 |
|
|
| |
« Cards Turning Page On Fuentes? | Main | A's To Talk Contract With Giambi Soon »
Furcal Signs With Dodgers
FRIDAY, 8:37pm: The Furcal deal is official. Jesse Spector has quotes from the conference call.
WEDNESDAY, 9:08pm: Just to keep this baby going, we have the contract numbers from Tony Jackson. A backloaded three years, $30MM, $3MM of which is a bonus at the end of the contract. The 2012 option for $13MM does vest with 600 PAs in '11.
8:23pm: The deal may be done, but we still can't get the numbers nailed down. According to Tim Brown's writethru, it could be either $33MM or $30MM. Brown has "a Dodgers source" who says it's the latter "and includes a fourth-year option for $12 million, vesting with 600 plate appearances in the third year. Other incentives could bring the total worth of the deal to about $45 million." The AP report (below) that gave the $33MM figure had quoted " a person familiar with the negotiations."
7:43pm: This MLB.com report from Ken Gurnick says "it is believed the deal is pending the passing of a physical exam." That's probably about as final as we're going to get for now. It's worth noting that a little bit earlier, Tony Jackson talked to Kinzer, who said such a statement would be premature. (The Dodgers, like most teams, don't confirm deals until after the physical.)
7:08pm: The AP says the final numbers on the contract are 3 years, $33MM:
Furcal gets $7.5 million next season, $9.5 million in 2010 and $13 million in 2011. The deal includes a $13 million team option for 2012 with a $3 million buyout.
7:02pm: This wire report from CBSSports.com has a quote from Kinzer:
"They know we didn't have a signed contract, that we didn't have even a verbal agreement. We had, 'Things look very good and Raffy's going to sleep on it,'" Kinzer said after a news conference for another client, Francisco Rodriguez.
5:53pm: Rosenthal has updated his post with a bit more info and a timeline from Wren. Around midnight on Monday, after much negotiating, Kinzer told Wren, "we're good." Tuesday morning, says Rosenthal (note the slight discrepancy from Brown's report below), Wren "got a voicemail from Kinzer" asking for the term sheet to be put together and faxed to him, which Wren did. "Shortly thereafter, Kinzer began 'backpedaling,' saying he promised the Dodgers he would talk to them." And on Tuesday, the Dodgers "suddenly" appeared willing to grant Furcal a third year -- and today, the Braves were told that Furcal would not be joining them.
5:43pm: Tim Brown reports that the Braves had sent Furcal a signed term sheet, according to "a club source." Monday night, Kinzer asked for the paperwork to be faxed to him. Braves GM Frank Wren complied Tuesday morning. Writes Brown:
No member of the Braves’ front office – not Wren, not longtime former GM John Schuerholz – could recall a time when a signed term sheet was not the equivalent of a handshake agreement, ethically – if not legally – binding.
Brown adds that the Braves believe Kinzer shopped the term sheet to the Dodgers, who had been reluctant to commit to a third year.
4:47pm: The latest from Rosenthal:
The Dodgers and Furcal were still hammering out an agreement Wednesday afternoon, sources said, but the Braves had been informed that Furcal would not accept their deal.
4:10pm: Ken Rosenthal says Furcal decided to sign with the Dodgers.
Mark Bowman's latest doesn't suggest Furcal made a decision, but he does explain why the Braves thought they had a deal. Bowman's source believes the Dodgers offered three years plus a fourth-year player option.
11:48am: Yahoo's Tim Brown: Furcal is "nearing an agreement with the Dodgers." Joel Sherman learned from Kinzer that the Dodgers are in the lead, having matched the Braves' three-year, $30MM (plus a fourth-year vesting option) offer. Paul Kinzer told Sherman the idea of switching to second base for the Braves gave Furcal pause.
Kinzer told Danny Knobler there was never a verbal agreement with the Braves. Kinzer lives in Atlanta and received 50 phone calls from fans after the story broke yesterday.
9:39am: Yesterday we watched as Rafael Furcal and his agents seemingly ignored a gentleman's agreement with the Braves to continue negotiating with the Dodgers. Dylan Hernandez of the L.A. Times learned from Ned Colletti that the Dodgers improved their offer to Furcal (the original was two years with a vesting option).
According to Buster Olney, the Braves offered three years, $30MM with a vesting option for the fourth year. Olney says the A's were at $38MM guaranteed over four years.
Sarah Green also contributed to this post.
TrackBack
TrackBack URL for this entry:
http://www.typepad.com/services/trackback/6a00d834515b9a69e20105368255d9970c
Listed below are links to weblogs that reference Furcal Signs With Dodgers:
Comments
Verify your Comment
Previewing your Comment
This is only a preview. Your comment has not yet been posted.
As a final step before posting your comment, enter the letters and numbers you see in the image below. This prevents automated programs from posting comments.
Having trouble reading this image? View an alternate.
Top Stories
Search MLBTR
MLBTR Features
Recent Posts
Rumors By Team
Monthly Archives
Live Chats
Tuesdays at 2 p.m. CST
We've gone after three players and missed, that doesnt make the braves organization a "hole" as one of u idiot dodger fans said. and no im not calling the dodgers fan base idiotic, just mattsdodgersSD. Every team misses out on players throughout the course of the off season, atlanta's attempts have just been more publicized.
