Who Wants Matt Murton?

26 year-old Cubs outfielder Matt Murton is very much available now that they've signed Reed Johnson.  PECOTA gives Murton a .295/.359/.462 projection for '08; ZiPS says .289/.360/.465.  Here are the league averages from 2007:

AL left fielder: .275/.335/.426
NL left fielder: .278/.358/.478

AL right fielder: .288/.359/.465
NL right fielder: .275/.344/.442

These numbers are presented in the form of batting average/on-base percentage/slugging percentage.  You can see that Murton is comfortably in the league average offensive range for a corner outfielder.  He'll be arbitration-eligible for the first time after this season.  Let's look at some trade possibilities.  (As for what the Cubs would want in return - I'll guess a lefty reliever or just a prospect or two).

• Rays - DRays Bay suggests Murton could help in right field, not a bad idea.
• Padres - The Justin Huber acquisition makes this less likely.
• Rangers - They rejected a Murton for Marlon Byrd proposal, and now the Cubs don't need Byrd.
• Orioles - He was connected to them until they acquired Luke Scott and Adam Jones to fill out their outfield.
• Red Sox - The Cubs no longer have a need for Coco Crisp, even if the Sox had mild interest in re-acquiring The Big Murt.  Murton wouldn't start in Boston anyway.  Still, Buster Olney says there's still some chatter that the Red Sox will go after him.
• Athletics - Some folks think Billy Beane will pluck Murton simply because he's underrated.  The A's don't seem to have any kind of opening for him.
• Braves - Murton doesn't project as much of an upgrade over Matt Diaz.
• Mets - Could make sense for a team thinking about running Fernando Tatis out in left.  Longer-term, Murton could be an oft-used fourth outfielder, spelling Moises Alou and Ryan Church.
• Giants - Would be a nice low-pressure place to see what Murton can do, but they're already loaded with outfielders.
• What are your thoughts on a good fit for Murton?

Comments

[dbacksbuzz]

I actually do think Matt Murton to the Giants might make sense...with aging veterans Dave Roberts and Randy Winn in the corners, distinct possibility that one of them goes down to injury some time this season.

[bleedcubbie]

i think we should package him with maybe marshall, cedeno, or whoever for Akinori Iwamura. he strikes out a ton but maybe this could be the "brian roberts" kind of trade. he could lead off for the cubs and provide better pop than theriot. iwamura could move to 2nd and derosa to ss. idk i just really don't see how this team can win the ws with a middle of the infield as currently assemblied.

[MetFanBen]

I would LOVE Murton on the Mets, but I gotta wonder what the Mets could possibly offer for him that would interest the Cubs. Besides middle infield, what else do the Cubs need?

[Win1forRonny]

i guess i have 3 request for a murton trade:

1. doesn't go to a legit NL contender
2. goes to a place where he can start b/c he deserves his shot
3. cubs try to get a legit left handed reliever in return

Maybe they can package him with Murton or Marshall or something? I dunno... Murton's always been a fan favorite and my gf will be sad b/c she loves us red heads!

[Win1forRonny]

mets fan ben,

you guys got a legit lefty reliever for us over there who could be up for grabs?

[Win1forRonny]

sorry, my post above was supposed to be "maybe they can package him with CEDENO or marshall"... or both guys if there's a lesser middle infielder available out there... remember, we can always move theriot to 2b if we get a ss and make derosa the utility option.

[DM .]

I'm a Reds fan...

I'm pulling for a Freel-for-Murton swap.

Freel is redundant on the Reds (Keppinger and Hopper do his thing, and they're younger and cheaper).

The Reds also need another RH-hitter w/ some pop, to go along w/ Encarnacion.

Finally, either Dunn or Griffey (or both?) will likely not be here in 2009, so they'll need another corner OF at least by then (if not sooner... we know Griffey is fragile).

I'd basically platoon Griffey w/ Murton in RF, I think. Griffey needs rest... might as well be vs. LHP's.

From the Cubs perspective, they could use Freel as Roberts-light and he'd come MUCH cheaper. Freel is also really versatile -- basically can play anywhere but 1B, C, and P.

I'd be sorry to see Freel go, but I think this deal makes sense and would pay off for both teams.

[NancyEcho1469]

Stash him at AAA Iowa. He'll be needed at some point this year. At least wait till the trading deadline to see if his stock improves.

[coryjwilson]

I'm not sure how it works into the Cubs end, but I'd like to see Murton dealt to the Royals for Teahen somehow. Not likely to happen. The Royals had a need for his RH bat, but they hould have jumped on a Murton deal sooner. The Cubs probably want piching and the it's doubtful that the Royals would give that up.

Murton would look good in the Royals lineup.

[arsmitty30]

I've thought the Mets were a natural fit for sometime now.

What about the White Sox? Quentin is much better with the glove, but he still seems a bit "K" happy.

[chicubs464]

Honestly, I'm not a big fan of Murton. All I know is that I would rather not have him or Ronny Cedeno play on the big league team. In one game he made multiple errors in right and I know he's natural left, but c'mon man. I'd say if we want anything, why not a PTBNL and a draft pick?? I don't really see any team that has a necesity for a player that's only really good in left, and has varying hot and cold periods on offense.

[Dave]

I'd like to pick off Fuentes from the Rockies, but not a great fir for Murton. There's a lot of players I'd like to see in return, but unfortunately for the Big Murt, there is an abundance of league average corner outfielders and not a lot of matchups for the cubbies. Which is probably why he's still here.

[thehoagster07]

ChiCubs...You can't trade draft picks in baseball...

[jlb1980]

Hmm, who wants Matt Murton? What about Seattle? He could be a nice platoon partner for Brad Wilkerson. What about the Dodgers? They don't seem to be completely sold on Andre Either (I don't know why).

