Furcal Signs With Dodgers

I really doubt joe torre would stop the dodgers from winning. Especially because they got to the NLCS with him last year. Unless you just mean winning the world series, then you might be right. He has 2 years left (i think), and 2 teams will win world series in those years, so at least 14/15th of the teams in the MLB will be failures in that case.

Why does everyone have to argue about pointless stuff?

If you've got something good to talk about than fine, but I don't understand why every thread or article has to have a bunch of people arguing back and forth about stuff that really has nothing to do with that thread or article.

Oh yeah and by the way Braves fans, everyone in baseball definitely agrees with you that McCann is better which is why this year in the All-Star game Hurdle put in Martin for nine innings duing the most important part of the game and then when he got tired, McCann got one. Also, I heard McCann can play a mean third base. Oh, sorry, that's Russ again.

Posted by: HollywoodHitmen | December 17, 2008 at 08:39 PM

this could quite possibly be the dumbest post I've ever seen

Look DodgersBruin, your Dodgers have good prospects and young MLB players. no sensible braves fan is refuting that, we have just been, or at least i have, started in this comparison of the two because some idiot dodger fans, just one or two specifically not the fan base, got on here talking about how bad the braves are and how we wouldn't be competing for years to come while the dodgers were amazing. the fact is both teams are pretty similar, a majority of the talent is too young to produce a championship team now but these two if all works out should be battling for the chance to represent the National League in the World Series in the near future.

Die-Hard Dodger Fan,

I wasn't trying to argue about who is the better "all-around" catcher. I was simply trying to argue about who is the better (i.e. move valuable) catcher. As I mentioned, the notion that Martin is better had handling a staff is pure conjecture on your part. I also addressed the fact that Martin is slightly better defensively (though McCann is = or within 1 in PB every year and allows fewer WP) and at throwing out baserunners, but the difference between the two in those skills is only ~2 runs a year.

http://www.beyondtheboxscore.com/2008/10/28/648315/best-catchers-of-2008

And yes Martin is a little better at getting on base. No one has debated you on that one. What I said was McCann's massive advantage in slugging more than makes up for the 10-15 point OBP advantage Martin has and the marginal difference in their defense. Numbers back me up on this one...

http://www.beyondtheboxscore.com/2008/10/28/648315/best-catchers-of-2008

I think the comparison between the Dodgers and Braves runs into murky water.
First, the NL West seems to be filled with teams that are going through rough times for the next 2 years.
The D'backs aren't adding salary, but have a stacked team in young players and stud pitching. The Padres are dead because their owner has to sell the team. The Giants have minimal talent. The Rockies are re-tooling.
This leaves the Dodgers as the front runners for the playoffs.

The Braves have to fight through the Phillies and Mets, who have more MLB talent and money than the Braves right now.

The Dodgers aren't an awesome team. They just have an easier road to get to the playoffs. And as the 2006 Cardinals showed, once you're in, anyone can win. The Braves are going to have to fight much harder, and with less room for error when it comes to injuries than the Dodgers have. 85 wins may win the NL West for the next 3 years. It may take 95 to with the NL East.

Die-Hard Dodger Fan,

No it wasn't the same deal. Its either worth the same through the first 3 years with a bigger vesting option or worth 1 million more a year for the first 3 with the same vesting option. The Dodgers also give Furcal the opportunity to play SS. I think the difference in playing in Atlanta or LA was marginal at best. Furcal did "take" the Braves offer until his agent provided him with a slightly more valuable offer to play SS instead of 2B. Furcal wasn't asking his agent to do this, this is just his agent doing his job.

People don't seem to understand that players are generally far less involved with negotiations than you realize. Though he's not a player, Nick Saban is an excellent example of this. He wasn't lying when he said he wasn't even considering the Bama job while coaching the Dolphins. He told his agent he wasn't interested, but his agent knew he would probably feel differently after the NFL season was over, so he negotiated an offer and then sold Nick on it. That's basically what happened here. Furcal was happy with the Braves offer, but Kinzer showed him he could get a slightly better deal and not have to switch positions and he managed to sell Furcal on that idea. Honestly, it probably makes more sense for Furcal.

