Olney's Latest: Sabathia, Sexson

And the Cubs are running the race without a jockey. Did anyone take a gander at Rich Hill's latest performance? He was supposed to be the centerpiece of a deal for C.C.

Wait, don't look now but the Cubs have just pulled up lame in the CC race. It looks like that horse is about to be euthanized.

why do cubs fans keep on mentioning feliz piea in their deal

the guy cannot hit for nothing, indians need offense, and they have a center feilder.

why dont they mention marmol? he is the only eye poping talent they have.

dont even mention rich hill

No Adam, 4 years of Marmol is not worth three months of Sabathia. If 2-3 of Gallagher, Ceda, Vitters, Patterson, Hill is not enough, AJ Burnett will be fine, thanks.

“The only person I could see Shapiro wanting from the cubs is Marmol. We desperately need bullpen help this year and some position players...but I don't think Shapiro wants developmental players...he wants players who can be successful next year.”

…Perfectly said. The Cubs have mainly projectables or reclamation projects for positions/levels we don’t need ~ we are trying to win now.

Besides, this thread implies that the Cubs are in second place as far as getting a deal done, but that statement goes directly against what Olney said on baseball-tonight yesterday. I’m thinking this is more of a list of teams rankings based off how hard they are pushing ~ to which obviously the Cubs would be at the top. The other teams interest will come later, when more and more arms are not available (Bedard dropped off yesterday) or more teams fear their competitor will possibly be landing him. To instantly think the teams pushing right now will be one of the teams to get it done ignores too many doors which are yet to be opened…

Felix Pie doesn't have to be included. I said Gallagher, Vitters, Ceda, and Patterson. If you wanted Pie more than any of the above players, you could have him. They all fill needs. A rotation of Carmona, Lee, Laffey, Gallagher, and Sowers untill Westbrook comes back is pretty solid. Vitters could fill the void at 3b for them, Ceda really helps out the bullpen, and Patterson could play at second with Barfield. (Asuming the trade Blake, move Peralta to 3b, and Cabrera to ss) They Indians could get a better package from the Brewers, or Dodgers, but I think the Cubs will push harder and get the deal done.

Sowers? Why do Indians fans think any team will want that guy...and for Atkins, Loney, Kemp, etc.? C'mon now.

The problem is that Sowers stinks. Laffey doesn't. There's a big difference. They are not interchangeable. No team will give up a good player for a pitcher that's no better than someone they can find in AAA or the waiver wire.

“Isn't funny how the Cubs have the best record in baseball with only ONE "eye-popping" talent? Some of these posts never cease to amaze me!”
…uhh, do you think he might have meant to offer in a trade? Last I checked minor-league players stats don’t count towards a big-clubs W/L record…

“Sowers? Why do Indians fans think any team will want that guy...and for Atkins, Loney, Kemp, etc.? C'mon now.”
…lets see:

Starting with his first year out of college, covering all locations where he had more than 5 starts:
2005 A+ ~ 2.78 ERA, 1.07 WHIP (13G)
2005 AA ~ 2.08 ERA, 1.01 WHIP (13G)
*2005 total ~ 2.37 ERA, 1.07 WHIP (27G)
2006 AAA ~ 1.39 ERA, 1.10 WHIP (15G)
2006 ML ~ 3.57 ERA, 1.189 WHIP (14G)
2007 AAA ~ 4.10 ERA, 1.41 WHIP (15G)
2007 ML ~ 6.42 ERA, 1.559 WHIP (13G)
2008 AAA ~ 2.08 ERA, 1.20 WHIP (10G)

…So, we have one year of bad production which started (because of injuries) with him being thrown into a rotation behind Westbrook and infront of Carmona (two pitchers with similar styles/arsenals) and success everywhere else from a prospect that was ranked as high as the 53rd best. You are probably right, no one would want him…

But anyway, its not like anyone said Sowers will be traded for Webb or Peavy ~ that would be like expecting Gallagher to headline a trade for Sabathia. The only thing stated here was that Sowers could be included in a package to get Atkins, ie a lower-level star from a team who said they wanted such a pitcher…

How lame. College stats? Really? Sowers stinks, darkstar, and you know it. 38 hits in 24 innings doesn't just happen. 87 mph fastballs don't scare anyone. Give me a break.