[Aduncaroo]

I think you ask for two good prospects or one really good one, that will give you more in your arsenal to use at the trade deadline toward a front line starter. Get a guy or two that you can package with what was going to go to Baltimore and see if a Burnett type is available. The Cubs roster is just fine as is.

[chitchens]

The Rays probably have enough marginal pitchers and position players to acquire Matt Murton. The Cubs might even be willing to throw in Ronny Cedeno. In Chicago, his path is completely blocked at shortstop, second, and third. Eric Patterson is even being forced to the outfield. The Rays don't really need Cedeno, but he could have a better opportunity to play in Tampa.

[bravesbeast]

I understand that we really have a similar player in Matt Diaz, and that we really do not have a spot for Murton because he is not considered a CF. But i still would really like to add him to our bench, and the braves do have royce ring and bryan pena who might entice the cubs.

I do think it would be a smart move for the Rays or Giants to go after Murton. Both teams have their strengths in pitching with some suspect players on offense, so why not get murton for one of those arms. While the giants do have a lot of outfielders, I am not sure if any of them offer as much upside potential as murton does. My only hope is that the mets do not get him, and I do not think the cubs will take schoenweis straight up for murton, or at least i would hope.

[Tim Dierkes]

I wouldn't call anyone completely blocked with Ryan Theriot ahead of them.

[touchmymonkey]

Murton and Marquis for El Duque and schoenwiess. Money is even - we can stash El Duque in the pen and start Lieber plus we need lh in pen. Marquis at least stays healthy and will give same #'s that Elduque would have if not more innings.

[airassault101]

I say keep him at AAA because he will get a shot this year with the big club and provides more currency for Jim at the trade deadline. I like Matt alot but this will be taking one for the team.

[Aduncaroo]

"The Cubs might even be willing to throw in Ronny Cedeno."

Yes, absolutely. And the Rays have a system where they could give up a B level prospect or two and not miss a beat.

[Aduncaroo]

"I wouldn't call anyone completely blocked with Ryan Theriot ahead of them."

I said to give Ronny a shot to take over the job in ST...and he just looked like he has every other time in the majors. Stupid. I was high on him, but the kid has got to get it together. If I see him get picked off one more freakin time, I might cry.

[SouthernFriedCub]

The Best part about Murton is even if he gets sent down to AAA he will still work hard and put up good numbers. So I think you have to keep him in case we have and injury, or someone else does before the break. That's when you make a package deal to get any extra piece you might need to make your run. No point in trading him now just to trade him.

[MetFanBen]

Win1forRonny,
We have Feliciano and Schoeneweis. I don't think Feliciano is going anywhere, he's been a beast and the Mets need him at least as bad as they could use Murton. Shoeneweis is coming off a down year and has a rather unattractive contract, but if we had a manager that knew how to use a LOOGY he'd look a lot better: his numbers against lefties last year were very nice, with a .204 BAA and 1.14 WHIP, 21 Ks in 26.1 innings. I could see the Mets packaging Schoeneweis with a guy like Gotay or Anderson Hernandez... not the answer in the middle infield for the Cubs, but they'll provide some depth there which can never hurt.

[chitchens]

Ronny Cedeno has officially earned a spot on the major league roster as a utility infielder. The whole Brian Robers situation could change his status in a hurry though.

[morandjp]

Twins.

[Aduncaroo]

As a Cubs fan, I don't want any MLB ready players. i want prospects, that we can flip at the deadline.

[walkoffblast]

Why would Tampa take Cedeno?

[Sqweeek]

I like the Murton for Teahen idea. Problem is Teahen then becomes a bench player on the Cubs and he should be a starter as well. Had the Cubs not signed Fuky that would have made sense, but not now.

[Aduncaroo]

"Why would Tampa take Cedeno?"

I dont' know, but they can have him if they want him. I want to clear as much room as possible for Eric Patterson.

[Jim Crane]

The Angels need pitching help and we have Jason Marquis that might look enticing to them. Package him and Murton up together for Willits or prospects.

[Sqweeek]

What about Marquis and Pie for Figgins? I'm not a huge Figgins fan, but I also don't believe Pie will be any different than Corey Patterson was. So if the Cubs are in a "win now" mode.....Figgins fills are our leadoff role.

[AJ]

Murton would definitely work in New York (NL) and Seattle for all the reasons mentioned. Both outfields feature injury-prone players, and others who could fit well in a R/L platoon.

I would especially like to see him in Seattle. As a 4th OF he should get 450 AB's between RF, LF and DH.

I would hope that San Diego's Huber acquisition wouldn't preclude them from going after Murton if the deal is right.

TB does make some sense, but between Gomes, Baldelli and Floyd, they shouldn't be too desperate.

I can't think of too many teams that have a better 4th OF ... it seems that he'd be an upgrade almost anywhere. The problem, it seems, is that the Cubs value him as an AAAA player within their own organization, but much, much higher than that on the trade market. They've done the same thing with Cedeno, in my opinion. It may prove difficult to find a trading partner with that in mind.

[chitchens]

The Rays don't really need Cedeno, but he would provided added depth. Wily Aybar is definitely not a lock at third base or any other position. Many of Tampa's other backup infielders are inexperienced or unproven.

Matt Murton and Jeremy Reed definitely seem to be the best candidates for the Rays right field opening. It should take no more than two of Tampa's marginal pitchers to get either of these guys.

[Aduncaroo]

"What about Marquis and Pie for Figgins? I'm not a huge Figgins fan, but I also don't believe Pie will be any different than Corey Patterson was. So if the Cubs are in a "win now" mode.....Figgins fills are our leadoff role."

I am WAY higher on Pie than you are. Figgins isn't worth that much to me either...I wouldn't do Figgins for Pie straight up.

[AdropOFvenom]

I'd love Murton, but I don't think a package of Schoeneweis (Although his numbers against Lefties really are great) and Gotay would be enough and I don't see what else we could offer that would interest the Cubs (No, you're not getting F-Mart! lol).

