and waste somebody else time

Actually, this makes it sound like it might have been the M’s and Bavasi holding up the deal all along:

“He explains a tricky situation regarding the rules of making trades and passing physicals. Olney says the Orioles have asked the Mariners for an agreement where they would have have to make the trade if Adam Jones and George Sherrill passed their physicals. This written agreement could move things along.”

Why would the O’s force such a clause if they were the ones reluctant to make the deal? Where would that even come from if it wasn’t infact the M’s being the ones acting like they want to back out… To all those Angelos bashers ~ what does that do to your theories?

Haha geez darkstar, you just never quit, do you? He still deserves all the crap even if it does seem like all those rumors were just that. He still fked the franchise pretty much since he's been there and being wrong about his actions once certainly doesn't change that.

Reguardless, it certainly is refreshing to see, but I still want to see it before I completely believe it. If they can make up "rumors", then they can make anything up. Besides, they would only tell people what they wanted them to know. When it happens, that'll tell much more.

THE INDIANS!?!?! Very interesting.. what a 1-2 punch that would be with CC and Bedard. Now with Santana off the Twins.. that would lock up the AL Central

"Haha geez darkstar, you just never quit, do you? He still deserves all the crap even if it does seem like all those rumors were just that"

...Hey, I got tore into by a certain self proclaimed all-seeing psychic that insisted that Angelos was this big bad monster behind the scenes doing everything possible to make sure a deal for Bedard didnt go through. I had to read 7 page off-topic posts about the distant past which were somehow proving this despite the lack of evidence backing up said Angelos hangup in a Bedard deal. I was told I was wrong and basically a dumbass because Angelos is the obvious problem in all of this and how all of the updates to the contrary somehow just keep proving it was Angelos without doubt… I was told I was contradicting myself by making statements that I never even came close to making, and that the imaginary contradicting statements I allegedly gave somehow proved that Angelos was the only problem behind a deal…

Like I mentioned in the other thread, it has nothing to do with you ~ I just thought the fact that it might not really even have anything to do with the O’s organization anyway to be funny after what I went through from a certain unnamed clairvoyant prophet… :)

Indians eh? Had they gotten Bedard I'd put them as a favorite over Detroit. Sabathia, Bedard, Carmona... seriously! That's comparable to Maddux, Glavine, Smoltz in their prime. Damn that would be SICK!

From some of the stuff reported on this site and ESPN, it certainly seems like both the Twins preferred to trade Santana to the NL and he himself preferred to go to the NL. That could be why the Twins took the Mets deal.

The Yankees had Hughes, Melky and two of their best outfield prospects on the table and Boston had Ellsbury, Masterson and Lowrie on the table, yes? Both of those offered up three top organizational prospects, so Bedard should at least be worth that even though the Twins chose to take the Mets deal instead.

bjsguess,
My point was that if you take Johan Santana at his word, then it was now or never for that trade. Does he change his mind later? Who knows?

Bedard can be traded now, at the deadline, or even next spring training.

That being said, I think the offer is fair (Jones, Sherill, Tillman, and Butler). I'd even see if I could ask for Chen, offering a minor league pitcher back (McCrory/Burres).

The Twins got screwed (I think Santana is worth far more than what they got) because the clock was near midnight. Bedard's clock is far far from it.

Also, darkstar, there are two ways to take what has been going on with the Bedard talks, either Jones was correct and they had a deal and Angelos squashed it or Angelos is a saint and Jones talke out of turn.

If you say there was no deal, which to take your stance on Angelos, you would then have to view this as a no-deal on Sunday. Even though Jones was quoted in the paper, you still believe that there was no deal. How could this be that there is no deal?! "Jones never said that or he must have been misquoted." (paraphrased) So you mean that the source was unreliable?!

Yet you believe the second article to be reliable, what was the difference?! Same writer, same paper, same informant, so what's different enough to believe Jones retracted those statements on his own through e-mail?!

Okay, good point those are completely contradictory perspectives, you're right!

So we'll look at Angelos now, you clearly believe the reports that say he knew nothing of the trade, anything that talks about his lack of involvement, also that the trade was not held up by Angelos. What was your source that's so much more reliable than ours?! Oh that's right the media that misrepresented Jones to have said that a deal was completed. How does that work?!