Posted by: bravesfan22193 | December 17, 2008 at 05:44 PM
"There is not really one player on your NL west champion Dodger team that I would trade for the corresponding position on my near last place braves team."
Well that's good to know. Obviously Martin/McCann is pretty close to a wash. Can't go wrong with either player.
I'm glad you'd rather have Francouer than Ethier. Any of your CFs than Kemp. Any of your pitchers than Bills (201 Ks, 139 ERA+) or Kershaw (20 years old, better stuff than anyone in your organization). And have fun with Mike Gonzalez as your closer instead of Broxton. You're right. Your team is MUCH better than the current Dodgers.
Posted by: DodgersBruin | December 17, 2008 at 05:45 PM
This is going to get messy!
Posted by: whitesox4life | December 17, 2008 at 05:46 PM
Sheets had a 139 ERA+. He's 29. If anything, I'd compare him more the Pedro with the Red Sox (obviously not as good) than Schmidt. Sheets needs to take his annual DL trip, yes. But he's an ACE when healthy. He's 10 times the pitcher AJ Burnett is. And with the Dodgers depth as SP with McDonald and Stults, they can afford an August DL trip each year for the next 3 years.
Sheets pitched 198 innings last year and was effective. He stumbled to the finish line much like Schmidt did a few years ago. Until last year Sheets has been mostly inneffective since 2004. He is no longer an ace and he isn't any better than our own ace Bills.
I'd rather spend the money smarter on someone who will give us starts throughout the year and settle with starting Elbert or MacDonald in the 5th spot.
Comparing anyone to Pedro is wrong. Sheets has never been what Pedro was. Nor will he ever be.
Posted by: dusto | December 17, 2008 at 05:46 PM
nixa37,
You are right. The bottom line was that Kinzer used the Braves' offer as leverage to get the Dodgers to up their offer.
The context should be pretty clear:
Furcal wanted to stay in LA versus going to Atlanta.
Let's be honest, if Furcal wanted to be a Brave, then he would have been one by yesterday.
The whole Raffy was excited to be a Brave again was probably just a ploy by Raffy and Kinzer to goad the Dodgers to a better offer.
As far as a term sheet usually meaning a deal is struck, well, if that's the case, then it sucks that it came down that way.
Actually, it sounds like the Braves are trying to embarrass Raffy and guilt him into signing with them.
I mean if they were so wronged, then they should just removed the offer completely, right?
Instead, they say how they were misled and disappointed BUT the offer still stands.
Again, I will wait to see the terms of the deal before I say whether its good but by the sounds of Atlanta's disappointment, it seems like the Dodgers may sign Furcal for less years but maybe more possible dollars per year.
Kinzer probably got the Dodgers to up the average annual amount en lieu of guaranteeing more years. And Raffy will end up being fine with that along with the comfort of knowing he will stay at SS.
Again, we just have to see how it all plays out.
Posted by: Die-Hard Dodger Fan | December 17, 2008 at 05:47 PM
haha if we want to talk about failures that a team has with signing players, has anyone looked to see which two players the Dodgers paid the most last season. Hmm Andruw Jones who didnt start half the season and couldn't hit .200 and Jason Schmidt who had an ERA so high (6.31) that could almost make Andruw Jone's hitting look good.
Good $30 million spent last year. Looks to me like LA is the place where free agents go to die but still get paid
Posted by: OffJohn'sRocker | December 17, 2008 at 05:48 PM
Matt, for the love of all that is good and holy please stop typing in ALL CAPS. It's bad form. I'm a DOdger fan and you're embarrassing me.
Might be time to start moderating comments here -- not that Tim doesn't have other things to do. ;-)
Btw, gosh, agents playing two teams off each other, that never happens! Except about 100 times a year. :-/
Posted by: Craig Phillips | December 17, 2008 at 05:49 PM
Also, Im sick and tired of hearing about this "stacked"
dodger team that beat the cubs in the playoffs. Three points. 1) A high school state champ could be the cubs in the playoffs the way they have choked the last couple years. 2)They lost to an NL east team in the phillies. 3) We won the season series against LA last year anyways
Posted by: lueds20 | December 17, 2008 at 05:49 PM
"Seriously your calling me ignorant for saying that every team has at least some young talent?"
Not to the level of players like Martin, Kemp, Bills and Kershaw. Do all teams have young players? Yes. Do all teams have multiple players that are going to compete for MVP and the Cy Young year after year? No. Thus, your statement saying that all teams have young talent may be correct because all teams have at least one player, it's ignorant to compare those players to the Dodgers current roster of scout-projected All Stars, MVP candidates and Cy Young contenders.
Posted by: DodgersBruin | December 17, 2008 at 05:49 PM
Yeah someone let Tim know to ban mattsdodgersSD. He's clearly just trying to attack and he hasn't made any actual attempt to add anything to the conversation.
Posted by: nixa37 | December 17, 2008 at 05:51 PM
DodgersBruin,
I'm not saying we are much better. I'm saying overall its a wash when comparing if not our favor.
Sounds good to me when comparing 4th place in division vs division champs
Posted by: OffJohn'sRocker | December 17, 2008 at 05:52 PM
wow...what if both the dodgers and braves withdraw their offers after this fiasco....furcal will be stuck in oakland...hahaha
Posted by: da510nica | December 17, 2008 at 05:55 PM
da510,
That is the best thing i have heard all day.