[Aduncaroo]

"I'd love Murton, but I don't think a package of Schoeneweis (Although his numbers against Lefties really are great) and Gotay would be enough and I don't see what else we could offer that would interest the Cubs (No, you're not getting F-Mart! lol)."

As a Cubs fan, I'd take Schoeneweis and pretty much any of your top 20 prospects. Or two top 20's instead...either way.

[ripiceman]

As someone alluded to earlier, the team that makes the most sense for Matt Murton would be the Seattle Mariners. All three of the Mariner starting OFers are left-handed (Suzuki, Wilkerson, Ibanez). Their 4th OF (Reed) is also a lefty and virtually have no viable right handed option.

Between playing DH with Vidro and occasionally Left and Right field platooning with Wilkerson and Ibanez, Murton would have an opportunity and get at bats. And since Reed has struggled and hasn't exactly panned out and with Adam Jones traded to the Orioles, Murton might become the 1st OF off the bench or even a viable outfield cog in the future.

Short-term: The Mets make a lot of sense. Especially the fact that he would start right away till Alou comes back and even still, there's opportunities.

Giants: Dont make much sense right now but if the Giants start trading off Winn and Roberts by the trade deadline, they could have an opening in the OF. Could Murton for Steve Kline work?? Kline's a veteran lefty making 1.75M...not too exhorbitant.

Speaking of the Giants...if they ever think about rebuilding....something bigger at the deadline could be:

Pie, Marquis, Gallagher, Veal, and Eric Patterson for Matt Cain and Randy Winn? Just throwing it out there.

[walkoffblast]

Someone hit the nail on the head when they said the cubs as an organization hamper these players values with the way they choose to use them but then turn around and try and trade them like they do actually know the player is valuable. Odd circumstances indeed.

[Aduncaroo]

"Speaking of the Giants...if they ever think about rebuilding....something bigger at the deadline could be:

Pie, Marquis, Gallagher, Veal, and Eric Patterson for Matt Cain and Randy Winn? Just throwing it out there."

Again, I'm higher on Pie than you. What about subbing Tyler Colvin for Pie in that deal? I don't really want Winn too badly either...

[stellar]

I think Murton the the Mets makes long-term sense as well. Alou is gone after this year, and F-Mart shouldn't be considered yet. I have no problem starting Murton in LF.

[Joelcards]

oh jesus another cubs fan trying to trade maquis. nobody wants marquis. the only people who have the idea that marquis has any trade value r cubs fans. why is that? murton to the rays one way or another makes sense. anybody know why fernando tatis was traded by the cardinals a while back? lets just say he probably spends his free time watching queer eye and reruns of the hbo series oz. also adunc i will be at the cards games 4/2, 4/3, 4/4, 4/5. let me know if u r going to any of those.

[Dave]

The twins was a good call. He'd be an upgrade over Craig Monroe at DH, provide insurance for Delmon Young in LF, and give Cuddyer a day off once in awhile to.

[Aduncaroo]

I'll let you know Joelcards. I have to try and get my father in law to loosen his grip...

I think Marquis' trade value is even it best, because his salary is huge. Someone can pick up Vargas for nothing. Marquis eats innings, nothing more. And if you were going to get him, the first half is when you do it, not the 2nd.

[stellar]

As a Met fan, I would consider taking Marquis off the Cubbies' hands just to lower the package we would send for Murton.

Plus, a little depth at the #5 spot can't hurt.

[crunchy1]

Tim, I think if you ask sabermetrians they’d prefer Cedeno. I think if you asked baseball players, especially teammates, they’d prefer to play with Theriot. Speaking for myself, as someone who used to play, I’d much prefer to play with the player with the higher baseball IQ, who’s head is always in the game, and who brings energy and leadership to the team. Now you can’t build a team or lineup of Theriot’s but, in very small doses, they’re good players to have on the team It’s frustrating to play with the Cedeno’s of the world where life is just a box of chocolates. Sure you get the occasional caramel truffle, but too often with Cedeno you get “crunchy frog” instead.

[Aduncaroo]

As a Cubs fan, I want to see Marquis pitch for us in the first half, then trade him and have Lieber take over that 5 spot in the 2nd half. Sounds like that would be excellent production, because Marquis ERA is always around 3 to 3.5 in the first half, and Lieber would be rested to be pitching very well down the stretch.

[crunchy1]

The one roster spot in flux for the Cubs is a left-handed reliever. If the Cubs can get a lefty specialist for Murton, they should pull the trigger. I noticed Cleveland put Aaron Fultz on waivers the other day but I don't know if Cleveland needs a 4th outfielder. From a personal standpoint, I'd like to see Murton go to a non-contending team where he'll get a chance to play everyday. Murton isn't an everyday player on a good team...but on a team that isn't expected to win, he's worth a shot. I'd like to see him prove people wrong.

[cfunk]

I know Buster was hearing chatter from Boston, but I don't understand the Sox getting him back. He wouldn't start and they already have enough of a clog at 4th OF...

[cfunk]

On that note, I think the Rays would be a great fit.

[crunchy1]

JoelCards, for someone who isn’t wanted, Marquis sure seems to draw more than his share of scouts every time he takes the mound. The last time he pitched, there were reportedly 48 scouts in attendance. The game always has room for a pitcher that will take the ball every fifth day, eat up innings (and save your bullpen) and keep your team in the game. I don’t know how much he’d fetch in return and maybe the Cubs would have to eat some of his salary, but to say no one would take him is simply wrong

[stellar]

Marquis and Murton for Schoeneweis, Gotay, and ?

[Aduncaroo]

Matt Murton for Scott Moviel straight up.

[hateku2]

Murton & Cedeno for some combination of Gobble/Musser/DeLarosa & Smith/German. Would consider trading Grudz or Gaithright if the Cubs have any interest. Royals get a right handed bat, move Teahen to 1st base. Murton starts in left. Cedeno at short.