The point is you are not stating anything, you are just bashing everyone else for not agreeing with your Neverland mentality of Peter and the lost Orioles. You can try and pass all the crap off about how reports show that Angelos has been vidicated, but it's not true and that's why you wouldn't even refer to me in a post, you have to go talk to someone else. Let's finish this on MySpace so you can have Tom be the athority figure to protect you, since you seem to need one!

Uhh, actually by not mentioning your name I am not publicly taking a shot at you. Other posters who read that may have never known you were infact the person I was referring to, at which point you would have been able to hold onto whatever dignity is important to you. My not mentioning your (or anyones) name allowed it to die off into the sunset quietly…

As far as your minor-league comment and preaching the Mariners fault ~ well, I find that a bit of a stretch here. Besides, even if I was; how different would that be from your continued blatant above all else Anti-Angelos and “Angelos is definitely at fault” comments? But I guess continually publicly insisting one person to be guilty in the face of contradicting reports is the “major league” way of doing things though, while noticing said proclamations to be off base and not publicly dragging peoples name through the mud would be the “minor league” way of going about things. Interesting, they teach you that in Law-School as well?

As far as this:
“Also, darkstar, there are two ways to take what has been going on with the Bedard talks, either Jones was correct and they had a deal and Angelos squashed it or Angelos is a saint and Jones talke out of turn.”

Are you sure? See, I see those two things to be the least likely to be the case out of atleast like 30 possibilities. A) Nowhere has anything been said with any confidence that Angelos was ever involved in any real way shape or form. B) Jones did talk out of place, but that doesn’t necessarily have anything to do with Angelos in any way shape or form. So, not sure where you came up with your “two ways”, but they are two pretty screwed up ways that you cherry-picked to try and make things lead to the outcome you want to force into being the case… The entire argument was always “we have no idea with any certainty what is going on here” (me) vs people trying to force Angelos into being guilty off the past (you). I guess you just cant let go of that “Angelos guilty” part no matter what…

I know not everyone understands law and it took me a while to get it when I first started out, so I'll define prima facie and give an example.

prima facie is latin meaning "upon first appearance" or "to look upon the surface" as opposed to a deep investigation into the facts.

The affirmative statement is no different than you signing a gym membership or getting a new 2-year contract with a cell phone company. It states you have 15 days or in some cases 30 days, to cancel the contract. If you cancel within this window of opportunity than you have affirmed the opt-out clause of the document. By waiting until after that window has expired, you are now required to pay a cancellation or fulfill your commitment to the gym or phone company. You decide you've had enough and you go to fight the cancellation fee in court and the judge asked if you got into a contract and you say yes, but you complain about some of the guidelines you must follow. The judge said did you not sign an opt-out clause? You reply that you did sign one. He then tells you that you CHOSE not to use it, which means you were happy with the gym or cell phone at the time at that you probably don't have a legitimate gripe unless your circumstances have changed. So now your failure to cancel disaffirmed your opt-out clause, which ended with you now creating a second proof of evidence for the gym or cell phone company.

In other words this contract is no different than an opt-out clause and if Jones fails the physical, it would be like you failing to cancel within the window. By cancelling, you can claim that the gym or cell phone company, has no right to your money and Jones failing the physical means the Orioles can claim that the Mariners have no right to Bedard. So if the gym/cell phone are acceptable just like with Jones' physical, then you have a contract.

{Personally, I would rather have Balentien/Chen/Tillman/Sherrill, that is, if Sherrill must be in the deal. That's three top 10 prospects plus Sherrill. Considering he is just a reliever, he's probably got a good 9-10 years of that in him plus he has potential to close.)

Sessh, the Orioles are potentially receiving 4 pitchers and a star outfielder in the deal and you wouldn't be satisfied with that? Come on man. Get off your obsession with Balentien and Chen. It's not going to happen. Sure Balentien would be nice to have as well but where does he play? Chen isn't as good as you think he is.

Man you have issues…

“So you preach about my twisting of facts, when your scenario goes outside of published reports to a conversation between Bavasi and Jones, that no other person on this site was privy to?! Seriously?!”

…What are you talking about here? Are you saying that my giving a “possible” situation which leads to the outcome you deny is an option, is my attempting to insist that the “possible” situation I gave is somehow the definitive case? Was it the fact that I said “and I’m not saying that was the case” that leads you to this conclusion?

