Cubs Outfield Situation: Crisp, Johnson, Byrd

Quite a bit of info is floating about this evening regarding the Cubs' quest to add an outfielder.  Let's put it all together.

• SI.com's Jon Heyman names Coco Crisp, Jay Payton, Marlon Byrd, and Brandon Inge as possible targets.  Inge makes the least sense given his salary and the Tigers' need for him while Curtis Granderson is out.
• ESPN's Jayson Stark confirms Ken Rosenthal's assertion that the Cubs are leading the pack for Reed Johnson.  Stark speculates that such an acquisition could prompt the Cubs to trade Matt Murton. 
• ESPN's Peter Gammons says Red Sox scout Allard Baird is currently observing the Cubs.  Other scouts in 'zona are speculating about a Sean Gallagher for Crisp scenario.  Gammons notes that the Red Sox wouldn't mind getting Murton back, either.  He thinks the Sox are wary of trading Crisp right now though, echoing a sentiment from Buster Olney. 
• Evan Grant of the Dallas Morning News writes that the Rangers want Murton plus one of Jose Ceda, Gallagher, or Donald Veal for Byrd.  Jim Hendry did recently re-engage the Rangers, according to Grant.

Comments

[Aduncaroo]

I just threw up in my mouth. The rangers are IDIOTS, and so is Daniels. Actually, I take that back, it would be Hendry that is the idiot if he doesn't IMMEDIATELY slam the phone down after hearing that bullsh*t.

Crisp is not worth Gallagher, period. He would be our backup CF. Maybe if he was going to be our starter, and we didn't have a bluechip type propsect in Pie. And yes, he is a bluechip type prospect...I don't care what half of you say. He led all of baseball in UZR last year that had more than 50 balls hit to them. So we know he is gold glove calibur in CF, and we know he has hit everywhere he has been except for 200 abs in the majors in his first trip. Well he is hitting over .300 this spring, and with his track record, and the fact that Crisp isn't going to give you much, if anything more, means that he is not worth Gallagher. Murton...sure, we can talk. Marshall, sure. Marquis...sure. Gallagher, no. I want a guy to anchor the back end of our rotation for the next 6 years for next to nothing...I'd certainly rather have that than a backup CF.

Oh...and I just threw up again thinking about that Rangers request. Excuse me...I have to clean it up.

[junbun]

seriously? murton AND one of ceda, gallagher or veal? wow. i can't tell if i'm seriously underrating byrd but somehow i think this is more the case of daniels seriously overrating.

[laxtonto]

I just dont know what to say at this point. If Texas pulls this deal off, Hendry is beyond desperate.

I could see Murton and a young bonus baby south american. But Murton and 1 of the Cubs top 3 pitching prospect is insane. And im form Dallas...

[Cub4Life]

I can see giving up Murton and Gallagher for Larry Bird, but not Marlon Byrd.

[Joe]

Murton is hitting over .360 in spring. Byrd is hitting .120. Yet the Rangers want us to make that trade and give up one of our top pitching prospects for a .120 hitter. NO WAY!!!

[scribbletone]

Daniels must've been drunk. Only way this makes sense.

[laxtonto]

That or he knows that Hendry is desperate, and Daniels is planning on signing Johnson and every other fringe CF to force teams to deal with him....

Im really having a hard time figuring this one out. It would a great coup for Texas, but i have a hard time even saying the deal with a straight face.

Oh on another thought, maybe Texas is planning on adding Laird in the deal becasue Lou or Hendry isnt sold on the Cubs youth, and wants to make a WS push from day 1.

[uww1]

Some names that were linked earlier this offseason. Crawford and Figgins. Could we attempt this again? I know the Angels wanted Ramirez with Figgins but lets off them something else. Dont they need pitching now? Could be play SS and then fill in at CF if needed? What do you think?