Posted by: OffJohn'sRocker | December 17, 2008 at 05:56 PM
"Sounds good to me when comparing 4th place in division vs division champs"
The Braves weren't close to being as good as the Dodgers last year in terms of talent. You had a better 3B. You had a better SS when Furcal was injured. Other than that, the Dodgers had better talent at every position. And you forget, the Dodgers pitching staff was the BEST in the NL.
Dodgers ERA: 3.68
Braves ERA: 4.46
The Dodgers pitching staff was head and shoulders above the Braves pitching staff last year. And they'll be better than the Braves pitching staff for the next 5 years.
Posted by: DodgersBruin | December 17, 2008 at 05:57 PM
Die-Hard Dodger Fan,
I don't think LA was really that far ahead of ATL in terms of who Furcal wanted to play for. Furcal really looks up to Bobby Cox and he still has a house in Atlanta. The Braves clearly had the best offer on the table and Furcal was ready to sign it. I think its obvious that his agent convinced him to wait and once the Dodgers made a competitive offer that would allow Furcal to stay at SS, it was really a no-brainer, whether or not Furcal really preferred LA. Are you arguing with anything there?
The Braves don't sound like they're trying to embarrass Raffy or guilt him into signing. Actually, they really haven't expressed any animosity towards him. They have expressed a lot of frustration and possibly anger with regards to Kinzer, but not Furcal.
The reason the offer still stands is they though Furcal was worth that money yesterday morning, and nothing has really changed since then other than the Dodgers offer and Furcal's preferred destination. Besides, I think the whole point of Wren signing the offer sheet is that it becomes a binding offer. Kinzer has that and if he and Furcal both sign it, I think the Braves would be breaking the terms of the offer sheet if they didn't honor it.
Posted by: nixa37 | December 17, 2008 at 05:59 PM
"Obviously Martin/McCann is pretty close to a wash."
lol, since when is a difference of ~1.5 WAR "pretty close to a wash"?
Posted by: iamnobody | December 17, 2008 at 05:59 PM
All that young dodgers talent got you no where without Manny. Good luck with signing a head case like that. Maybe washed up players like Nomar, Schmidt, and Pierre can get you another weak NL Least division championship.
Posted by: OklahomaBrave | December 17, 2008 at 06:02 PM
"Well that's good to know. Obviously Martin/McCann is pretty close to a wash. Can't go wrong with either player.
I'm glad you'd rather have Francouer than Ethier. Any of your CFs than Kemp. Any of your pitchers than Bills (201 Ks, 139 ERA+) or Kershaw (20 years old, better stuff than anyone in your organization). And have fun with Mike Gonzalez as your closer instead of Broxton. You're right. Your team is MUCH better than the current Dodgers"
Mac and martin arent a wash. Mac is better. And ya id rather have a gonzo than browxton. And I think jair is just as good as broxton and right now better than kershaw although kershaw has a higher ceiling.
And dodgerbruin did i ever say that every team has as much talent as the dodgers?? No i didnt. I simply said that every team has young talent and you called me ignorant for that?? It seems like your the one coming off ignorant...
Posted by: chipperowns10 | December 17, 2008 at 06:04 PM
DodgersBruin,
I don't agree with the guy you are arguing with, but to argue that Russell Martin is better than Brian McCann is just asinine. Are you really going to try and argue that .280/.385/.396 106 OPS+ is better than .301/.373/.523 134 OPS+. I won't argue with the fact that Martin is better on the basepaths and defensively, but no where near enough to make up for the gigantic difference in hitting abilities. Martin is a guy who will be one of the top 5-7 catchers in the game for a long time to come. Brian McCann is on a HOF career path. I hope you notice the difference.
Posted by: nixa37 | December 17, 2008 at 06:04 PM
Well...before I defended Raffy...now after these facts from Rosenthal (assuming they are accurate) I personally am disgusted with Rafael Furcal.
I'm ashamed he ever wore a Braves uniform. He used us. As a result, I seriously want JJ to bean him first chance he gets. That's just not ethical. Legality aside...that's just not right. Baseball really is a business now...
I hope Furcal breaks his stinkin' back. I will say this though...
"Escobar will be named an All-Star before Furcal ever will for the rest of their careers" Not only that, but Escobar will be sent to the All-Star game many more times. He is a real talent and I'm glad that we dont' have to worry about losing him to a trade now.
If Furcal tries to do an about-face this time,...I hope we kick him out the door... Maybe Oakland will sign him...
Hey Raffy...maybe you should just change your mind about baseball all together, why don't you change to basketball...football...yard-bowling. Seems like something you would do.
Posted by: kdmarkum | December 17, 2008 at 06:04 PM
Wow, Kinzer= scumbag. My sympathies for the Braves on this one. Does signing Furcal put less emphasis on retaining Manny for the Dodgers?
Posted by: Reality Check | December 17, 2008 at 06:06 PM
I'm tired of people attacking Braves fans for expressing their opinion. I could take it if it's Mets or Phils fans. I guess we are looked at like the Yanks because we dominated for so long.
Posted by: OklahomaBrave | December 17, 2008 at 06:06 PM
Dodgersbruin ur saying a mixture of kemp dewitt and whoever else u had at 2nd is better than kelly johnson?? and that martin is better than mac??