[jrfukudome]

To the Rays for Sonnanstine? They could just slot Niemann in...

[skkrman7482]

Aduncaroo:

"I wouldn't call anyone completely blocked with Ryan Theriot ahead of them."

I said to give Ronny a shot to take over the job in ST...and he just looked like he has every other time in the majors. Stupid. I was high on him, but the kid has got to get it together. If I see him get picked off one more freakin time, I might cry.

his line this spring .311/.354/.511

His career line .247/.277/.349

I don't know how you can say "he just looked like he has every other time in the majors."

So he got picked off in ST. That doesn't equal stupid. Who picked him off is the bigger question. Some guys have ridiculous moves.

The best case scenario is Ronny wins SS and then Theriot is our back up SS/2B.

Don't trade this guy, he is our only infield depth - Fontenot is so limited.

[ripiceman]

The only reason I suggested trading Marquis in the Cain/Winn deal was to match up salaries. I think Winn makes like 6M per.

Also regarding, Marquis, everybody knows that he is useless by September but from April thru July, he was one of the Cubs better pitchers last year.

Yes, he comes at a steep price for an innings eater but when you see guys like Carlos Silva get 12M per for doing almost the same thing, Marquis seems economical.

I dont mind Marquis on the Cubs as long as we have a quick trigger regarding prolonged slumps.

Marquis would make sense for a lot of teams who need someone to fill in for a couple of months to get an injured starter back....Example...BoSox and Schilling or Angels with Lackey and Escobar. Yes there are cheaper alternatives from the farm system but you can't discredit Marquis' experience.

Marquis' trade value is going to be the highest in April and May but knowing his track record, the trade value will start going down as the cubs get closer to the deadline...

[Tim Dierkes]

"I think if you asked baseball players, especially teammates, they’d prefer to play with Theriot."

Maybe so, but why does it matter? Players haven't shown to be superior judges of talent.

[Dave]

Tim, I'd have to disagree with you there. In just about every profession the quality of competition is judged by those who play the game. That's why the hall of famers get to vote on the hall of fame. that's why the players get to vote people into the all star game. Who would know better about players abilities than other players or former players? How about Nolan Ryan being president of the Rangers? You could site examples of former players in all kinds of positions across the league.

These people don't get promoted and then all of a sudden figure out what talent is...they get promoted because they already know what talent is.

I hope you were just saying that to spur discussion.

[stellar]

Oh yes... Isiah has done WONDERS for the Knicks...

I know it's basketball, but the same concept applies.

[Dave]

Look into other professions. Unions, associations, etc. You could argue protectionism as the main reason those groups exist. It seems however, with the advent of advanced statistics that people without experience or knowledge on how to play the game feel they can be excellent evaluators of talent. Those people make great advisors, however, generally not decisionmakers.

Would you not say that the coaches are the best evaluators of talent on the field? Almost all coaches are former players. More often than not a player gets promoted from the recommendation of his coaches.

[Jeff McDonald]

Someone said 'only Cubs fans think Marquis has trade value'.....hell we're just hoping that SOMEONE will take him!!! Cedeno has the baseball IQ of a rock....he can get picked off any base any time....Matt is a natural hitter and not very good with D. So, he is best for an American League team.

[TTH]

Ahh, debating the merits of the gritty Theriot vs. the Ronny 'Deer in the Headlights' Cedeno.

One thing no one can debate, the Cubs really need a shortstop.

[crunchy1]

Tim, my answer to that is that talent doesn’t always win. What statisticians say and what looks good on paper leave out one important thing: Baseball teams are organizations of people. Any organization will have to have the right blend of people to succeed and work together. If I hire a secretary who can type 150 words a minute…but then forgets to put a stamp on the envelope then the talent goes to waste. If I hire a manager with a 180 IQ but can’t play nice with others…well, I have a problem despite his prodigious talents. Similarly, if Theriot and Cedeno come into apply for a job, I’m betting Cedeno is the one who comes in with coffee stains on his otherwise stellar resume. I like stats and I like many of the improvements that area ( It may surprise some who read my posts that I actually do own a copy of this year’s Baseball Prospectus). I definitely understand where you are coming from. This incredible wave of detailed information we never had access to before helps us understand contributions at a much deeper level… but it leaves me wanting sometimes for the human element of the game. Theriot sort of represents that to me, I guess. And I think every team needs players like that to succeed. At any rate it makes for an interesting discussion!

[futureprospect3]

sucks for murton that no teams are interested in his firecrotch self

[JFKatz23]

As a Murton fan I'd love for the Rays to pick him up but I'm afraid it doesn't make too much sense in doing so. The Rays are looking for a left handed bat to platoon with Gomes from what it sounds like and both Murton and Gomes hit lefties well. Unfortunately for both of them, Gomes and Murton have sort of been labeled that they can't play every day but I'd love to see either of them get 500-600 AB's in a season and see what happens. Gomes could easily put up 30 HR's and brings a great energy to the Rays and Murton could hit over .300 and be a productive bottom of the order bat. Murton needs to go somewhere where he can play every day and that wouldnt' be in Boston or even Tampa Bay.

[darkstar1661]

“i think we should package him with maybe marshall, cedeno, or whoever for Akinori Iwamura.”

…Is Akinori not the Rays starting 2B? Don’t think they would consider dealing him, esp with exactly zero options otherwise and no real current SS with Zobrist being hurt…

“What about the Dodgers? They don't seem to be completely sold on Andre Either (I don't know why).”

…Their not “sold” on Either solely because they are eager to sit $8+M Juan Pierre on the bench. It has really nothing to do with Either though, and Murton would never get ABs in LA behind that OF of Jones/Pierre/Kemp/Either…

“Ronny Cedeno has officially earned a spot on the major league roster as a utility infielder. The whole Brian Robers situation could change his status in a hurry though.”