I was calling this last week. Furcal has wanted to re-sign with the Dodgers from the start and the Dodgers' interest was mutual. The Dodgers used the other teams to ratchet down Furcal's annual dollar value, while Furcal used the other teams to get more years and guarantees (the vesting option) out of the Dodgers. In the end, the Dodgers get an absoultely massive discount on Furcal (he is making half of what he made in 2008 in 2009 and doesn't hit his annual value until 2011). All this, and the Dodgers suddenly "found" $6 million more to pay Manny.

"And yes Martin is a little better at getting on base. No one has debated you on that one. What I said was McCann's massive advantage in slugging more than makes up for the 10-15 point OBP advantage Martin has and the marginal difference in their defense. Numbers back me up on this one..."

Martin had an off year while being mis-used, while McCann had the best year of his year, with 2/3rd of a year with Tex as protection and a full year of Chipper flirting with .400. It is really hard to say McCann is better. While I prefer Martin both for his game as well his team, I think we can all be safe saying that, as far as catchers go, there is Martin, Mauer and McCann, and then everyone else.

I can't lie. i am a little let down by raffy going back to the dodgers. I am a Braves fan since i could crap in my pants and watch dale murphy chase fly balls. I was happy to hear raffy coming back and that the braves were finally doing something. Wren is sneaky and we wont know anything till it happens. All we can do is just sit back and wait.

It seems like every 4-5 days there is something new going on with the braves so i guess i'll wake up sunday or monday to a new "Braves in the lead for . . . . "

Watch... Thursday morning we all will wake up and see that Furcal decided to sign with the Twinkies for 4/45.

AA do you get the concept of protection? It's the guy that hits behind you in the lineup. Tex was Chipper's "protection" not mccann's. How was Martin being misused?

"I think we can all be safe saying that, as far as catchers go, there is Martin, Mauer and McCann, and then everyone else."

lol, no. Martin is not close to Mauer or McCann...and don't forget Soto...

Furcal can go and kiss some dodger blue's ____. And the dodgers making the Playoffs with out Manny? PLEASE!!! Only if Furcal hits 30 or more Homeruns and drives in 100 or more RBI's which will never happen. Kinzer is not a true man. last time I check a man is one that keeps his word.

"I think we can all be safe saying that, as far as catchers go, there is Martin, Mauer and McCann, and then everyone else."

lol, no. Martin is not close to Mauer or McCann...and don't forget Soto...

Posted by: iamnobody | December 17, 2008 at 09:31 PM

No, you thinking this is just dumb. He is one of the 5 best hitting catchers in baseball, he is one of the few best fielding catchers, he steals a bunch of bases, and he handles the pitching staff like a long time veteran.

He is most definitely a top 5 catcher in baseball, and can be top 3 pretty easily.

Give soto at least another year before you put him in the top class of catchers.

slammer

You are pretty smart dude. So who will overtake the Dodgers for the West? The Giants? Still not good enough even with improving this offseason. The Rockies? Not without Holliday, and maybe not even with Holliday for 09. The Padres? Nope.

Arizona is the only team that can really contend, and they do have a good young team with a lot of potential, but their offense is too terrible to really compete.

nixa37,

FWIW, Braves GM Frank Wren told Atlanta sports radio host Bill Shanks that Kinzer told him that Furcal was happy to play 2B if he came back to 2B. Wren's exact words were,"He (Raffy) told us he would gladly do that(play 2B) to come back here (Atlanta)."
I know because I heard the exact interview online.

It really sounds like Kinzer was fishing for an offer from the Braves to leverage against the Dodgers' original offer.

Yes, the option year is for $2 mill higher BUT Raffy also backloaded the deal and even allowed $3 mill to be deferred as a "bonus" at the end of the contract. So he made a lot of concessions in terms of structuring the deal to make it pretty financially appeasing for the Dodgers.

Unfortunately for Wren and the Braves, it sure looks like Kinzer used the Braves to get Raffy the 3rd guaranteed year. The Dodgers saw that it wouldn't take 4 guaranteed years like they thought (since Raffy ruled out the A's) and Kinzer probably told the Dodgers that they only had to match the Braves' offer, not the A's offer, to get Raffy.

The Dodgers then conceded the 3rd guaranteed year to get it done.

