Braves Won't Be Dealing With Kinzer, Tellem

Can't say I blame Wren. People get on Boras alot, but what these two did was pretty low.

Can't say as I blame Wren too much. From what I read, it certainly appears that the Furcal's agent(s), while operating legally, didn't appear to honour verbal commitments.

If a man's word is worthless, what does that say about him and do you really want to do business with him?

"But Tellem does represent Randy Wolf, so you have to wonder if he's still an option for Atlanta."

No. Next question.

Pretty sure escobar just picked kinzer up as his agent too so I wonder what that means for him.

Tell it like it is, Frank Wren!

Like kboyer, I too hope it costs Kinzer and Tellem.

I'm not sure how accurate this is, but it looks like Tellem and Kinzer are with Wasserman Media Group.

Clients of possible/rumored interest to the Braves (meaning people who fit a current need):

Peter Moylan (uh-oh)
Alex Rios
Carlos Lee
Delmon Young
Edinson Volquez
John Grabow
Jose Guillen
Vicente Padilla

So we can forget talking about any of those guys. :)

joeym - the Braves were never granted the opportunity to counter the Dodger's 3/$39MM offer in 2005. So, no, they couldn't have resigned him.

I hope that this holds true next year. It really sucks for the Braves.

joeym, I don't know what front office you work in, but I'd make sure whatever mlb team you obviously work for hides it's assets and burns it's records.

Baleen...That life my friend..sometimes it's not nice and it's not fair. Not saying I agree with it but that just the way it is. People say one thing and do something else...it happens every day..that's why I say until you have a signed contract everything else is heresy.

joeym...it's not a matter of fair or foul, verbal agreements are commonly held binding in courts of law. Depending on the semantics of this whole ordeal a collusion case could be brought against Kinzer as well as the Dodgers, although it would be hard to prove the Dodgers were at any sort of fault. Some of this is sour grapes, admittedly, but if something can be challenged in an actual court then it can be challenged withing the governing rules of mlb...wait, we are talking about baseball, who turned a blind eye to illegal steroid use for years. Maybe you're right! I agree that GMs should proceed with caution in all cases, but especially with Kinzer now.

If I remember correctly, this thing kind of happened, although not to this extent, with his last contract. Hendry thought he had him signed and then he signed with the Dodgers at the last second.

Seems like this is a trend for Furcal. Did he have the same agent back then?

No current Braves have Kinzer/Tellem as agents.

Yeah, John Schuerholz always had a great reputation among owners and GMs, and always gave the Braves a good name. I suspect that Wren, because he worked so closely with JS, is well respected as well and might garner some sympathy from other owners and GMs. Because of this, I think this will really hurt Kinzer and Tellem with their other clients -- I don't see GMs being very willing to be flexible with them, especially when it comes to the amount of time they have to accept an offer.

Baleen, Good points...It's definetly between Kinzer and Wren...maybe it will be looked into however I agree, it has nothing to do with the Dodgers.

"Peter Moylan (uh-oh)
Alex Rios
Carlos Lee
Delmon Young
Edinson Volquez
John Grabow
Jose Guillen
Vicente Padilla"

From looking at that list, cannot see anything interesting anyway other than Carlos Lee.

Maybe Tellem and Kinzer got the attitude from Delmon Young? His is pretty rotten and it rubbed off onto them?

joeym2623: You may view it as the way life is but I choose to view it as unethical. There are millions of people who would never pull a stunt like that. If your agent has a signed offer sheet from a team, that would seem to constitute that an agreement has been reached. Regardless of whether it is or it isn't, shopping it to another team is highly and irrefutably unethical.

Jon B, Myabe they should take Kinzer to court and see how far they get with the arguement of a verbal agreement!

Yeah I can't blame the Dodgers either. I actually feel bad for the Dodgers as well as the Braves because the Dodgers got extorted out of another year and more money in a pretty despicable and unethical manner.

Kboyer14, I already said I don't agree with it... all I stated was that it happens in everyday life in every line of work... If you think it doesn't your being naive.