“Look either there was a deal or there wasn't a deal. If it was far along enough to have Jones take a physical, then it was far along enough for Peter Angelos to have it sitting on his desk with a cup of Yuban or Starbucks next to it as the aroma of columbian coffee filled the room at 7am Monday morning! Period end of story”

…The problem there? We have not only had Tim tell us in the very first Bedard to M’s post that Angelos wouldn’t be available on Monday to approve it; but we also have a recent report from the Sun that said Angelos was in or was being taken to the hospital for surgery on Monday. So, we should dismiss these two reports as blatantly false and instead assume that said paperwork MUST have been on Angelos desk and Angelos MUST have been there bright and early Monday morning in order to veto the trade by like 12PM… Humm, ok…

“I think you need to learn the difference between reliable facts and conjecture”

…This sir, is exactly the thing you yourself seem to be having a problem with here…

Between the exaggerated comparisons, the horrible major league numbers so far and the complete unwaivering willingness of Seattle to move Jones, I'm just not buying his hype. Take Cinci and LA for example. They fought tooth and nail to avoid giving up their top prospect and eventually walked away from the deal, but Seattle seemingly has no problems or gripes about trading Jones. I can't help but think his performance at the major league level so far has influenced that and that Seattle sees something that we don't. They are still selling him as #1 prospect material and I just don't think he's going to amount to that in the majors. Of course the Orioles like Jones more, he's wearing the #1 tag. Whoever was wearing that tag was going to be who the Orioles like more. Yes, Chen should become an all-star second baseman and once again, is ranked in the top 10 in that system. Going by his MiL stats, he is comperable to Brian Roberts anyways. Hits for average (.306), puts up a good OBP (.352) and steals a lot of bases.

Between the exaggerated comparisons, the horrible major league numbers so far and the complete unwaivering willingness of Seattle to move Jones, I'm just not buying his hype. Take Cinci and LA for example. They fought tooth and nail to avoid giving up their top prospect and eventually walked away from the deal, but Seattle seemingly has no problems or gripes about trading Jones. I can't help but think his performance at the major league level so far has influenced that and that Seattle sees something that we don't. They are still selling him as #1 prospect material and I just don't think he's going to amount to that in the majors. Of course the Orioles like Jones more, he's wearing the #1 tag. Whoever was wearing that tag was going to be who the Orioles like more. Yes, Chen should become an all-star second baseman and once again, is ranked in the top 10 in that system. Going by his MiL stats, he is comperable to Brian Roberts anyways. Hits for average (.306), puts up a good OBP (.352) and steals a lot of bases.

I agree that Jones' overhyped to some degree, but don't discount the effects of having to win now for Bavasi to keep his job. A 2008 Bedard is worth twice as much as even a rookie Torii Hunter or Mike Cameron. I actually want to keep Balentien more than Jones anyways, so it's fine with me if we ship him to Baltimore and keep Morrow, Clement, and Wladimir.

Oops, see you beat me to the post… Ok, I’ll reply to that first:

“That's not a gray area comment... To deflect our comments as unreliable or false is to affirm yours as being reliable and true...”

A) Never said you comments on the Jones situation was false, only asked if there was an alternative option. B) My comment was just an example of such an alternative option… So, your point?

And, you gave an article which states this:
“The Mariners' quest to land Orioles left-hander Erik Bedard is on hold — and possibly off — due to the involvement of O's owner Peter Angelos, according to major-league sources”
THEN this:
“Other sources, however, indicate that Angelos is playing a minimal role, and attribute the delay to a variety of unspecified circumstances” … “The reasons for Angelos' hesitation — if he is indeed hesitating — are unclear. But theories abound.”

…Its quite interesting you would point to the first sentence you claim is this amazing proof, but ignore the second which says the first could be incorrect. That was classic!

You must really suck as a lawyer… But anyway, next…

Tell me.. how much major league experience does Wladimir Balentien have? 3 games total. Does that automatically mean he is going to be a superstar? No but he could be good given substantial playing time or maybe not. Adam Jones only has 139 career at bats. At age 22, I highly doubt that means he is a bust.