Posted by: chipperowns10 | December 17, 2008 at 06:06 PM
I would never renege on a deal like that. Kinzer has no class.
Posted by: Scott Boras | December 17, 2008 at 06:06 PM
Dodger's staff also didnt get wiped out by the injury bug. Not discounting the Dodger staff, but ours had no one in it most of the season.
Talent wise, i'll take atlanta C, SS, 3B, and RF (yes you said talent, frenchie is very talented but had a horrible year as we all know). Pitching I can't compare because all i can argue is best case scenario for us right now b/c of our injuries last season so i'll give you that for the most part.
Posted by: OffJohn'sRocker | December 17, 2008 at 06:07 PM
"All that young dodgers talent got you no where without Manny. Good luck with signing a head case like that. Maybe washed up players like Nomar, Schmidt, and Pierre can get you another weak NL Least division championship."
I do love how everyone talks about how terrible the NL West is. Two years ago, didn't the Dbacks have the best record in the NL? Didn't the Rockies go to the WS? Didn't 4 of 5 teams have records above .500? Hasn't the NL West had the Wild Card 3 of the past 5 years?
Posted by: DodgersBruin | December 17, 2008 at 06:10 PM
Chipperowns, you're an idiot.
1.) it's Kent at 2B, Kemp is an OF
2.) Kelly Johnson isn't a great player.
2.) Martin > McCann
Posted by: metzfan22 | December 17, 2008 at 06:11 PM
"Dodger's staff also didnt get wiped out by the injury bug."
So losing Penny for the season, spending $15M on Schmidt not to pitch a game, losing Kuroda for part of the year... that's not wiping out a pitching staff? We also lost our closer and Kuo for stretches at a time. And STILL had the best pitching staff in the NL.
Posted by: DodgersBruin | December 17, 2008 at 06:11 PM
It seems like we have gotten a little off track, this isn't about comparing Dodgers and Braves. We could do that all night long.
Bottom line, the more info that comes out the worse the furcal camp looks. Can't blame them for trying to get the best deal but I think it will come back to bite them in the long run.
Everything being said, I have enjoyed dicussing this with you Dodgersbruin even if we disagree. Its nice to see someone who actually uses facts in his arguments and not emotions.
Posted by: OffJohn'sRocker | December 17, 2008 at 06:12 PM
I understand the comments people are saying that an agent has a right to increase leverage in favor of his client, but I think it's one thing to say to an owner "I have such and such offers on the table," but it's quite another thing to take a signed offer sheet (if it's indeed the equivalent of a verbal agreement, which it would make sense that it is) and present it to another team.
I hear some people making the argument that unless the offer is signed, you can walk out, but I disagree completely. What Furcal and his people did is the baseball equivalent of proposing to a woman and then turning and marrying someone else. While it's not "illegal," it's pretty despicable.
Posted by: fuzbal | December 17, 2008 at 06:13 PM
DodgersBruin, the NL West is pretty bad. It's a pretty sorry division.
Posted by: metzfan22 | December 17, 2008 at 06:13 PM
McCann had a .320 OBP in 2007. He was .373 last season. Martin was .374 and .385 OBP the last two seasons. Martin also steals bases while McCann has more power. They're both about the same defensively.
I'd say that Martin and McCann year in and year out are going to be neck and neck. I wouldn't really call either one better than the other. I think if Martin plays less than 150 games a year he might have more power. But I don't think you can say either player is definitively better than the other.
Posted by: DodgersBruin | December 17, 2008 at 06:16 PM
nixa37,
I think the issue of playing SS versus 2B was somewhat of an issue, HOWEVER I still think Furcal wanted to see if the Dodgers would make an offer that was competitive to the Braves' offer.
That's why I say we won't really know the whole story until the offer is released.
If the offer is a 2yrs +1 option yr for higher avg per yr than $10 mill, then I think its clear that Raffy was willing to take less guaranteed money to stay in LA but that he wanted LA to up the guaranteed money and the Braves' offer did that.
If the deal is 3 yrs guaranteed plus a player option, then I agree that the Dodgers and Braves were on equal footing and the Dodgers had to beat the Braves' offer to get him to come to LA.
Also, if the offer is the same offer, I would say that Raffy preferred LA because if he didn't, then why wouldn't he have just signed the Braves' offer if he liked Atlanta equally, especially since they offered him the deal first.
We'll just have to wait and see...
Posted by: Die-Hard Dodger Fan | December 17, 2008 at 06:18 PM
When's the last time the NL west won a World Series. KIRK GIBSON
Posted by: OklahomaBrave | December 17, 2008 at 06:19 PM
hahahahaa metzfan22, ill give you one thing i did accidently put kemp instead of kent and ya i knew it was kent. But then martin over mac?? And u say kelly isnt a great player ok... is ANYONE the dodgers put at 2nd base a great player??? hmmm answer = NO. The comment was kelly was better than anyone the dodgers put at 2nd last year not that he was great. Wow I bet mattsdodgersd is glad u came over here to start posting ur mets garage because now he is not the dumbest person on here
Posted by: chipperowns10 | December 17, 2008 at 06:21 PM
Agreed DodgersBruin. I think there's a significant drop-off in NL catchers after McCann, Martin, and Soto.