[rootman1010]

cubs to-do list:

-end the brian roberts situation
-make a sensible trade for felipe lopez. how about something like a mike fontenot? that way lopez can split time at short and second while being a winning team for the first time. remember, he does have plenty of talent and has put up big numbers before. however this also means the cubs must actually decide what they will do with ronny cedeno.
-sign reed johnson. high OBP, some speed/pop when healthy, good defense, good platoon option with pie, not a bad replacement in the corners if there's an injury. but if there is an injury, derosa can play lf or rf while lopez plays second.
-bat soriano lead off. the number two man has to move runners over. it's a situational spot in the lineup. when was the last time soriano bunted? or even had a hard hit to the right side? let him lead off and give us a couple 1st ab homeruns. i understand he's not going to run much to start the year, but i see him having a better OBP this year which would put less strain on running. theriot is a better fit in the two hole.
-trade matt murton. timing for him in chicago just didn't work out. i like matt and he's a good ball player, but it's time to go separate ways. he should net a pretty good return. just trade him for some prospects.
-hit some homeruns

[milehigh78]

adun-

LOL, but there's some interesting stuff going on between the lines here. It seems that the rest of the league has a low opinion of the Cubs' prospects. If Daniels thinks Byrd is worth both Murton and Gallagher and Epstein thinks Gallagher is a fair return for his backup CF, you gotta wonder what the general consensus is as it pertains to Cubs prospects. That said, the Rangers offer is downright funny. Crisp/Gallagher, however, doesn't seem that far off. Crisp has legit value and could start- and possibly perform above the MLB average- if Pie falters. I'd go so far as to say he's the best option of those under consideration.

I agree that Pie is a blue-chipper, though he strikes me as another Patterson. I don't know why. I'd give him a better shot elsewhere, but get the sense that the kid's going to get jerked around while the club tries to win the big one. There's nothing really backing that up; it's just a hunch. Nonetheless, when you consider how long we've been hearing about him and compare it to what he's done in the Show so far, it's a little disconcerting. Similar to Brandon Wood; another one I have an ugly hunch about. Big talents who have the feel of being washouts. The Cubs just don't strike me as a particularly patient club and if Pie starts slow, I could see the backup they eventually bring in, taking over full time. For Pie's sake- and the Cubs'- I hope I'm wrong.

BTW- everyone needs to stop getting so worked up about ST numbers. It's completely ridiculous; meaningless. Daniels' proposal for Byrd may be absurd, but using Byrd's ST BA as a reason is silly. Every year there are ST stars and every year, they falter once the 'real' season begins. Similarly, plenty of legit stars suck in the spring. Heck, last week everyone was getting worked up about Pie struggling, now I'm hearing he's hitting over .300! I'd give a lot more credence to Byrd's '07 than his numbers over the last month...but I'd still stay the hell away.

[bjsguess]

Agree with milehigh78 - the Crisp deal doesn't seem terrible. The Byrd deal is just absurd. Murton for Byrd is already too much. Throwing in anyone else ... come on now.

On the other hand, Cubs fans do you hear what you are saying? Lopez and Johnson are not the keys to your success. Castaways from mediocre teams usually don't provide a lot of lift for pennant chasing teams.

Here's how you win (IMO). Get the Roberts deal done now. Bat him leadoff. Let Alfonso slide down the order where he and his OPS belong. See how Pie does to start the year. If the performance isn't there go to the Angels and ask about Willits/Rivera or resume talks with the Red Sox. There will be CF's available if you need one. Keep your finger on the trigger when it comes to the bullpen. Odds of Wood getting hurt - 100%. Odds of Marmol struggling as a replacement closer - 50%. Make sure you have enough to put together a deal for some help if Plans A and B don't work out.

Right now, I wouldn't panic about anything other than getting a lead-off hitter that can play 2B or SS.

[HoratioAlgae]

That Ranger request for players in return for M Byrd is so off the wall that it makes some of the trades proposed on this forum seem reasonable.

[crunchy1]

Let's just sign Reed Johnson or even Jeff DaVanon. None of these clowns.. Crisp, Byrd, Payton.. are worth giving up a player for, much less a good one. I suspect, at best, they are all backup plans in case Hendry can't get Johnson.