You wanna know why Seattle doesn't have a problem with trading their top prospect? It isn't because he isn't solid, it's because their general manager is Bill Bavasi, the dumbest GM in baseball. If he could get the best player in the world, he'd give up the entire farm system and sign him to a 10 year 350 million contract if it were his choice.

We aren't getting Chen, get off it.

Well, I don't think he'll be a bust, just not as good as everyone thinks he is. His major league numbers early are a little concerning though, maybe just because those numbers don't live up to the hype of being a superstar or the next Griffey Jr as so many think he will be.

Maybe we don't get Chen, but he would still be a great replacement for Roberts. He may have to spend some time in AAA for part of 2008, but he looks good to me. I'll tell you one thing, I'd rather have Chen as the second position player as opposed to getting four pitchers. We need positional depth, not more pitchers. Tillman is nice for sure, I just don't really get why we are going after mostly pitching when we need positional player depth much more. Then again, guess we could just trade some of them off later for that.

Okay, some new info came across my ears and figured I would share at least a small portion related to this argument. A fellow O's fan who knows someone who works for the O's and said that Angelos has had nothing to do with anything and that all the rumors are false. MacPhail has apparently taken over PA's office in the warehouse and on top of that, Angelos hasn't been there in over a month. Any rumor involving Angelos meddling seems to be completely fabricated. MacPhail explained that he has complete control over everything, so for O's fans, that is very relieving.

As much as I want to share the rest, it's just too juicy. Hehe.

HAHAHA, are you serious? Wow, ok man…

Anyway, you sure do like dismiss anything that doesn’t go your way or fit nicely into your theories, don’t ya… But since you will obviously say anything you can think of in an attempt to keep your precious assumptions tight to your chest, then let me just go back to the start and ask you this. You really believe that you have been able to prove your claim:

“If anything the deal was done and Angelos it pissed at Jones for opening his mouth and that has either delayed or nixed it entirely.” … “My best guess would be that they are re-working the package to include Balentien or someone else instead of Jones to satisfy Angelos and they need an excuse to keep Oriole fans from throwing a fit!”
Posted by: BaseballGuru | January 29, 2008 at 10:28 PM
(((that was your second post ~ the first seemingly didn’t talk about the situation today and just things of the past)))

There, that’s your theory. Angelos is a big bad man who voided this trade because he is pissed at Jones. And your evidence? Well, now its become ‘Jones said he wasn’t sure only late in the interview’ and an article 3 days later that said Angelos may or may not be involved but ‘said he was in sentence 2 and said he wasn’t in sentence 3’…

Okay, here's what I'm hearing from the poster on the forum I go to that knows someone inside the organization.

Along with the Angelos stuff, the reason the M's deal hasn't gone through is because MacPhail is trying to get a clause that says if either player fails the physical, the deal is voided. The M's want to say once the trade is finalized, their hands are clean even if they fail the physical. The players rumored to be involved are accurate. Tillman, Jones, Sherrill and two prospects.

Three teams have called within the last three days and put offers on the table. In addition to Cleveland, the Reds have also called and made an offer. The third team and the players offered weren't revealed to him. MacPhail is entertaining more offers in order to drive the price up for Seattle in the hopes of getting the M's to include Clement or Balentein too.

B-rob will be traded to the Cubs in a blockbuster that will involve flipping Luke Scott and Sherrill along with Roberts to the Cubs for a package centered around Felix Pie, whom MacPhail deeply wants and will be the crown jewel in the second trade. Back to back blockbusters seem in order here.

MacPhail may also hold off for a little to see if other NL teams make a bid to try to keep up with the Mets. Signing Bedard to an extension will not happen, no chance and the source said both Bedard and Roberts are as good as gone.

This dude seems to know what he's talking about and says all this is straight from his buddy in the warehouse. We'll see how accurate it is soon I'm sure.

Jeesh, you guys go on forever repeating yourselves. None of you probably actually read each others' texts fully, or at least not with a truly open mind to consider the other sides' validity. You read just enough to run into a point you don't agree with and go off.

Personally I find validity in many of your positions on both sides of these arguments. But, it gets to a point where you're trying to argue for the sake of winning an argument, not getting it right. I'd rather get it right than be "right," so to speak.

That being said, there is word in Baltimore that a Roberts trade might not be so imminent after the Bedard deal gets done. Not that the Orioles don't intend to trade Roberts at some point, but his contract is similar to Bedard's in that he has 2 more years under control and the market is pretty thin for his position. Also the Cubs just might not be offering enough.