Yeah that def took away from my theory of Carlos Lee yesterday...but I wouldn't be surprised if Moylan would leave his agents, he is def a Brave and from interviews with him that's really the only place he cares to play...

I am going to send Frank Wren a case of tissues...

I never have seen a grown man cry as much as this guy.

He should look in the mirror....

Wren is the guy who cannot get a deal done...

See: Peavy, Burnett, Furcal

I don't think FW will cut ties with someone already in the organization based on this. I'm 100% sure it's just for future dealings, and good for him for taking a stand. Not that it's really that big of a deal, but it's nice to see him not taking what he perceives as crap.

MikeClarke, Disagreed!

joeym2623:

I agree with you that there was not a legally binding contract. But I disagree with you that what happened here happens all of the time in baseball contract negotiations. Steve Phillips, a former GM, stated yesterday that he has never seen a situation where a player or agent backed out of an agreement once the term sheet was signed. (Which was done at the agent's request, by the way.) Its one thing to say everything looks good but we want to give the Dodgers one final opportunity to match or beat your offer, it is quite another to ask for something that is commonly known to be one step away from a signed legal contract.

Again, I agree with you that there is nothing that can be legally done about it, but you can't conduct business in this manner and expect to be successful. Kinzer will lose a lot of credibility over this and you know it.

Thungersticks, I'm not saying that it happens all the time, I’m just saying that it does happen...and believe me I'm not saying that it's the right way to conduct business..However, I can't sit here and cry and say hoe appalled I am...Stuff like this happens...and believe me this won't be the last time something like this happens

As a dodger fan, I am really excited to have furcal back, but you do have to wonder what actually happened. While it seems quite underhanded on kinzer, tellem, and furcal's part, this kind of stuff has to happen all the time, the only difference is that this situation actually made it into the media. That is kind of Wren's fault, most GMs wouldn't let that happen because when something like this happens its can be really embarrassing. I'm not trying to bag on Wren (I mean come on we have Ned!) or the Braves but he is starting to develop a reputation that he can be jerked around.

On another note, don't you think that this is pretty mild compared to what Boras would have done. Braves fans, think back to the 05 offseason and the JD Drew drama for the dodgers, it was pretty similar, but I think we got screwed even harder. This is just part of baseball and the Brave's front office made the mistake of letting the media run with it.

joeym2623,

So many of these braves fans are so pissed off about this whole situation, but they have to point the finger, at least to some extent, at their own front office, not just the agents and furcal.

I do think that Furcal's agents actions deserve this critism but i do believe we have to also question Atlanta's front office at this point. I understand that in each deal there were hold ups, Furcal wanting to return to LA, AJ having the Yankees involved, and Peavy with Towers demands, but he hasnt been able to do anything he really wanted this year. I am starting to question his ability. His best deal was a steal of a stupidly desperate Tigers who needed a SS badly, but he hasn't really made any moves that are good solid trades fair to both parties (unknown if thats true if Flowers turns into a good solid catcher that will change).

I say that the Dodgers didn't do anything wrong, they had the option of being classy and walking away, but this is a business and they are looking out for their best interest not the Braves, so I can not find fault there. It also to be noted that though verbal agreements can be held up in court, they have be made in person and must have service provided/product deliever to be held up.

Cutmeibleedblue, Understood...I’m a braves fan but I'm also a realist and this offseason has been a disaster for the Braves...so far. They can look in the mirror and blame themselves.

"He should look in the mirror....

Wren is the guy who cannot get a deal done...

See: Peavy, Burnett, Furcal"

Will people shut up about the Peavy-Braves deal now.

It is better to NOT make a deal than it is to WAY overpay in terms of talent.

Same goes with Burnett, except just substitute money in the place of talent.

As a braves fan it sucks we lost out on another FA. there is nothing legally wrong with what happend just the pricipal of the way things went down. Hey its a business they got burned and they are apprantley not going to make that mistake with these agents again.