Playwright, as happy as you are that the Cubs didn't iclude Gallagher in a Roberts deal, I think the Cubs fans are much happier. The kid is better than advertised. Much to the contrary of the pseudo scouting reports I've seen on this site (by fans), he's a power pitcher and will be in the middle of this rotation for years to come. That's more valuable to us right now than an overrated player like Roberts. The Cubs don't have a whole lot of problems scoring runs, they just don't need Roberts. The Cubs dodged a bullet by not making that deal.

I agree with the notion that trading Gallagher to get CC isn't a great move on the Cubs part. I understand that Sabathia won the Cy Young last year but this year he's been pitching like the pre 2006 Sabathia...and that guy is ,more a #2 (maybe even #3) than a #1 starter. The Cubs may gain as much picking up a guy like Wolf without having to trade a guy who's certain to be in their rotation for the next 6 years. It won't break my heart if the Cubs take a pass on CC.

The Indians on one hand want MLB ready players and on the other they say they'll settle for draft picks who won't be ready for 3-5 years -- if at all. It's all a bunch of b.s. I wouldn't be surprised to see them eventually trade Sabathia for a similar package (talent-wise) that the Twins got for Santana.

Plus his fastball hit the 90-91 mph range quite a bit in his last start. All he needs is keep hitters off balanced and work both sides of the plate and he can do some good for any team.

I think to many teams are interested in C.C. for the win now, to not give up some talent...plus Shapiro is a genius at what he does.

He will develop into a reasonably successful mlb pitcher, even if his fastball isn't fast enough for you.

Baseballnuts, where'd you hear those names? Maestri has a good arm with a nasty slider and Tony Thomas is a great hitter...but they aren't the hyped prospects their fans are looking for. If what you say is true, then the Indians have been blowing a lot of smoke about the return they're looking for. Still, if I'm making a trade with the Cubs, I'm going for their low level guys. The Cubs have a poor development history and you'll want to get players before the Cubs have had a chance to ruin them. Thomas and Maestri, despite their level, aren't really that far away. I think they are nearly certain to become major leaguers. Something like Hill, Thomas, Maestri and another name or two from your list may work for both sides. Shapiro is shrewd and it wouldn't surprise me if he's honed in on a couple of hidden gems like Thomas and Maestri. And it wouldn't surprise me if the Indians superior development system makes that deal look pretty good in 2 years.

As for the brewers, i wouldnt really like to see them push that hard for CC. I hope theyre bluffing. There is no way in hell CC will resign with milwaukee this offseason. Melvin would have to give up Laporta, and or Gamel, plus more prospects. (Sorry Cleveland, the brewers wont give up parra for half a season from CC, so these are the closest to MLB ready players we have (which hopefully makes this trade undoable)) The only good thing that would come from getting CC would be draft compnsation, which isnt worth it if we had to give up Laporta. I would rather see the brewers go after someone like Erik Bedard, who wouldnt cost nearly as much from the farm system, and not to mention the brewers could possibly sign him to a medium to longterm contract.

As for the cubs, you should do anything under your power to trade for CC. 1, he could bring a world serise to chicago, 2, you could resign him and solidify your rotation for half a decade, 3, if he walks after the season, you get great compensation to solidify your farm system (which sucks)

I'm not sure I agree with Bedard costing less than CC. He may be worth more because he won't immediately require big dollars, but that's exactly why he'd command at least the same tier of prospects.

"How lame. College stats? Really? Sowers stinks, darkstar, and you know it. 38 hits in 24 innings doesn't just happen. 87 mph fastballs don't scare anyone. Give me a break."

Rich Hill is just unbearably awful, he is a joke and a horrendous pitcher and you know it. 46 BB in 45 innings just dont happen. And yet you want to use him as a centerpiece for Sabathia, while bashing somebody else for using sowers as a piece in a package for Atkins. What a hypocrite.

It will be fun to follow how long Indian fans will continue to snicker about how the Cubs have no chance etc etc., since the players they have to offer are nowhere close to Sabathia caliber.

Well...
* The Santana trade suggests otherwise.
* Common sense should indicate that getting Sabathia for only 2 months suggests otherwise.
* The two scouts quoted in the last Sabathia thread suggest otherwise.
* And now Buster Olney comes along and suggests otherwise.

But I'm sure the biased Indian homers have a much better feel for this stuff.

crunchy1 ... I will admit when I make mistakes. I certainly did NOT see the Cubs leading baseball in winning % or in total offense. They have done remarkably well especially considering that Soriano has been out of the lineup as much as he has.