…He “earned” that spot mainly by being out of options…

“The Royals had a need for his RH bat, but they hould have jumped on a Murton deal sooner”

…The Royals just waived/traded Justin Huber yesterday because they didn’t have room for him. If they didn’t have room for Huber, how would they have room for Murton?

To those thinking they can get something like 2 solid prospects or whatever for Murton, remember the fact that there are so few teams with a need/spot for an OFer that it seems like its probably impossible. The fact that Huber was traded for a PTNL and Johnson passed through waivers pretty much tells us about what to expect as far as return value if he was dealt. Not saying it wont top that a bit, but its pretty far to go from PTNL or Nothing to 2 solid prospects…

[TigerFan54]

Not sure what the Tigers could offer, but I would love to see him help out the ball club. If we have him for more than this year, he could play in OF if Sheffield retires and Ordoñez moves to DH, or could be a great 4th OF. Then we can finally trade Thames for BP help.

[milehigh78]

Tim,

Are you serious? That's a perfect example of just how flawed sabremetrics are. I'm not sure how you can even debate this (although you got some help with that Isaiah Thomas thing- LOL).

There's a trickle-down effect, for one. If players LIKE playing with Theriot more than playing with Cedeno, it can effect the dynamic of the team. We've all seen talented teams suck and mediocre teams (on talent alone) dominate. It's all because of chemistry or intangibles or...whatever you want to call it. WHATEVER you decide to call it, though, it can't be measured with a calculator or a slide-rule! Cedeno may project to do more with the bat in his hands. He may project to do more in the field. In the end, however, talent evaluators- people paid to play the game, evaluate the game, manage the game, etc.- think that whatever advantages a guy like Cedeno may bring to the table...they're not worth it. Frankly, I'll take advice from guys who have been around the game their whole lives than some dude crunching numbers in an office somewhere, talking to himself while trying to come up with the coolest acronym for his system.

OK, maybe that's not fair; I'm sure that there is a place for the number crunchers in this game, but to place greater value on their projections than on what your eyes and ears are telling you? Seems foolish. Numbers can tell you that you can catch a bullet in your teeth, but common sense will tell you it's probably not a good idea to try it!

BTW- No way you get that Matt Cain trade done WITH Felix Pie. Cain's an up and coming ace! SF needs to rebuild, but AROUND Cain and Lincecum. Marquis? Patterson?! Gallagher?!! Veal?!!! No. I'm just sayin'...no.

[CubFanForLife]

I really like the Murton-for-Ryan Freel idea that DM proposed earlier. Of course normally teams don't like to trade within the division, but this one could really be a win-win for both teams. Freel could be a poor-man's Brian Roberts for the Cubs, and Murt the Hurt would be an excellent 4th outfielder for the Reds. He could share time with Encarnacion, and step in when Griffey inevitably hits the DL for awhile. Plus, like DM said, Griffey and/or Dunn are likely to be gone after this year and Murton could then step in. Plus, Matt of course plated for Dusty Baker in Chicago and has his best season under him (2006, when he led the Cubs in batting average and OBP).

[darkstar1661]

MileHigh,

Actually, the Cedeno/Theriot thing has very little to nothing to do with sabermetrics and instead everything to do with scouting/development. Scouting/development will tell you that so&so skills generally progress at so&so rate, where the holes are in guys games are, what to expect ability wise, years of comparable players development curves to look at for examples, etc. Sabermetrics just puts it in a more easily understandable format. If you are going to get rid of Sabermetrics, might as well just stop counting BA/OBP/SLG as well… Why count SB? Who cares about strikeouts? Players can all just be talked about on the “he did great” or “he didn’t do so good” scale, and we can leave all judgments up to personal preference. The only thing that really matters afterall is Runs and W/L, right ~ lets just dump everything else since all it does it mean people have to use a calculator…

“OK, maybe that's not fair; I'm sure that there is a place for the number crunchers in this game”

…Yeah, its called the FO of every ML club down to those of HS. What do you think they do all day? Try to look at numbers, trends, projections, etc to decide the best way of building their clubs. The teams are coming up with their own methods of projecting based off numbers and sometimes trade-marketing them (!) ~ doesn’t that right there tell you how important they seem to be? A persons eyes are limited, and often influenced by outside factors, relying on nothing but the human eye is a recipe for a mega disasters and horrible mistakes…

Every couple days you seem to do a similar bashing of sabermetrics, but I think its probably about time you just accept they are in the world, accept that the people who matter actually put a ton of weight into them, accept that many fans think on similar lines to the FOs and accept that the game has evolved quite a bit from what it was in 1892… Bashing it daily, well it doesn’t accomplish much, and the argument is rather flawed since it goes against the actual teams actions…

[Meatball]

Like chicubs464, I favor a trade with the CRockies - Murton fits their team mindset.

[INOK]

Your right dark! Why waste money on thousands of scouts, plane tickets, hotel rooms, meals etc... Actually watching the player play is just a waste of time. Hell, If I owned a team I would shut down the scouting department and fire every scout! Then I would hire a computer geak that sits in his dark basement and pecks away at the keyboard. I'm with you 100% bro.

[studio179]

Tigerfan,

I could see Murton in Detroit as a 4th OF'er. Not sure what the offer would be though.

[CUBBIES2008]

Cubs should package him with others to try to get a Blanton or Harden. Like,

Matt Murton
Tyler Colvin
Eric Patterson

for Rich Harden

[studio179]

Actually, I can see Murton with 4-5 clubs. I'm not so sure what Hendry would want. I don't think anyone for the big club. Does Lou not like Marshall or 'Piggy' there?

[studio179]

Cubbie, why do you like Blanton? His stats are huge home/away. Beane will want more for Harden.