[crunchy1]

milehigh, that's flat out ridiculous. Do you think Daniels actually thinks that's a "fair deal"? I'm sure privately he'd laugh at that statement. It's obvious teams are seeking premiums because the Cubs are contenders and they are thinking the Cubs will forsake the next few years to win now. It has nothing to do with how the prospects are valued and everything to do with trying to pillage the farm of a team who is perceived to be in a "win now" mode. Everyone is hoping to do to the Cubs what Beane did to our crosstown Sox and Kenny Williams, or what the Orioles did to Bavasi: get top farm guys because the GM feels pressure to win today. That's all it is. Hopefully Hendry isn't as rash - or desperate - as those other GMs. It's obvious you want to believe the Cubs prospects have low value because the Orioles failed to get top prospects for Roberts. The truth is the Orioles failed to trade Roberts because McFail overplayed his hand...as usual.

[Sqweeek]

"Yet the Rangers want us to make that trade and give up one of our top pitching prospects for a .120 hitter. NO WAY!!!"

As a Cubs fan I agree this would be a stupid deal for Hendry to make. But I don't blame the Texas GM one bit for asking for so much in return. They have no desire to trade Byrd and it is the Cubs who are desperate to find a reserve centerfielder. Why should they cave in and deal Byrd when they have no need to do that? If Hendry caves in then Texas makes out like a bandit. If Hendry doesn't cave in then Texas could care less. Seems pretty reasonable to me.

[chicagoill]

i just cant wait till the season starts.

[scribbletone]

I don't get why the Cubs even need to have these discussions.

SIGN REED JOHNSON!!

Offer him more money than anyone else. How ever much that is. You just can't give away high quality prospects for a backup. Luckily Hendry appears to be smart enough to realize that. He's made some pretty damn good moves lately (Todd Walker for Jose Ceda, resigning A-Ram and Big Z, getting Fukudome for less than others were offering, not trading away the farm for 2-3 more wins) and at this point I would be disappointed if he screwed that up by dealing the farm for Brian Roberts and Coco Crisp. This team is good enough to win the pennant now, and if we do, then at the end of the year everyone is gonna be like, "see, we didn't need those guys," but if don't win then people are going to immediately blame Hendry for not overpaying to get them. Maybe he's realized that all the other good teams have been stockpiling good minor league talent (Yanks, Red Sox, Indians, Braves, etc.) and that is a better, cheaper way to win than the old Yankee way (trading away every prospect in a never ending attempt to win immediately)

[Aduncaroo]

I just think Daniels is dumb because Murton could make that team better for next to nothing. I don't blame him for shooting for the moon because he doesn't need to trade Byrd...but my goodness. You could have a 26 year old capable of hitting .300\.370 with 20 HR...and thats something that Byrd will never sniff...not to mention Murton costs a fraction of what Byrd does. So like I said, I don't blame Daniels for asking for a lot...but I do blame him for not bringing in a good young player when he has the chance. He is an idiot.

Mile, its not bc other teams don't value the Cubs prospects...that just doesn't make sense. Its because like crunch said, they are trying to take advantage of Hendry being in "win now" mode.

[Dave]

THe Cubs are concerned that Pie and Soto will fade down the stretch, much like Theriot did last year. Not because they suck, but because the season is incredibly long and grueling, and young guys don't usually know how to pace themselves to be stronger in the playoffs. Not that agree or disagree, just that I see where they are coming from. Adding a Crisp, Byrd, etc, is just like signing Lieber and having pitch out of the Bullpen until Marquis runs out of juice at the end of June.

[davearm]

These other GMs may very well be trying to take advantage of Hendry being in "win now" mode.

But it's looking now like
after holding out for everything, they're going to be left with nothing, and the Cubs will simply "settle" for Reed Johnson.

Like you said, Texas is blowing a terrific chance to add a player that would help them much more than they guy they'd be giving up.

Kinda makes you appreciate the wheeling-and-dealing GMs of the NHL -- 25 trades at this season's deadline. Over there a guy just needs to make a reasonable offer and the answer is yes.

[Sabinus]

Just sighn Reed Johnson. He is a great fit for a backup CF. He costs no prospects. I would rather have him than Byrd, even if the cost was the same.

[scribbletone]

Thats because in the NHL there isn't as many fans ready to jump on their GM when they disagree with a trade. Just look at what people are saying about Daniels on this post, he's getting ripped apart for being rumored to ask for something.