That said, the Cubs will regress. There is no doubt of that. The question will be whether the Cubs regress slightly or significantly. In any case I do expect them to win the Central with the Brewers right behind them.

To put things into perspective. On this day last year the standings looked like:

NL West - Dodgers (+ 0.5 games)
NL Central - Brewers ( + 8.5 games)
NL East - Mets (+2.0 games)

Not one of those teams made the playoffs. They all experienced collapses. Some were reasonably forseable (Dodgers, Brewers) while others proved to be quite shocking (Mets).

But aside from me making a preseason pick of the Brewers over the Cubs this post is really about Jim Edmonds. Crunchy1 ... do you really want to go on the record as an Edmonds believer? The guy has posted almost a 1000 OPS since coming to the Cubs. You want to project that for the rest of the year? My point was (and is) simple ... Jim Edmonds cannot be counted upon to produce at his current levels. If you think he can continue at this pace let's check back in a month.

My money is on serious regression or injury.

I don't think Edmonds will keep up this pace, not at this age and not in a demanding position like CF. But I do think he has a chance to hit .270 with 15-18 Hrs which will help the Cubs balance their lineup a bit -- if they keep him rested. His CF range is down significantly but he's still got a flair for the big play on both offense and defense. Considering the rest of the Cubs lineup, that's as much contribution as we need...or can expect. At the same time, it wouldn't surprise me if he got hurt or regressed. But I think playing for the Cubs has rejuvenated him a little and while he is no longer a star, I think he'll continue to play a role and make solid contributions.

Adam, I don't think there's any question that the Brewers have a better farm system and more highly touted prospects than the Cubs do. The only question is would they trade LaPorta? I can see them trading Gamel as he doesn't fit in with that team position wise. But LaPorta is the type of guy they'll make room for. As for the Cubs, I think Shapiro is smart enough to look past the guys the Cubs are trying to tout (Pie, Murton, Ceda, Veal etc.) and look deeper into their system at the guys the Cubs are trying to stay quietly high on...guys like Maestri, Thomas, Rhee, and Russell. Rhee and Thomas, in particular, would be tremendous pick-ups. In the end, it's all going to depend on how much a team wants to give up for a 3 1/2 month rental. The Cubs, in the end, given their situation in terms of years without a WS and the ownership uncertainty, may be the team that's willing to fork over the most talented young players. None of us have a crystal ball, but I feel pretty confident that the Cubs will walk away with a solid starter before the trade deadline...whether it's Sabathia, I don't know. But I do think the Cubs will make a run at him.

I think that the cubs will have to make up there minds if they want an arm or a hitter. Look at what has happened the last few days with fukudome in center, he looks good there. If the cubs can get a good right fielder you may see Edomonds on the bench pinch hitting when soriano comes back. Easier to find a right fielder then it is a center fielder. I don't know that the cubs have enough to get sabathia or if he would even fit in with the cubs the battle between whos number 1 might come up between Zambrano and sabathia. I think Burnett is the best fit for the cubs. There are some good right fielders out ther right now that would add alot to this lineup. Is fukudome going to stay at the lead off position I think he should. Don't Think the brewers can sign sabathia if they want to keep fielder on the team he is a free agent and don't know if they can afford both. It will be interesting to see where he ends up. I think the cubs are pretty much looking at Bedard and burnett both of those are better then what they are showing this year. But think about this The indians are not that deep in pitching in the minor league level so what about Hill, Marquis, Cedeno, Murton they do have alot of players on the DL and could use them. If you get C.C. them you dont need Marquis anymore anyway.
check this out...

Zambrano
Sabathia
Dempster
Lilly
Gallagher
What stops them from going after Sabathia and picking up Burnett cheap at the end of the season teams may not touch him and he wants to play for the cubs.

"…So, we have one year of bad production which started (because of injuries) with him being thrown into a rotation behind Westbrook and infront of Carmona (two pitchers with similar styles/arsenals) and success everywhere else from a prospect that was ranked as high as the 53rd best."

Darkstar, you say all this and how Sowers still has trade value, but the same can be said of Rich Hill and you say he has no value.