Posted by: fuzbal | December 17, 2008 at 06:22 PM
Garbage*
Posted by: chipperowns10 | December 17, 2008 at 06:23 PM
First of all as a Dodger fan I am completely ecstatic that raffy is back. He is a critical piece to the puzzle.
I think the point that everyone is overlooking is that the dodgers performed the way they did last year with multiple injuries to some of their most critical players. Furcal, Saito, Penny, Kuroda (for a while), Kent, Nomar, Proctor and a handful of others were all on the DL. I'm not even counting Schmidt or Jones because at this point we're all just waiting to get them off the payroll. With all those injuries to our pitching staff we still had the best pitching in the NL, can you braves fans say the same? I think not. Let's just face it, the braves will never repeat the run they had in the 1990s (no team may ever even come close ever again).
With all the money the dodgers still have to spend this offseason can only get better from here on out. Lets get a bat and some pitching Ned!!! Stop hating braves fans, your jealousy is showing!
Posted by: cutmeibleedblue | December 17, 2008 at 06:27 PM
You guys should keep in mind that the NL west was the best division in baseball in 06 and 07.
Posted by: cutmeibleedblue | December 17, 2008 at 06:28 PM
"Agreed DodgersBruin. I think there's a significant drop-off in NL catchers after McCann, Martin, and Soto."
What about Yadier Molina?
Posted by: CalCubsfan | December 17, 2008 at 06:28 PM
Sorry meant to say in the NL not baseball. Hit the enter button too quick!
Posted by: cutmeibleedblue | December 17, 2008 at 06:29 PM
cutmeibleedblue have u read the comments?? Coming from a braves fan ill admit you guys had a better pitching staff and that we were not able to overcome our injuries to the starting pitching. Does that change the fact that there are dodger fans on here posting ridiculous things, like martin is better than mac, that im ignorant for saying every team has young talent, that besides ss and 3b the dodgers are superior to the braves in every category?? Why dont u read what were actually talking about before being so quick to judge...
Posted by: chipperowns10 | December 17, 2008 at 06:32 PM
ESPN says the deal is for 3 years, 33 million..
Posted by: Hyro | December 17, 2008 at 06:33 PM
and cut me blue why does it matter what happened in 2007 and 2006??? Does it change the fact that the west was a joke last year??
Posted by: chipperowns10 | December 17, 2008 at 06:33 PM
2008 is the first time the Dodgers have won a playoff series since 1988. I guess that you guys do have reason to be so excited by finally wining some games.
We here in Atlanta are used to it, I guess a couple of down seasons was worth being the most dominant team in its respective division in the history of major sports.
Posted by: OffJohn'sRocker | December 17, 2008 at 06:33 PM
http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/B/BBN_DODGERS_FURCAL?SITE=CAACS&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT
hey tim, that link is another place saying its for sure..and all the details
Posted by: garrison | December 17, 2008 at 06:34 PM
McCann has .130 SLG over Martin and Marton has a net of 7 steals over McCann. Hardly a contest, is it?
The Braves have a clearly superior infield and catcher than the Dodgers, and the Dodgers have a clearly superior outfield than the Braves. The Dodgers two young pitchers, Billingsley and Kershaw, are also a year further along than their Braves counterparts, Jurrjens and Hanson. Likewise the Braves outfield talent can be as good as the Dodgers, but is about three years behind.
Both teams have holes to fill in the rest of their rotation for the future and have the money to do that.
All these debates are a bit pointless though, as neither's 2009 team is finished.
Posted by: NickC | December 17, 2008 at 06:35 PM
This place is unbearable sometimes. Nixa37, I don't know how you put up with it all the time.
Metzfan22...you said Kelly Johnson isn't a great player, which is probably true. But he's a damn fine 2B. And of all teams, should you really be making fun of another team's 2B? Your 2B situation is a complete debacle.
Posted by: Smoltz's Beard | December 17, 2008 at 06:37 PM
Yeah looks like it is finally official. He signed for less than his last 3 yr contract with the Dodgers, and about a million a year more than the braves were offering.
I think the big deal breaker for Furcal is he probably didnt want to play 2nd base b/c the terms on both the Dodgers and Braves offers seem very similar
Posted by: OffJohn'sRocker | December 17, 2008 at 06:38 PM
Baseball players need to grow balls and forget about the money, you play baseball because you love it, it should never be about money. We need more players like Chipper and Oswalt that care more about a team, and not about money. I understand that baseball is a business, but what has gone on this offseason is just plain immaturity.
Posted by: BravesRed | December 17, 2008 at 06:38 PM
nikic i agree with pretty much everything u said except i dont think kershaw is a year further along than jair. I would actually say its the opposite. Id say right now jj is the more battle tested experienced pitcher over kershaw although kershaw clearly has more upside that he will most likely live up to.
Posted by: chipperowns10 | December 17, 2008 at 06:38 PM
"
2008 is the first time the Dodgers have won a playoff series since 1988. I guess that you guys do have reason to be so excited by finally wining some games.
We here in Atlanta are used to it, I guess a couple of down seasons was worth being the most dominant team in its respective division in the history of major sports."