And I wouldn't consider the Cubs to be settling for Reed Johnson. The guy straight up mashes lefties, and considering that Pie is a lefty, that makes perfect sense. In fact, Johnson arguably makes more sense than Marlon Byrd. To me, if they "settle" for Reed Johnson, thats a huge win the their organization. He fits their needs perfectly I don't get why this is so difficult.

Plus then we can retain the prospects for when Roberts becomes available at the deadline, when MacPhail will maybe realize that there aren't many teams willing to give up two top 100 prospects for him.

[davearm]

I put "settle" in quotes because I agree with you that Johnson is as good or better than every other option.

There's no settling involved.

[studio179]

Dave, there is a possiblitiy of what you said being true. I see some O's fan's posts who are unhappy over the non-Roberts trade. I see other fan's posts who have nothing better to do than comeon Cub threads and try to make long, intellegant posts and try to rip the organization any way they can do it. Everyone is looking at it from their side. Maybe teams are trying to take advantage of Hendry in a win now mode. It happens all of the time. Instead, it's the Cubs prospects are bad or low grade. Hendry won't do it, and so on it goes. Maybe there is some truth in what they say. Maybe there is truth in what you said as well. Seems a lot of non Cub fans really are bent out of shape this trade is not going down. I read Crunchy's post where he brought this up. Why are they upset? It could be many reasons.

I suspect some wanted to see the Cubs drain their farm for this deal. Believe me, those are the ones who have been posting every angle why the Cubs need to do this deal and continue to post. If it went down, they would immediately post how stupid the Cubs are and traded away the farm for one player. You can book that. What I can't get over is O's fans. They get to keep their 'face of the franchise' a little longer. I read those posts on how they would rather keep him than give him for Cubs grade B prospects. Well, keep him. Trade him off at the deadline in July. Trade him to someone else. Why so bitter O's fans? Make a better trade if you don't like what the Cubs have to offer. I see a few Cubs posts on them not happy Roberts is not coming, but a bunch of O's posts and non Cubs fans (who just bash every Cub move/non move) not happy. Hmmm...

[jrfukudome]

I think what everyone's neglecting about Reed Johnson is his facial hair. The rock star attitude that comes along with a Fu Manchu beard of that quality has to be worth at least 2 wins, even if he doesn't start.

[sunlegend54]

ok, if we're gonna base things on statistics and prejections, have you guys seen the PECOTA projection's for byrd and murton this year?
Murton: .295/.359/.462, .276 EQA Byrd: .275/.331/.430, .270 EQA
if that's the case, i'll take byrd's defense and leadership over murton's slightly better stats. you can't discount byrd's clubhouse leadership in the equation. and why shouldn't JD ask for the moon? we have no need/desire to trade marlon, we didn't call, hendry did. that means we get to ask for what we want and if we don't get it, who cares, we weren't really that concerned about it in the first place.

[studio179]

It was just reported Brian Roberts needed an injection due to lower back spasms.

[studio179]

Stealing all of those bases early in ST hurts.

[scribbletone]

Couldn't the White Sox look at Marcus Giles? If he can bounce back somewhat he could give them someone who could play second and leadoff once in a while, because they really don't have a leadoff hitter and the trio of Ramirez, Uribe and Richar doesn't exactly get me too excited about their state at second base. He wouldn't cost much and would simply give them another option.

And I agree about the Santana thing. If the offers for Santana were so underwhelming, why not take that Nathan money, offer Santana what he wanted, then trade Nathan for prospects? Now they're saddled with Nathan's contract and no trade clause, and settled for a package that could end up offering them very little long term.

And can someone say irony about the Roberts back spasms. Turns down a good offer for Roberts, then he gets hurt. I hope his value drops now and MacPhail settles for less than his asking price.

[scribbletone]

whoa what the hell that wasn't what i meant to post. Okay let me try that again:

sunlegend, you're quite wrong about the Marlon Byrd-Matt Murton thing. Murton's .821 OPS would be far more valuble than Byrd's .761 OPS. Its not like Murton is bad at fielding he just doesnt have the range to play center. And who cares about the leadership that Byrd brings? What leadership? If we want attitude then thats more reason to bring in Reed Johnson and his badass beard.

[studio179]

Maybe it is the hair, Jrf. Keep in mind the Cards let Spezio go and he has the rock star look. Plays in a band, too. Ofcourse, drinking and driving might have had something to do with that one. Let's hope if we get Reed, his back is ok in cold weather and for the season as a b-up OF.