[Joelcards]

ill be honest crunchy, i dont like u. marquis is only tradable for another stupid contract or if the cubs eat 2/3 of his. sure he would be in demand if his contract wasnt so bad. also how come nobody is commenting on the fernando tatis comment i made. i have inside info that he is a tooty fruit. thats good stuff guys.

[crunchy1]

Dark, there’s no question that sabermetrics has had a huge impact on the game and the evaluation process. I’m not going to deny you that. However, would you agree that there is a human element to the game as well? Or let me put it this way, if player A and player B had identical numbers offensively and defensively but player A was a better leader, had the intangibles, had leadership skills, had a better baseball IQ, played with energy, and was a better teammate; would you agree that teams would rather have Player A on their team? Now, take it a step further, what if Player B had slightly better numbers? Who would you then take Player A or Player B?

[crunchy1]

JoelCards...Boo-hoo. This may surprise you but I come here to talk baseball...not be your friend.

[Bleacher_Buddha]

The Twins are the best fit. He is a lunch pail type guy that Gardy would love. He would be an upgrade off as the backup for Cuddy and Young. And be a better DH than Monroe and Kubel.

The M's make sense as well but I think the Twins may have more the Cubs would like. Plus they owe us a PTNL for Monore, hee hee, and with Murton we might be able to get a nice pitching prospect.

[studio179]

Joel, it is Fernando's personal life. I don't agree with that lifestyle and I don't care either. Each must deal with that which is their own.

Since you care, I'll give you some info. Watch out if one of the Cards hits a walk off grand slam and all the guys meet at home. That YOU TUBE is something else...

[Dave]

Marshall is the front runner for the lefty out of the pen, but there isn't anybody else. Apprarently 'Piggy' isn't seasoned enough yet, had a decent spring, but I'm not sure if he's been facing A team or B team competition...doesn't seem like they want to seriously consider him.

I also think we've seen the last of Eyre. Lou never really liked him, anyway.

[crunchy1]

Bleacher Buddha, they could use Murton in some way to keep Lahey, who isn't going to make the 25 man roster. If Lahey doesn't make the roster we have to give him back to Minnesota. Maybe the Cubs can get a player and make a deal to keep Lahey in AAA.

[Bleacher_Buddha]

Crunch, it was my understanding that Lahay was going to be the PTBNL so that we could send hm down. I was thinking they keep Lahay and Murton and pick apart the farm for our guy. The Twins farm is pretty deep in pitching. I imagine we can find someone. :-)

But.. I imagine that PTBNL will be Lahay, and Matty goes down again.

[crunchy1]

Lahey as the PTBNL for Monroe and then some extra goodies for Murton? Sounds good to me!

[Joelcards]

with tatis i really dont care what people do in their personal lives but it does raise the issue about gays in pro sports. i wouldnt want to get dressed next to him

[scribbletone]

I think that there should be a great deal of teams interested in Murton. I don't quite see why the Twins would want to be interested, their corners are already set with Young and Cuddyer. He'd just sit on the bench with them too.

I see the Mariners, Indians, Rays and Mets as all logical fits. They all are trotting out pretty subpar corner outfielders (Wilkerson, Michaels, Floyd, injured Alou), and I see Murton as an upgrade over all of them. I'm not even interested in who the Cubs get in return. At this point I'd be shocked if they got more than a midlevel prospect or a mediocre reliever. His value isn't too high.

[steven]

i see figgins as a superior alternative to roberts in that he offers that same skills with the ability to play multiple positions well. what if detroit got involved with inge for a three way deal with los angeles? could murton be useful to detroit while granderson is out and down the line as a 4th outfielder? detroit already has JJones in the outfield and could use real depth.

[hateku2]

The reason the royals traded Huber was because he didn't have a defensive position & somehow he pissed someone off in the organization. Huber was a converted catcher. I would think Murton's OF defense is better.

[darkstar1661]

“Your right dark! Why waste money on thousands of scouts, plane tickets, hotel rooms, meals etc... Actually watching the player play is just a waste of time. Hell, If I owned a team I would shut down the scouting department and fire every scout! Then I would hire a computer geak that sits in his dark basement and pecks away at the keyboard. I'm with you 100% bro.
Posted by: INOK”

…What an absolutely ignorant statement... Where did I say get rid of scouts? But you make it sound as if someone on a computer shouldn’t be employed ~ so why do the actual teams do it? Really, why do the actual clubs spend so much money on such a process? Yet you here present a post where you try to attack me because I said the flat-out undeniable truth, and try implying I feel/think things which were never touched on what so ever? That post really makes you look flat out pitiful man…

“Dark, there’s no question that sabermetrics has had a huge impact on the game and the evaluation process. I’m not going to deny you that. However, would you agree that there is a human element to the game as well?”

…where did I ever way otherwise? The two will always coexist; it is not, nor would it ever be, one or the other. But someone is extremely off when they are continually, relentlessly, trying to downplay their importance though, and that’s what my post said… Both sides of the coin have their pluses and minuses, any realistic people will say as much. But to repeatedly post as if sabermetrics hold so little weight despite so much evidence showing otherwise, while somehow also acting like the other side is a way to give a true indication; well…

Or lets think about it in reverse… What if someone continually posted and complained on numerous threads telling everyone that we shouldn’t bother listening to what scouts say? What if they said this because scouts praised such players as Corey Patterson and Alex Escobar as being the next big things, which obviously proves scouts don’t always know what they are talking about and make horrible mistakes and shouldn’t be listened to? Well, don’t you think someone would probably say something? A person repeatedly posting something which really boils down to “I don’t like the idea of it so everyone should just shut up about it already”; well… This just really isnt something that should have ever be a topic to begin with; there was never a real point to the numerous long posts of complaining about sabermetrics and the people who look at numbers (reference to other threads where the same was said) when its doing little more than saying “I don’t want to accept it”. And after I pointed out as much, it definitely didn’t need people tying to jump to rather illogical conclusions in a pitiful attempt to attack me just because the world feels differently over said posters prejudice…

[crunchy1]

Dark, I wasn't arguing with you. I was asking you a philosophical question. I was genuinely interested in your opinion. And in reality, your opinion on the matter is very similar to mine. A combination of the two...a balance of art (scouting) and science (sabermetrics). Now we may differ on our opinions on how much art and how much science but the general philosophy seems to be the same. The fine line, I suppose, is how to best balance the two. But that's a discussion for another day.