I agree that the Brewers probably couldn't resign Sabathia. What would be interesting is if the Indians asked for a deal with P. Fielder in it. I would write a thank you to the brewers if they offered Prince and Gamel. If that eal could get done I would even throw Hafner in if the Brewers could afford it. "This would never ever happen, but man would I be excited if it did"

About 2 weeks ago, I wanted the brewers to unload prince for a few young pitching prospects, but recently he has been hitting much better, the pitching staff is coming around, and the whole team is playing better. Im not sure if the brew crew can keep up with the cubbies but they absolutely have a shot at the wild card. Because they are in contention for a playoff spot, it would be very unlikely for prince to be traded in any circumstances, and remember , its not impossible for prince to be resigned, and I think if the brewers make the playoffs for the first time in 25 years, prince would be much more likely to resign.

As for Hafner, we dont need him, or want him.

How about a trade like this
Indians get
Bill Hall
Mat Gamel
Cole Gillespie (5th ranked brewers prospect by BA)
Brent Brewer/Lorenzo Cain/Caleb Gindl

Brewers get
C.C. Sabathia
(we also get draft compensation (a late first round draft pick from the yankees, (when they sign him this offseason) and the 1's overall pick in the compensation round (31st overall)

Oh...his minor league numbers? Yawn. Is that what was supposed to convince me that Sowers doesn't suck? And his so-so 2006 numbers? What about his numbers since? 92 innings, 36 Ks and 122 hits...did you forget to mention those? How convenient. They would have surely undermined your razor thin argument that Sowers doesn't suck. Everyone in baseball knows he sucks. Everyone, that is, except Indians fans who desperately want to trade him.

Oooops. The post above was supposed to go to a different thread.

"And when we lost, we didn't blame it on a guy who touched a foul ball.... or for that matter, a goat."

haha

Bill Hall? What a joke! I'm sure the Indians would love a free swinging .259 lifetime hitter. For Christ's sake he has more Ks than hits!

And BTW, Chicago is NOT cursed.

What a joke. You won a World Series like 3 years ago. Sorry you all just picked the wrong team.

Oh, and didn't you have that guy named Michael Jordan? I'm pretty sure he won a few titles.

And I'm pretty sure the Bears teams have been good, I seem to remember the '85 bears being the best team.... EVER.

Cleveland hasn't won any sort of title in like 50 years.

This "loveable losers" garbage makes me sick.

when i write "all these arguments" it refers to the last few weeks of news. If you would like to retrace them all, be my guest.

Well, I'm not going to re-trace previous threads but you won't hear from me that the Indians suck. They've had some pretty bad luck this year and some disappointing seasons from players they were counting on. I will, however, say something about individual players at times. I don't think Sowers is the type of pitcher other teams ask about. I'm not going to say that Sowers won't be a serviceable major league #5 type starter, it's certainly possible but I don't think any team will trade anyone significant to acquire the type of guy that every team has in their system. The Cubs, for example, have Sean Marshall. I wouldn't expect teams to give up much for him either. Hill is different, though. He has a nasty curveball and has proven that he's as tough to hit as anyone in the game. Opponents have hit .233 against him lifetime. Control is his only issue. If he starts throwing strikes again, teams will begin inquiring about Hill as much as they were this past offseason.

Is it 2006? My calendar says 2008. Sowers is good because of stats from 2006? That's all you got? That's just dripping with logic, isn't it?

Let's fast forward for his past two seasons... I believe he was 7th or 8th among starts then two...on his own team. 6.57 and 6.42...Hitters have hit .355 and .308.

Come back to the present, Dark. In 2008, Jeremy Sowers sucks.

By the way, how's Andy Marte doing? Is he approaching Brandon Phillips numbers yet? Was Andy Marte still considered a prospect in 2006 too? And Choo?

This is what you try to pass of as logic....stats from 2006. Wow. You are a master of self delusion.

Yeah, you seriously have major malfunctions or something. I cant figure out another reason to explain how someone could still forcefully attempt to argue things that arent true, weren’t ever said, or are completely illogical as a whole…

CC for Mat Gamal 3rd AA prospect / David Welch lefthander AA Prospect / Zelous Wheeler 2b A baller.
and maybe one more low A ball player

Everbody thinks the Indians would want the outfield prospects but they are really looking for 1st / 2nd / and 3rd baseman maybe shortstop or catcher this is the weekness in the minor league system. We are floaded with pitchers and outfielders .
David Huff and Cahrles Lofgren will get the call ups once CC and Byrd are gone.

And yes Sowers is a junkball pitcher was very disappointed , even though he has pitched well at times .
I don't think he possess the guts to ever live up to the hype I do believe he will be a seviceable Major League , But at the best never more than a 4 or 5 starter.