"Iamnobody

Soto has had one year, and to say he is better than Martin after 3 years of very impressive play is laughable."

Did I say that Soto is better than Martin? I don't believe I did. Given the numbers Soto put up in 2008, however, which were comparable to Martin's, I do think he belongs in the same conversation.

Guys all the Guy allbraves have to do is trade yunel with huge package with frency and have jake peavy.
Then trade hanson, two prospects and brian mccannfor hanley ramirez

I cant imagine McCann stealing bases on the regular nixa. just seeing when he did a belly flop into that triple he hit earlier in the year was hilarious enough. i dont think fans would be able to handle him belly flopping 20 times a year lol

would be funny though

iamnobody, you can't go by stats 100% of the time. Mauer is supported by stats as the best, McCann the second. Not disputing that. However i think Soto played above his head last year and started to level off at points, probably more consistent with his true value, whereas Martin's true value is probably closer to his better seasons rather than last year. and the point of saying im a braves fan and still thought martin is close to mac was to do this as unbiased as possible

"iamnobody, you can't go by stats 100% of the time."

Of course you can, what else is there to go by? Subjective observations? "Gut feeling"? lol

I figured you were joking it still was kinda funny to think about.

i hope with that new frame he has that he will climb some ladders in the DEF side of his playing

sorry meant to say last year's stats. my bad

I'd say Martinez is forgotten more because he's likely done with C at this point, and he's unlikely to touch the 120's in OPS+ anymore. I think all the young guys have passed him at this point.

It's just hard to believe that a kid who seemingly, as im looking at his minor league stats right now, has struggled hitting the ball outside of two years 07+08 will continue at his pace. Im not saying its a fluke, im saying i think he over performed and his stats though excellent for a catcher will not be as good next year. Of course i could be completely off and he has put his game together finally and this is his new norm

"It's just hard to believe that a kid who seemingly, as im looking at his minor league stats right now, has struggled hitting the ball outside of two years 07+08 will continue at his pace. Im not saying its a fluke, im saying i think he over performed and his stats though excellent for a catcher will not be as good next year. Of course i could be completely off and he has put his game together finally and this is his new norm"

So, in other words, you have no real evidence that he over-performed? Well, both Marcel and Bill James projections indicate that he will hit better than Martin next season, too...

"Stats are important, but you have to watch guys play the game, day in and day out."

Well, no, you don't.

Hey Ivdown, I know more about baseball in general than you will ever know. All I'm saying is people get all carried away with stats.

Who gives a crap about any of this anyway. The Braves need to go after Lowe and/or Sheets, I don't see any other options, unless they want to basically concede '09 and concetrate on'10.

Hey Ivdown, I know more about baseball in general than you will ever know. All I'm saying is people get all carried away with stats.

Posted by: njbraves | December 17, 2008 at 10:37 PM

L...M...A...O...

Wow, talk about a stupid statement.

I didn't realize I was talking to Joe Torre, or Tony Larussa, or Bobby Cox, or Walter Alston, or Tommy Lasorda, or Earl Weaver. So which is it?

Or should I just call you Joe Buck?

Looks a lot sketchier now. The same deal with a slightly more valuable vesting option. It would be amusing to check the records when it goes public and see if they just crossed out the atl front office names and wrote their own in.

"Hey Ivdown, I know more about baseball in general than you will ever know. All I'm saying is people get all carried away with stats."

Posted by: njbraves | December 17, 2008 at 10:37 PM

well thats just stupid..

I didn't even know Furcal signed until now..

Gotta love a foot of snow in beautiful Southern California

To compare McCann and Martin is a moot point..

But saying the Dodgers infield isn't anywhere close the Braves?

Loney right now is what Casey Kotchman can turn into..

Blake Dewitt threw up a .264/.343/.383 9 homeruns and 52 rbis in 368 abs.. never played above AA, learned to play second base during the season, played very well by the way.. So if he had a full season theres a good chance he matches Kelly Johnson's production.

Furcal is better than Escobar hands down, even with DL stints.

And yes Chipper Jones is one the best hitters my generation and Blake wouldnt even be able to hold his jock..

Martin and McCann are a wash..
Atl fans like his power..
I like Martins Defense, Walk rate, baserunning and his ability to handle the staff.