Between Roberts and Bedard, even though Bedard may be one of the best at his position, Roberts has a better track record to continue his style of play so there's less risk in holding onto him then there would have been to holding onto Bedard since pitchers can be inherently risky healthwise. So the thinking goes, if the return is not good enough for Roberts, perhaps the Os should hold onto him long enough to find more suitors. To me I think it's a pretty high chance that Roberts continues his normal level of play and contending teams in need of a leadoff hitter emerge as the season starts. I am reminded of the midseason Kenny Lofton trade in his prime.

I'm sorry, but some random guy on the cbs message board who claims to know someone who works for the orioles and has an amateur level status is not a credible enough source. Get back to me when ESPN reports that bit of rubish. Why on Earth would the Orioles have to flip George Sherill and Luke Scott with Brian Roberts unless the Cubs truly want to give us the farm (which they don't). Sorry but your source is full of it.

This deal to the Mariners is going to get done in the next two days and the players are already set in place that the birds are receiving. I KNOW SOMEONE WHO WORKS FOR THE ORIOLES WHO TOLD ME THAT.

Don't believe everything you hear..

Yes, sorry for the possible bad news for the Cubs. That being said, I don't think you can say that a Roberts deal is out of the question. Of course not. I just wanted to throw out the a pretty feasible thought that is floating around Baltimore that might not be so apparent in Chicago. In Chicago I might imagine that you guys are seeing the Os selling Tejada and now Bedard so it's natural to assume that Roberts is a gimme to leave as well.

That being said, I can actually see Roberts do very well in Chicago. I can go on about numbers but the part that makes Os fans really love Roberts is that he brings a lot of character and intangibles to his style of play. He makes it fun for fans to watch him play. Some here might say that stuff is over-rated which is valid, but, I know for a fact that Cubbies fans love those types of players. Some players you just throw out the traditional numbers argument because they bring so many dimensions to a team that can't be quantified. I just think about Mark Grace when he played alongside Dawson, Sosa, and Ryne. Grace never gave you guys awe-inspiring power but he was a lifetime Cub as consistent as rain, and, I'd bet he's one of those players that opposing fans might argue numbers against him but none of you would trade having him over other 1Bs because of the intangibles he brought. I'm not saying Roberts' numbers are bad, average, or something to be offset by character. I am just saying he is one of those guys who brings a lot of intangibles that I've seen Cubbies fans love seeing on their team.

Right now I think, say, for instance, many BoSox fans feel a similar way about Varitek. Believe it or not, but given a choice I think many BoSox fans would much prefer to see Manny leave Boston before Varitek does. Maybe the same as with Pedro too when h was a Red Sox. It makes no sense numbers-wise and position-wise. Of course numbers matter but, if you ask a BoSox fan what Varitek means to the Boston club, they'd tell you it goes beyond pure numbers.

yeah agree with that Basemonkey, and the two teams do probably have a rather hard time matching up when its considered that the Cubs already have 25-man problems as it is and the O's would most certainly be looking for guys who atleast rise to the top of their current prospect depth charts.

That being said, the Sess guy who gave it was one of those arguing that Angelos was almost certainly involved in the Bedard/M's hang-up and then gave the post "from a guy who has a sorce" which said to the contrary. Since that part of it does go against what he was previously thinking, then the second intrigues me a little. Well, lets just put it this way ~ I probably trust it as much as I trust any other rumor we have heard on the situation (that is, not much, but can still ponder it to see if its even a possibility to be true)

"Some players you just throw out the traditional numbers argument because they bring so many dimensions to a team that can't be quantified. I just think about Mark Grace when he played alongside Dawson, Sosa, and Ryne. Grace never gave you guys awe-inspiring power but he was a lifetime Cub as consistent as rain, and, I'd bet he's one of those players that opposing fans might argue numbers against him but none of you would trade having him over other 1Bs because of the intangibles he brought."

I'd rather not dwell on past Cub folklore just for argument sake. Intangibles beyond numbers? Do not look too deep into the psyche of it all. It is simple and called marketing.

Oh, duh, you were talking about the stuff about Angelos not being involved. Yeah, hey I want to believe he's not anywhere near the deals just like I want to believe we could get Felix Pie. Totally went over my head what you meant, but I re-read it and I got it.