Wow. With all those division titles, you must be feeling great. How many World Series did you win in all that? Maybe it was more a function of you being in a horrible division than you actually being a good team. If I remember correctly, wasn't the NL East pretty putrid during the 90's? The Phillies weren't any good. The Mets sucked until 1999. The Expos were a joke. And the Marlins were good for 1 year.
But keep touting those division titles. That's what makes you dominant.
Posted by: DodgersBruin | December 17, 2008 at 06:39 PM
finally....a reputable and reliable source confirms this...
http://www.insidesocal.com/dodgers/2008/12/furcal-wil-re-s.html
Posted by: dodgrdog88 | December 17, 2008 at 06:41 PM
DodgersBruin,
McCann's numbers were down in 2007 due to a low BABIP and an ankle injury that led to a 6 for 49 slump where he walked just 3 times. When you watched him you could tell the ankle was seriously bothering him. Other than that, McCann posted a .286 average with a .336 OBP. Throw in the fact that McCann also posted a .388 OBP in 2006 and a .345 as a rookie in 2005 and I think its obvious that 2007 was an aberration. Martin's career OPS+ is 108 while McCann's is 122. Martin slugged just .396 last year, 127 points lower than McCann. Yeah Martin stole more bases (though McCann was 5 of 5 compared to 18 of 24), but that doesn't nearly make up for the fact that he had 47 fewer total bases in 77 more plate appearances.
Posted by: nixa37 | December 17, 2008 at 06:43 PM
"Maybe it was more a function of you being in a horrible division than you actually being a good team"
hahahahaha that is absolutley hilarious coming from a dodger fan, hey incase u didnt know u guys won the west by default last year cus no one else was any good. They should have sent the mets to the playoffs last year in your place.
Posted by: chipperowns10 | December 17, 2008 at 06:43 PM
I said dominant in our division, not dominant in all of baseball. So yes division titles are what make you dominant in your division.
Dodgers got their SS they were looking for. As previously pointed out neither team is near complete. The depth charts will be completely different by opening day so talking about this is useless right now.
Best of luck to both the Braves and the Dodgers next season, whether my team wins or another I just want to see some good baseball played.
Posted by: OffJohn'sRocker | December 17, 2008 at 06:43 PM
chipperowns10. Sorry if I didn't make that clear, but I was saying Billingsley is a year further on than Jurrjens and Kershaw a year further on than Hanson.
Posted by: NickC | December 17, 2008 at 06:44 PM
i bet the braves pursue manny ramirez now with a 3 year $72 Mil offer and a 5 year $80 Mil for oliver perez
Posted by: da510nica | December 17, 2008 at 06:45 PM
"but that doesn't nearly make up for the fact that he had 47 fewer total bases in 77 more plate appearances."
This is a very telling and undisputable fact imo, think where mac would be with those extra 77 ab's
Posted by: chipperowns10 | December 17, 2008 at 06:45 PM
I'm happy...Dodgers overpaid for another DL candidate and the Braves got screwed. Now it seems to me ATL is having a little bad luck...looks like a pattern with Wren.
Posted by: padrefuture | December 17, 2008 at 06:46 PM
"chipperowns10. Sorry if I didn't make that clear, but I was saying Billingsley is a year further on than Jurrjens and Kershaw a year further on than Hanson."
srry must have misread it that sounds more online.
And for the person that said the braves will now pursue manny.... highly highly doubt it. Burrell and perez or sheets is much more likley.
Posted by: chipperowns10 | December 17, 2008 at 06:49 PM
"McCann has .130 SLG over Martin and Marton has a net of 7 steals over McCann. Hardly a contest, is it?"
What??? McCann had an .896 OPS last year while Martin only had a .781 OPS. But in 2007 McCann was at .772, while Martin was .843. And Martin doesn't have a "net of 7 steals" over McCann. Martin has stolen 39 bases over the past two seasons while McCann stole 5. So over the past two years, I'd say they're pretty even. Martin gets on base more often and can steal bases. McCann has more power. If anything, I'd say there's more room for Martin to develop power than for McCann to learn to get on base more often.
You talk about 2006 being McCann's aberration. I'd say that 2008 was Martin's power aberration. He played WAY too many games. Give the kid a few days off and his power will return.
Posted by: DodgersBruin | December 17, 2008 at 06:50 PM
DodgersBruin,
If you're going to bash the 14 straight, you may as well get the numbers right.
Braves vs. Dodgers '91-'05
83-62
Posted by: Smoltz's Beard | December 17, 2008 at 06:51 PM
If he had signed he would be a Brave. He didn't....he isn't.
Wah, wah, wah....
Get over it. Anyone really paying attention to Furcal's offseason would know he really wanted to return to LA.
Posted by: dgrfns | December 17, 2008 at 06:53 PM
I felt sorry for the Braves fans when they were going after Burnett. Now you guys want your GM to pursue Oliver Perez??? Do you WANT horrible players on your roster? Good luck winning with that pitching staff if it includes Perez. Even if you signed him for $2M a year he's worthless. Career 96 ERA+.
Posted by: DodgersBruin | December 17, 2008 at 06:53 PM
Both ATL and LA will be avg teams so I dont know what ye'all are so giddy about.
Posted by: padrefuture | December 17, 2008 at 06:53 PM
Dodgersbruin if u polled say 20 ml baseball gms how many do u think would choose martin and how many do u think would choose mac?? i know this proves nothing but im jus curious...