[scribbletone]

Personally I would argue that numbers have proven to be at least equally as good at evaluating players as the eyes of scouts. The key is finding the balance between the two

[scribbletone]

wow i just pretty much repeated what crunchy just said, without even seeing his post..

[crunchy1]

Great minds think alike? ;)

[crunchy1]

Okay...maybe not on my end! But, it's something I always say when two people think of something at the same time ;)

[darkstar1661]

"Dark, I wasn't arguing with you. I was asking you a philosophical question."

That part was less directed towards you; sorry if it came off as if it was.

“A combination of the two...a balance of art (scouting) and science (sabermetrics)”
&
"Personally I would argue that numbers have proven to be at least equally as good at evaluating players as the eyes of scouts. The key is finding the balance between the two"

That I agree with.

Its just so backwards to rely on purely one or the other because you never know how much of a sample size is needed to get a real good visual indication, and if the person doing the scouting has predetermined notions or prejudices; nor can a computer show you that his high BB rate was solely because he was learning a new pitch or that his leg-kick causes friction on the back which will lead to fatigue or something like that.

The fact that the two seem to produce in similar percentages in the end could only lead to the bettering of scouting as a whole. If Scouts and Systems both rave about Player-A then you feel comfortable about Player-A. If scouts rave about someone where systems don’t, then ideally the systems will pinpoint the areas to focus on which the scout might have missed. If the systems rave about someone which the scouts don’t, then you are probably going to be able to figure out the development flaws rather quickly and again, what you can focus on. If neither like… well, no point in talking about him… :)

Really, the balance kind of creates itself if you think about it; and the two scouting systems in conjunction are such an improvement to just one…

[Unlitedsoul]

I'm a big Matt Murton fan. So much so, that I got seriously ticked off when the cubs signed Soriano. I felt, and still to a degree, that Soriano is not the type of player we need. Sure, he used to be fast until the groin injury. He also has power. However, he's one of the worst wiffers in the game... the only time he's ever carried an OBP worth mentioning (despite generally high BA's) was when he was frequently pitched around of intentionally walked while with Washington, because they had no one behind that scared my 8 year-old son, nonetheless a major league pitcher... and he's a defensive liability for the most part (despite his great athleticism). Add to this, the guy practically demanded to leadoff, and he's a horrible leadoff man.

He literally took a job away from a guy whom I think is very strong player. No, Murton won't be appearing in any mid-season classics. However, I do think he can put up some fine supportive numbers (.300/.380/.450, 18-20 HR, handful of stolen bases). Depending on where he was placed in the lineup, he could either score or drive in 85-100 runs. He doesn't strike out very often, knows how to take a pitch, and knows how to walk (all of which are things that Soriano seems to fail in acknowledging existence of). I would have much rather seen the Cubs pick up Ryan Church from Washington to play RF, trade off Jones... or simply release him... and put Pie in CF with Murton in LF. Hell, if I had my druthers, I would have rather seen Hendry spend the cash he did on Soriano on Carlos Beltran a couple of years earlier.

Now, with Pie at the point of "making it or breaking it", Soriano (or as a friend of mine on another message board likes to call him: Sosiano) in LF, and the addition Fukudome (another guy I'm not so keen on as of yet)... the only role for Murton is a 4th or 5th OF spot, which is unfair to him. Then they went out and got Reed Johnson. Now, I like the Reed Johnson signing. He does what Murton can't, play solid defense in all three OF spots.

While I'd hate to see Murton go, I also don't want to see a talented youngster go to waste. I certainly don't want to see him end up with the Mets, where he could actually help them in a fight against the Cubs in a potential post-season match up. However, it also depends on what we get back for him. I'd prefer a couple of mid to high level prospects, but it'll probably be some hapless, low-lying, lefty reliever that will fill Eyre's shoes for 6 weeks then get released. Personally, I can see him doing well with the Rangers or Giants. The Rays, he'd have to play RF for them... and he's not an everyday RF kind of guy. Maybe the Royals.

[Bleacher_Buddha]

Scribbletone,

Your right the corners are set in Minnesota but, they have garbage for DH. Murton can DH and give the others days off. The Twins arent going to make much noise unless they can score some runs, espcially now that Santana is gone. Murton is a huge addition to that offense.

[Unlitedsoul]

I was impressed when watching Lahey this spring when I was in Mesa. However, he seemed to get hit kinda hard in his last couple of ST outings. Keep in mind though, every reliever is going to get roughed up once in a while.

In terms of keeping Lahey, I don't know why Hendry doesn't just call him the PTBNL from the Craig Monroe trade. I may be wrong, but to my recollection, the Cubs haven't gotten compensation for that trade as of yet. It would save the Twins from having to pay the Cubs $25K to get Lahey back... or giving up another prospect or paying an even higher cost in "cash considerations" for Monroe.

[92-93]

Why Johnson over Murton? Can Murton not play CF?

The whole Johnson clearing waivers and going straight to the Cubs seems odd to me. Read a comment elsewhere perhaps there was some collusion there and the Cubs will allow JP to keep Randy Wells

[studio179]

They said it took Johnson 10 min. (literally) to get a deal done with Hendry once he cleared. I guess he wanted to be reunited with Wilken. ;)

That signing is so huge for the Cubs. Not just what he can do, but what the Cubs did not have to do.

[scribbletone]

"Your right the corners are set in Minnesota but, they have garbage for DH. Murton can DH and give the others days off."