Geez, I hate being sick. Brain doesn't work right anymore.

Darkstar, that deal could work but it may need a little tweaking because of your stated opinion that it's difficult to match the two teams up. The Cubs 25 man roster issues are an obstacle. But I'd be surprised if the Cubs dealt Marmol, he's a Lou favorite. And I don't think the Cubs will give 2 high level guys for Roberts. Wuertz, though, was a favorite coming up as a minor leaguer in the McPhail years. They frequently talked about him as a sleeper - even as a top 10 prospect. His stuff is good but it's his toughness and overall attitude that they really like. The Cubs often give him the ball in seemingly impossible situations. McPhail likes his old farm guys and Wuertz is one of them. Here's another McPhail pattern: In every deal, he likes a top level prospect on the rebound from an off (or injured) year (Albers in the Tejada deal and Butler, rumored in the Bedard deal). In that sense, Donnie Veal makes a lot of sense. He was a top 50 prospect on last year's BA list and has a higher ceiling than either Gallagher or Marshall. He had a tough year but his stuff didn't diminish so he's a candidate to rebound and would be a steal if he did. I'd rather they forget Scott - not that he stinks, I'm not sure he fits our roster -- and focus on Sherill and Roberts only. Pie is the jewel of the deal from the O's side. So maybe this: Pie, Wuertz, Veal and Patterson for Roberts and Sherill.

I think the Orioles need to get a 2nd baseman or shortstop not named Ronny Cedeno in this deal. If they trade Roberts, they have two gaping holes at short and 2nd, so they should be interested in Patterson or even Ryan Theriot (though i doubt he'd be part of a deal).

richie- Patterson is a better athlete. Cedeno does have value. You are correct. The O's would have a middle infield gap. You would think Patterson or Cedeno would be in a Roberts trade. I am just not sure which one they would take.

crunchy- Like said above, Patterson is a better athlete. I would disagree with you a bit on his attitude. There has been some chatter out of the minors that he can be a little headstrong like his big brother, but to the same degree. He has missed busses a couple times in the minors and even missed transportation when he was on the big club after being called up last year. That is the main reason why we only saw him briefly. They demoted him back down after sleeping late. I guess calling him a bit lazy may or may not be a fair tag. Regardless, it does not look good. Anyway, I am not painting Eric Patterson as a bad guy. They say he is basically a good guy and like you stated, more coachable than Corey. Andy is aware of these things. I'm not saying these issues would stop the O's from trading for Patterson, but you never know. I could see it either way. Personally, I hope Eric is in on that deal. They have DeRosa and Fonteno (I guess they would send him back down) at 2nd. They would need Cedeno backing up Theriot.

A name that hasn't been brought up is tony thomas. He is basically patterson but younger, which would appeal to the o's...oh, and without the baggage too. That being said, I thin mcphail would be an idiot not to want cedeno, who many believe could breakout this year after posting a .900 ops is AAA lately, and its a pretty large sample size too.

Dark, I would do your proposed deal from the cubs standpoint if it was wuertz and marshall rather than marmol and gallagher. I might do it either way though..

Actually, looking back at it, I wouldn't do that deal. Losing pie (great prospect at position of need) and others for roberts, where we have a pretty good player and 2 good prospects (patterson and thomas, fontenot is NOT good...) doesn't make sense to me. I would argue that pie is more valuable to the cubs even next year as roberts, because there is a good player at 2nd already, and fuld just isn't there yet.

By the way, remember what I said about tony thomas. He is a top 10 cubs prospect and is blocked by 3 guys right now, and it would be 4 with roberts...not to mention theriot and cedeno can both play 2nd as well...he is a perfect target for mcphail, and isn't all that valuable to the cubs, but would be to the o's.

Tony Thomas is probably the Cubs long-term replacement if the Cubs land Roberts. He’s the best hitter in the system. The Cubs were absolutely thrilled that they were able to get him in the draft. I don’t think they’re going to give him up. Besides, he’s not eligible to be dealt; he would have to be a player to be named later. And I think McPhail would like to at least put a young, but competitive team on the field this year. Thomas is 2-3 years away. By the time he’s ready, the Cubs will let Roberts and probably DeRosa leave as a FA’s and Thomas will leapfrog everyone else.