Posted by: chipperowns10 | December 17, 2008 at 06:53 PM
DodgersBruin...right, because whoever heard of a player getting better plate discipline throughout his years in the majors? McCann certainly is screwed.
Do you read what you type before you hit post?
Posted by: Smoltz's Beard | December 17, 2008 at 06:54 PM
"DodgersBruin...right, because whoever heard of a player getting better plate discipline throughout his years in the majors? McCann certainly is screwed."
Haha thankyou. Not to mention mac has lost over 20 pounds this offseason looking to improve his defensive skills and his baserunning. Mac is better than martin period, not saying anything bad about martin but mac is the 2nd best catcher in baseball behind mauer.
Posted by: chipperowns10 | December 17, 2008 at 06:57 PM
Chipperowns10...just don't listen to him, he obviously has no clue what he's talking about. Last season, Baseball Prospectus came out with a list of the top-100 players in the game that if you were starting a team from scratch you would build the team around them. McCann was #11. Martin was #26.
Posted by: Smoltz's Beard | December 17, 2008 at 06:57 PM
Funny how ATL fans thought they had SD by the balls in the Peavy negotiations. And that OK we'll just sign Burnett. Never had a chance.
Posted by: padrefuture | December 17, 2008 at 06:58 PM
I'd say it'd be about 10 each. Martin gets on base more often and can develop power. McCann is left handed. .806 career OPS to .859 career OPS. Both are young. Martin walks more than McCann. Martin also can bat anywhere in the lineup. Add in Martin's ability to steal bases, and I'd say it comes out about even. If you have a right handed heavy lineup, you'd take McCann. If you need power, you'd take McCann. If you needed someone durable who plays everyday, you take Martin. If you need someone who gets on base and can bat in the #2 hole, you take Martin.
Posted by: DodgersBruin | December 17, 2008 at 06:58 PM
I think this signing is BIG. The Dodgers are proving to Manny they are going to compete this year and winning is appealing. Manny will probably be the next person to decide on the Dodgers.
Casey Blake signed, Furcal signed, and next will be Manny.
If the Dodgers can trade Pierre and Jones bounces back the Dodgers will be amazing. Manny AND Andruw Jones in the heart of that order would be ridiculous.
Posted by: Tough | December 17, 2008 at 06:59 PM
ATLs wonder years are over. Wren will drive this team into the ground.
Posted by: padrefuture | December 17, 2008 at 06:59 PM
http://www.beyondtheboxscore.com/2008/10/28/648315/best-catchers-of-2008
hey dodgerbruin check that site out...
Posted by: chipperowns10 | December 17, 2008 at 07:00 PM
funny how Towers has proven to be a useless GM. Can't move one of the best pitchers in the majors who is on a team that is cutting payroll.
Could he be given an easier task?
Posted by: OffJohn'sRocker | December 17, 2008 at 07:01 PM
Oh, and seriously, having a go at the 14 year streak?
We averaged 97 wins per season during that streak. The Dodgers haven't had that many wins in one season since 1977. Hardly due to a weak division, was it?
Posted by: NickC | December 17, 2008 at 07:02 PM
LOL...LAD fans are just as funny to listen too. Manny is not going to LA. Let me repeat that. Manny is not going to LA. Once Tex signs we'll know where but if Tex goes to BOS I can assure you Manny goes to NYY. And let me assure you...LA will be a joke without Manny. Just like they've been the previous 20 years with their top payrolls and all.
Posted by: padrefuture | December 17, 2008 at 07:03 PM
dodgersbruins do u really want ur catcher playing everyday?? especially if hes goinf to be one of ur franchise players?? Mac has been able to play on a very consistent basis so the whole playing everyday argument isnt very valid. Sure there are some teams that would need martins def and base running skills over macs abilities at the plate. Thats y i think it would be around 14 mac and 6 for martin...
Posted by: chipperowns10 | December 17, 2008 at 07:03 PM
chipperstown,
BTW I did read the comments. I'm just wondering where did I say that I totally agree with everyone of the dodger fans posting here. I'm tryin to look at the situation with a little logic and reason. Also, it does matter what happed in 06 and 07 because the dodgers were right in the thick of things without any huge names and relying on their pitching and farm system like they always have.
So chipperstown why dont you try to argue against my points rather than pointing your finger at what everyone else is saying? Scared?
Posted by: cutmeibleedblue | December 17, 2008 at 07:04 PM
Padrefuture,
Wren's actually made a few very nice moves so far in his tenure as GM. Where you going to actually post anything to back up your statement, or were you just gonna throw some mud and then run off back into your corner?
Posted by: Smoltz's Beard | December 17, 2008 at 07:04 PM
"http://www.beyondtheboxscore.com/2008/10/28/648315/best-catchers-of-2008
hey dodgerbruin check that site out..."
Yes, I know that McCann had a better 2008 than Martin. But Martin had a better 2007. Give the kid a day off now and again and there's no reason not to think his power numbers won't be between .460-.500.
Either way, I don't think it matters which one is better. The difference between the two is minuscule. It's a smaller difference between Martin/McCann than the difference between Loney/ Kotchman.
Posted by: DodgersBruin | December 17, 2008 at 07:04 PM
Also doesnt martin have a porr attitude, and isnt liked very mucg in the clubhouse. Werent there rumors of him possibly being on the trading block because his bad attitude?? While mac has one of the best attitudes and work ethics in the game??