I wouldn't say they have garbage at DH, Jason Kubel could end up being equally as good as Murton. But I do agree that Murton could be valuable as a DH at times while offering the Twins the ability to rest Cuddyer and Young if and when necessary. The problem though is that he really isn't a need for them, and it seems extremely unlikely that they would give up anything of real value.

"Why Johnson over Murton? Can Murton not play CF?"

EXACTAMUNDO!

[INOK]

Joelcards said: i wouldnt want to get dressed next to him.

Joel, I'll bet you could be on a deserted island necked with Andy Dick and have as much of a chance of getting hit on, as the cardinals have of winning 75 games this year.

[Joelcards]

oh inok. between u and crunchy i could make an idiot sandwich. and i am starting to think the cards r going to win this year. i predict 90 wins with a possibility of the playoffs. they have looked very good in spring training. pujols will be king this year. carp comes back midseason and its lights out cubbies.

[scribbletone]

"between u and crunchy i could make an idiot sandwich. and i am starting to think the cards r going to win this year. i predict 90 wins with a possibility of the playoffs. they have looked very good in spring training. pujols will be king this year. carp comes back midseason and its lights out cubbies."

You're going to seriously, seriously regret writing this when someone brings it up in September. The way a team looks in Spring Training is fairly meaningless. Albert Pujols' elbow is about to explode, and while he still may put up good numbers, the rest of your lineup is far from intimidating. You have no idea what you're gonna get from your outfield, with Duncan being the only guy I would expect to be at least average, and you will be receiving ZERO offense from your middle infielders. Your rotation is far from impressive, and if your placing your hopes for the season on the returns of essentially your whole hobbling rotation, Carp, Mulder and Clement, then you'll be left disappointed. Even though I think Wainwright will be quite good, Looper is a 4/5, and the same can be said for Piniero, Lohse and hell, Wellemeyer would be flattered to be considered a servicable starter. To predict them to win 90 games, something even good teams can't do, is a very poorly thought out prediction. Especially after calling someone else dumb..

[Joelcards]

look scribble first pujols' elbow isnt pefect but he will be fine. the media just ran with that one. the outfield ismore than fine with ankiel, duncan, ludwick, schumaker, and barton. schumaker will have a very good year u watch. the rotation definitely has problems. wainwright is awesome. i would call lohse a 3 or 4, same with piniero. looper i dont know. i sort of think he will suck this year. the rest of the rotation has competition which is good. we actually have a lot of depth, just not a lot of good pitchers. the one thing the cards have that the cubs and brewers dont have is karma. u wouldnt understand it unless u have been to the ballpark. the cards always find ways to win when they shouldnt. the cubs are the exact opposite and the brewers are still too young. the cubs absolutely have the best team on paper but paper doesnt win championships. if they can be at least .500 before carp gets back(screw mulder and clement) they can win the division. and once they get into the playoffs u never know what will happen. the 06 cards proved that.

[Joelcards]

the cards also have the best bullpen in the central and the best manager in all of baseball

[Bleacher_Buddha]

Scribbletone,

The question posed was "Let's look at some trade possibilities. (As for what the Cubs would want in return - I'll guess a lefty reliever or just a prospect or two)."

Tim asked what team may want him and I suggested the Twins.

None of the teams listed truly have a huge need for Murton and none will give up much. The Twins may not give up much but they may give up a lefty reliever or a prospect, which is in line with the quesiton posed. In my original post I stated that the Twins owe us a PTBNL and I suggested we package Murton with the PTBNL and we should be able to get a better item from the twins, than we might from another team.

It sounds like we may get Lahey already as the PTBNL, if we cannot keep him on the 25 man. Which is a decent PTBNL, so add Murton to that... who knows, we may get a really nice prospect. Which was my whole point.

[studio179]

I like your proposal, Bleacher. I thought about a few teams that could use him and can't come up with anything better than your idea right now. Let's run with it.

[sweetswingingbw]

joelcards, you might not be completely crazy. The Cards have a fairly soft schedule early in the year. So if they can hang in there for a few months and their pitchers come back healthy, who knows?

[scribbletone]

Does anyone realize what a huge wild card it is to bank your season on previously injured pitchers..? Look at the Cubs with Prior and Wood, that ruined the organization for three years. Look at Harden. Joelcards might not be crazy to think that, but as a Cubs fan, I'm just telling you that to depend on injured guys like Carp, Mulder and Clement is something that you don't want to make a habit of doing. They almost always disappoint.

[CUBBIES2008]

I know this out of no where but did you realize every time Cubs went for a big name player they didn't get them. Well besides Fukudome they didn't really get anyone. (Which is not a bad thing)
But here for example.

Carl Crawford- Had talks for a little bit but then the Rays made him unavailable.

Kaz Matsui- Was a 3 team race between Astros, Cubs and Rockies, but then he priced himself out of Rockies range and then signed with the Astros.(Good thing he didn't sign with the Cubs because he's geting anal tissue surgery.)

Brian Roberts- *Sigh* I really don't want to talk about this anymore. I guess I will though. Had talks over 3 months about him and offered alot of players for him but the O's didn't like the Cubs deal.

Coco Crisp- Didn't really have talks for him maybe for little bit but nothing to get your hopes up.

Marlon Byrd- Had trade talks with Texas for him but Cubs wanted to trade Murton straight up for him but Rangers wanted more.

[Aduncaroo]

"the cards also have the best bullpen in the central and the best manager in all of baseball"

I will put down money on that not being true. Keith Law even said the Cubs could be the best in all of baseball in the pen...you won't get any more career years from people like Franklin. I think your bullpen will be better than most of the central, but not nearly what it was last year.

[CMichaels6]

Southern Fried Cub
did you hear that LOOGY thing on a radio show in chicago?
i herd that too

Scribble tone alfonso soriano not a big name?