Adun,

Not actually trying to give a potential deal really, but instead just trying to touch the pieces which almost have to be included. The BP arm would really almost have to be included to make room. Similarly, someone would have to be removed from the 25-man from the UI spots (Fontenot or Cedeno ~ doubt Balt wants Fontenot though). We already had Pie in the new supposed rumor so he gets thrown in the mix. That just builds the front part of it for us… Baltimore has been saying they want pitching, so Gallagher makes a ton of sense, Marshall a little less but could be included (Balt was rumored to have said Pie + 2 SP for Roberts alone recently). I guess by the time we are adding all those pieces together, we do have something close to a final deal taking place ~ but Roberts + Scott + Sherrill is quite a bit of value so even more would probably need to be tossed on.

Ahh, who knows ~ but when you guys are making your possible predictions that’s where I would start; which it seems I was able to get across…

Also, do remember those park factors on Cedeno at AAA. Not saying it is definitely the case, but I imagine the team scouts take such things into consideration. It’s a tad strange to see a guy perform so high above what he generally does, when its done in a 2B/3B/HR inflating environment, it creates room for concern. You’ll notice that Cedeno didn’t increase his OBP at all; that was solely inflated due to the BA increase. The 2B/3B/HR rates are what really took off, which is actually why the BA increases as it did. If you were to take away the extra 2B/3B/HR power he showed those two years at AAA, you have something really similar to the AA line of .279/.321/.401. Now, when you consider that AA is a bit of a hitters park as well… well… you can probably see where the reasons for concern exist…

You bet! Under Dusty's watch, Patterson's little incident would have been swept under the rug. I agree, Lou has brought accountability to his bosses, coaches and players. Corey does sit off by himself. He seems like a nice person, but aloof.

From the Cubs standpoint, you want to include Eric, not Ronny. Eric has more ability. If we get Roberts, Patterson is not needed. Fontenot has trouble hitting anything off speed and does not have great range. I would not mind Cedeno and Theriot battle it out in spring traning for the starters job at SS. That may not be popular. I know many believe Theriot is the starter. I'm not sold on either, yet. Both guys have been messed with in their young careers. I believe Trammell would help both Cedeno and Theriot become better infielders. I know Cedeno is doing well in winter ball. I hope it translates to the majors. I just say let's see who wins the job. Either way, I think both guys will improve at SS. Two weeks ago I was all for a trade for Greene. The more I think about it, a Theriot and Cedeno combo would be good with me.

Pie better not be involved in the Roberts trade talks. Not if it is Roberts alone. I am one of those who feel we will overpay if that is the case. I really believe if we can get Pie to have a better idea of the strike zone and shorten that swing, he will do well enough in '08. Let him grow in CF. His defense is already there.

Why would the O's turnaround and trade Sherill? Did I miss a rumor or is this just food for thought?

True crunchy, good point. They say he is playing cf really well...but we will have to see in st. If they don't get byrd, he will probably get that shot. He is one of the most athletic guys in our system though, so I think he could be around average.

studio, there's been a few rumors that the O's are picking up Sherril to include in the Roberts deal. It makes sense because a lefty specialist would be a luxury on a rebuilding team...and the Cubs only have one lefty in their bullpen (Eyre). As for Pie, I think that was brought by another post -- the rumor is that McPhail covets Pie.

Huh Brucieeb?

Well, not sure where that come from but I would have to remind of a couple things:

1) We dont know if it will take 20M for sure. No one has really said anything from either camp, everything is speculation. For all we really know, CC just wants 5-6 years at 15-18M…
2) CC continually has said he doesnt want to go anywhere else. For what its worth, I have also talked to his uncle who stated this as well.
3) The Indians having a low current payroll is an aberration ~ it means they have money to spare; not that they cant spend money.
4) Westbrook and Hafner. It was insisted that the Indians wouldn’t be able to sign them either…
5) Even if the Indians were to lose CC, they probably wouldn’t trade him. Losing him in 2008 would hurt the club more than not getting a couple prospects who may or may not pan out. Unlike Min or Balt, Cleveland is possibly the favorites to win the division or in the least make the playoffs ~ losing CC would lower those chances greatly and not be worth it for the club.

…CC really isnt being traded, it wouldn’t make sense at all…