That being said, FW still has work to do! lets get some FA or some trades and get our roster together

Peter Moylan (uh-oh)
Alex Rios
Carlos Lee
Delmon Young
Edinson Volquez
John Grabow
Jose Guillen
Vicente Padilla"

From looking at that list, cannot see anything interesting anyway other than Carlos Lee.

----------------------------------------

So you say Edinson Volquez and Alex Rios are not interesting. Any team would take these two in a hurry.

joeym,

As a dodger's fan I totally respect the strategy of the braves front office (especially through the 1990s). I'm not crazy about the team, but to win all those games with a limited payroll and farm development is something to be proud of. I'm not sure what is going on with them, but I will say, in my opinion, they are not out on peavy yet. I think towers may get desperate and have to accept a lesser offer in the future. In the meantime, Wren needs to grow a pair and start being a hardass!

cutmeibleedblue: kinzer tried to play the dodgers offer off of wren to squeeze more money out of the brave's. wren said we had an agreement and no changes to said agreement will be made.

that, to me, is the essence of being a hardass.

Wren HAS been a hardass - that's why we didn't get Peavy or Burnett. He didn't give up any more than he wanted to. Are you expecting him to pull a gun on somebody or something?

"How can you compare what JD Drew and Boras did to the Dodgers with this? Drew just said wasn't going to opt out, then he did."

nixa37,

what you are forgetting is that Drew and Boras gave the dodgers everything but a signed document that said that Drew would stay with the dodgers and then went to the BoSox. It may be a bit different, but my point was that the dodgers never ran to the media saying that it was a 100% sure thing. I'm not disagreeing that Wren and the Braves got screwed and look like they totally got played today, I'm just trying to say that there are other similar instances that never reach this point.

joeym2623:

I've never worked in the front office of a baseball organization and I assume you and pretty much everyone else on this blog haven't either. But Phillips has and obviously knows a lot of other GMs. If he says that the signing of the term sheet is understood as an essentially done deal, I believe him. If he says he's never heard of this scenario, I believe him. So to say that this happens (maybe not all the time, but happens), I must respectfully disagree with you. Based on what has been made public to this point, and there could be a lot more to this than we currently know, I would have to say that Kinzer's actions were absolutely WRONG.

I would go a step further and argue that it could be argued that there was a verbal contract being as Wren made an offer and the agent essentially accepted it by virtue of Kinzer's request for the term sheet - which by all accounts indicates a deal has been agreed to. Wren would not pursue it, and I agree, as Furcal has obviously made his choice and I would not want a player that doesn't want to be here.

cutmeibleedblue:

I could care less whether we got Furcal or not. I would have liked the move, but am not upset that he chose the Dodgers over the Braves. That is his choice. What I, and most Braves fans, are upset about is the way Kinzer conducted business.

However, I completely disagree with you on the JD Drew situation. While it may have been a surprise to you Dodgers fans that the opt-out clause was in his contract and you were upset that he exercised it, I can't really say you got screwed on the deal. Your GM knew, or should have know, that clause was in the contract before signing it and knew, or should have know, that he might exercise his right to opt out. Two completely different scenarios, IMO.

"Worth noting is the la times says colletti was displeased with the way kinzer handled the negotiations as well."

Any GM with any sort of ethical standards will agree that the way Kinzer handled the situation was dirty. However, what Coletti did was not wrong in any capacity. If you can benefit from somebody else being scum than you should.

JonB: depends on what state you live in. It requires more than that. It also requires a service rendered or a product delivered. With this kind of contract, nothing is binding until both parties have signed the document, so unless they can unearth that its a mute point.

Of course I was being sarcastic you idiot. This wasn't just an agent playing one side off the other. This was an agent doing something that at least 3 GMs (past or present) have now said they have never heard of an agent doing before. When an agent asks you to send a signed offer sheet, its a done deal. Scott Boras, as bad as he is, has never gotten a team to send him a signed offer sheet so that he can go show it to another team to get them to up their offer. I just can't fathom why you are trying to justify what this agent did. Just about everyone in the business seems to think its pretty shady at best.