Posted by: chipperowns10 | December 17, 2008 at 07:06 PM
It's really unfair to compare Martin and McCann even though they play the same position they are totally different players. Martin relies on his athleticism, good eye, and contact hits, while McCann depends on raw power. They are both great and I would be happy to have either on my team.
Posted by: cutmeibleedblue | December 17, 2008 at 07:07 PM
Martin is a year older. His best OPS+ year is 113.
McCann has already put up two years far in excess of that with 143 in 2006 and 134 in 2008.
Seriously, how do you not get this?
Posted by: NickC | December 17, 2008 at 07:08 PM
chipperstown,
wrong again, do you actually read or do you just make this stuff up? martin is the leader of our team and a great presence in the clubhouse. Thats another advantage of having a young nucleus of players they all come up together and work well together. Try again!
Posted by: cutmeibleedblue | December 17, 2008 at 07:09 PM
OffJohn'sRocker...are you serious? LOL Peavy has a no trade clause. That means limited options and limited options means no bidding competition. Not an easy task at all. In fact, SD proved they didnt have to trade Peavy by not accepting offers. Someone will pay...someone will pay when they're desparate for an ACE. Wren on the other hand has not done too well. Failing to sign multiple FAs, and failing to make a deal that would have put ATL on the map again.
Posted by: padrefuture | December 17, 2008 at 07:09 PM
Where is the link that states that the Braves were considering moving Furcal to 2b?? These kinda details are the ones that should not be rumored about much less made publicly by the pursuing organization. I'm curious to see if this 2b thing is a poor excuse by another crooked agent.
Posted by: BraveNewWorld | December 17, 2008 at 07:09 PM
ya loney is better than kotch, whats ur point who said he wasnt?? Chipper is better than blake and dewitt combined and hell esco is jus as good as furcal and not injury prone and cheaper o and hey kelly is better than any options u have a 2nd and then ur whole outfield is currently better than ours. I dont get ur argument. Ya the dodgers were better than the braves last year but not by much. If the braves would have been in the nl west i think they would have contended up till the last weeks of sept. Not to mention if smoltz and huddy were healthy they would have run away with the west. Also the braves did win the season series between the two..
Posted by: chipperowns10 | December 17, 2008 at 07:10 PM
Mac's frame (whether he lost 20 pounds or not) does not reflect his "work ethic"
Posted by: cutmeibleedblue | December 17, 2008 at 07:10 PM
Okay... the Braves won 14 division titles in a row. They averaged 97 wins a season. How many World Series did they win in that stretch? 1. How many have they won in their history? 3.
Seems to me that the only thing that matters is World Series titles. I'd say in that regard, over the past 20 years both the Dodgers and Braves have failed. 1 title for each. Getting to the playoffs is nice and all, but if you can't win it all, what's the difference between getting there and not?
Posted by: DodgersBruin | December 17, 2008 at 07:11 PM
wow i didnt realize that good old Frenchy is better than either and kemp. Can I see some numbers to support that claim? BTW chipperstown there sure are alot of ifs in that comment (coulda shoulda woulda)
Posted by: cutmeibleedblue | December 17, 2008 at 07:12 PM
Smoltz's Beard...what are these nice trades? Did he get Burnett, how about Furcal, how about Peavy? Sounds fishy to me...
Posted by: padrefuture | December 17, 2008 at 07:13 PM
cutmeblue yes i did read that on multiple sites. Im actually almost positive that the site u are currently posting on was one site to report that. The link i posted above also notes his attitude may have outworn his welcome.
"Evidently Martin has worn out his welcome in the Dodgers' clubhouse." not me saying that, not saying it is true but those were the reports so actually it looks like ur theone who doesnt know what ur talking about again =]
Posted by: chipperowns10 | December 17, 2008 at 07:14 PM
DodgersBruin,
Martin has one season in the majors and minors where he had a .440 SLG or more...why the hell would you think he can get it up to .500 SLG?
Posted by: Smoltz's Beard | December 17, 2008 at 07:14 PM
"Ya the dodgers were better than the braves last year but not by much."
The Dodgers won because of their pitching staff. The Dodgers pitching staff was MUCH better than the Braves last year. 3.68 ERA vs. 4.46 ERA. That is a MASSIVE difference. But keep trying to say the difference between the two teams wasn't much. The difference OFFENSIVELY wasn't much. But the Dodgers pitching staff put the Braves to shame.
Posted by: DodgersBruin | December 17, 2008 at 07:14 PM
Wow Padrefan, stfu. All you are doing is Shi* talking other people's teams, when your team is a joke more than any team in baseball beside the Nationals.
Posted by: Ivdown | December 17, 2008 at 07:18 PM
Padrefuture,
Does your mental capacity go back further than what has happened this offseason? Because I'm not going to waste my time bringing up trades from last season if it doesn't.
Posted by: Smoltz's Beard | December 17, 2008 at 07:19 PM
do i see a braves dodgers rivalry
lol
Posted by: beastOftheEast | December 17, 2008 at 07:19 PM
Smoltz's Beard,
It's well established that the last thing a player develops in his game tends to be power. As a player grows older, his power develops.
Posted by: DodgersBruin | December 17, 2008 at 07:19 PM