[sunlegend54]

well scribbletone, apparently the rangers care about byrd's leadership. when the rangers traded david delluci for robinson tejeda they techincally got a better player back in return, but they lost delluci's leadership in the clubhouse and it had an effect on the team for the rest of the season. if ya'll like murton so much, have him grow a badass beard and i bet that would push you over the top and you'd win the series in 4.

[crunchy1]

Actually, I think Marlon Byrd’s outstanding leadership will lead the Cubs to a World Series romp. Derek Lee, Aramis Ramirez, Soriano, et. al are all looking for someone like a career backup they can all look up to. Heck, isn’t that worth one of our top 3 pitching prospects?

[scribbletone]

I agree, I mean look at what Marlon Byrd did last year for the Rangers, rallying them to all those huge wins down the stretch and leading them to the playoffs. Where is your proof that Marlon Byrd even is a good leader? Because he's older? I'm not quite following where that came from either

[sunlegend54]

i'm not saying his leadership is important to the cubs players, it's probably not, it's important to the rangers players. he's a tough player who gives everything he's got when he plays and isn't afraid to call guys out when they don't. the cubs may not need that guy in their clubhouse, but the rangers do, and unless JD can get a ridiculous return, (and i do realize it would be stupid for hendry to give up a top pitching prospect for byrd,) then the rangers don't want to remove byrd's leadership from their own clubhouse.

[Aduncaroo]

his leadership is worth next to nothing on a terrible team. He will "lead" you right on to another losing season. You need to be stockpiling good young players...and Dainiels if failing miserably. i don't blame him for asking for the world, but I do blame him for being an idiot and not taking the better, younger player. Good look with Byrd leading your players to their couches this October.

[crunchy1]

Kidding aside, it seems like sunlegend is telling us that the worth of Marlon Byrd to the Rangers is far more than it would be for the Cubs, which would be a RH backup to Pie. If that really is the case, then there isn’t a deal to be made. The Cubs would in essence be paying a premium to compensate for an intangible worth that only holds value to the Rangers. It would make sense for the Cubs to look elsewhere.

[scribbletone]

crunchy is exactly right, what you're implying is that the Cubs would be paying for something that only Texas cares about. Therefore Byrd's value is far lower to the rest of league, and Byrd will never be going anywhere.

"You need to be stockpiling good young players...and Dainiels if failing miserably"

And aduncaroo, I generally agree with most of what you say, but honestly this is just wrong. Look at the Gagne trade, look at the Teixeira trade, in essence Daniels is doing a great job of stockpiling young talent. They drafted pretty well last year, and even though I'm sure Daniels would like the McCarthy trade back, the Rangers still are loaded with good young players: Kinsler, Saltalamacchia, McCarthy, Main, Feliz, Andrus, Chris Davis, Teagarden, Ramirez, Hurley, Kiker, Beaven, Borbon, Engel Beltre, Harrison, Duran, Font, Diamond, Murphy, Arias, etc.

To say that the Rangers have failed to stockpile young talent is simply wrong, because this team could be really good in a couple years.

[sunlegend54]

well said scribbletone & crunchy1, you made the point i failed to get across over nearly two hours worth of post. good luck this season

[Milburn26]

After watching Byrd strikeout on breaking balls yesterday leads me to wonder if he could hit the ground if he fell over. I don't know what his 07 stats were, but after yesterday I think a Pitching prospect is needed -- from Texas.

I like the idea of Johnson as a backup for Pie and PH. Would like more experience as CF. I strongly believe the young guys will tire. I bet we need a solid backup at C before year is over. Can Blanco play enough? Byrd and Salty for Murton/?. Never mind. Keep Byrd. Murton/? for Salty.

[Aduncaroo]

scribble,

I meant in this situation specifically. He could have Murton or another decent young player, but is choosing to ask for unreasonable amounts of prospects for a guy that means very little or nothing for the future of the Rangers.

[Aduncaroo]

I don't mean he is failing to get ANY good young players. Certianly you have got to love that Hamilton trade recently as well. I think that was one of the best trades of the offseason.