Thumper, actually, service rendered or a product delivered would be what the verbal agreement was for. Its morally and ethically wrong what Kinzer did, end of story.

cutmeibleedblue,

Its the fact that there was a signed, binding offer asked for by Kinzer. That takes the situation to a higher level. Obviously, there are plenty of times that a team thinks they have a guy locked up only to lose him in the end. As far as we know, this may be the first time a team actually signed a binding offer to finalize a deal, only to find out that the other party used that signed deal as leverage for a new deal. Its one thing for an agent to speculate on the offers he has on the table. Its another to purposefully mislead a team into putting an offer in writing so that the other team knows you aren't bluffing and the exact amount and terms they need to beat. Seriously man this isn't complicated.

nixa37,

I'm still not sure why you think that I am unaware of what happened in this situation. Just so you don't waste any more time or space "re-explaining" what happened, I get it.

If something so wrong or unethical occurred in this deal why is Selig or the players union not commenting on it. Let's get some officials to at least give a comment or start an investigation. That's not going to happen which supports my argument that this you are making this out to be a much bigger deal then it actually is.

There were a lot of mistakes in that post sorry everyone.

affection = affecting

"I called you an idiot because you thought something that was clearly sarcasm was my actual opinion...whatever."

Oh, sorry, its a bit hard to tell when someone is sarcastic when they do not use a sarcastic tone and you are reading what they are writing. Apparently, you are quite immature and unable to have a sophisticated and adult argument. But that's ok. Wait, am I being serious or sarcastic?

"it's not a matter of fair or foul, verbal agreements are commonly held binding in courts of law."

Any agreement that cannot be completed in one year must be written down. Therefore, any "verbal agreement" between Furcal and the Braves would be unenforceable.

"Steve Phillips, a former GM, stated yesterday that he has never seen a situation where a player or agent backed out of an agreement once the term sheet was signed."

Only one party signed the term sheet. Furcal never sent it back signed. Again, that's just an offer that wasn't accepted. Nothing legally was done wrong.

As for the ethical issues... what is ethically wrong with trying to get the best deal? If someone wants to buy a corporation the board of directors has a DUTY to it's shareholders to get the best price it can. That would include taking a deal offered by one person and showing it to a second person to see who'll give the better deal. There is nothing "ethically" wrong with what Kinzer did. You may not like it, and on it's face it's not going to endear Kinzer to some front offices, but he did what he is bound to do: get the best possible deal for his client. Obviously that meant more than just cash, as Furcal turned down more guaranteed money from the A's and accepted the same amount of money from the Dodgers that the Braves offered. Clearly Furcal had a preference and Kinzer did what he had to do to get the best possible deal out of the Dodgers.

cutmeibleedblue,

I think I'll put up my reputation on this site for being able to have a rational adult argument against just about anyone.

As for not being able to figure out it was sarcasm, does the 2nd sentence really not give it away

"Braves fans should blame the front office for coming to terms with Furcal and sending over a signed (and thus binding from their end) offer sheet to Furcal with the expectation that he would be signing it shortly. That's only how it had worked every other time they did the exact same thing."

If you had any idea what you were talking about you would realize the Braves didn't make an official announcement either. Sources within the organization confirmed rumors of a preliminary agreement. Sources aren't official sources of information. They are people with ties to journalists who will give up a little more information than they are really supposed to. Seriously man I can't believe I'm wasting this much time trying to explain such simple things to you.

DodgersBruin,

Its binding to the Braves. At any point, once Kinzer and Furcal sign offer sheet that Wren already signed, there is a binding offer. That's why agents don't ask for the signed offer sheet until there client is ready to sign. If this was accepted practice and asking for a signed offer sheet wasn't "taking it to another level," then why do no other agents do this? Don't you think the reason that no GMs remember anything like this happening before is because other agents never do it? Doesn't the fact that no other agents stoop this low tell you something about how screwed up it is?