So the only big difference is third base..

And if we resign MannyWood..
Please

"Hey Ivdown, I know more about baseball in general than you will ever know. All I'm saying is people get all carried away with stats."

Gotta love those people who claim, I know more than you but don't really have much to say. C'on man at least try, you're gettin bashed pretty bad. Besides, pffft stats are totally overrated, they only tell you anything you could ever want to know about anything. Get a life and stop lowering the IQ of this conversation njbraves!

"Nothing wrong with being a teen, because I just happen to be one, but there could be no full grown adult as immature as you seem."

Let us hope Ivdown, this guy is a total joke and is just trying to get a rise out of all of us.

"Furcal is better than Escobar hands down, even with DL stints."

That's why the Braves were going to move him to 2b, right?

An all things equal comparison, I can see an argument for Furcal being better. He is a SIGNIFICANTLY better baserunner, and hits for more power. Yunel has more OBP and better defensive skills. But to say he's better when factoring in injuries couldn't be further from the truth.

In other news, I wouldn't want to be next to Paul Kinzer in a lightning storm.

well, you've mastered hyperbole, 661dodgerblue, I'll give you that.

My problem isn't as much with Furcal as it is with Kinzer. I know it's ultimately the player's choice where he signs, but from all accounts, braves-side & neutral-side, this whole ordeal was bush league.

That said, KJ isn't the answer to our OF's offensive woes. His .280/.350/.450-type line is great at 2b, but you need better than that from a corner OF (looking at you Francoeur)

furcal has always been overrates, now he can field anymore and is broken down. this offseason has been crazy. bring up a minor league prospect and you will get the same production and better fielding wo spending an obsene amount of money

"furcal has always been overrates, now he can field anymore and is broken down. this offseason has been crazy. bring up a minor league prospect and you will get the same production and better fielding wo spending an obsene amount of money"..

what the hell are you talking about?

"The only problem with Bradley and Burrell in the OF is the DEF."

Valid point and i thought about that but at this point were ganna have to sacrafice something to get something. With that line up and rotation compared to the other posibilities so far i would take the poor def.

"furcal has always been overrates, now he can field anymore and is broken down. this offseason has been crazy. bring up a minor league prospect and you will get the same production and better fielding wo spending an obsene amount of money"

Were u drunk when u posted this?? i hope so.....

I rethought what I said after taking a look at his baseball-referene.com page. But what i was really talking about, more than a prediction for this year, was i think thats what he would have ended up at in 08 had he remained healthy all year.

I still think he is capable of the line i put up, but that would be on the high end, and its more realistic for .290/.360/.425, which i still think is fine for a leadoff guy.

On my post above I meant to say furcal is a better baserunner not defender...

watch out for him in diamond plays(espn) garrantee!!

now they need to sign oliver perez to be a number 2 or 1 for the dodgers.

the mets would recieve the 16th pick of the first round and then a pick between the 1st and 2nd rounds.

"now they need to sign oliver perez to be a number 2 or 1 for the dodgers."

Perez wouldn't be higher than a #4 for the Dodgers as their pitching staff currently stands. And the chance the Dodgers give up the #16 pick for Perez i highly doubtful.

Let that bozo Furcal go - he'll be hurt by May Braves show class

"oliver perez is better than chad and clayton."

2008 ERA+
Oliver Perez: 100
Chad Billingsley: 135
Clayton Kershaw: 100

Perez is horrible. He's had seasons with ERA+ of 73, 72, 67. He's not worth a 1st round draft pick. Let alone a salary over $4M.

Stop yer dreamin'. Dodgers will not sign Manny. It doesn't fit in with McCourt's small money approach to his big market team. He and the old lady are gonna keep focusing on throwing pennies into the community in order to build their own imagined philanthropic legend. And just when they think everyone has fallen in love with their wonderfulness, they'll build the condos/hotels/shopping center in the parking lots over downtown...which was the whole reason they bought the team from Murdock.

"

manny is going to the yankees

oliver perez is better than chad and clayton.

if the dodgers sign oliver perez( the 16th pick goesthe the mets because he is a type A and they get a pick in the mid rounds) the dodgers would get him for 3 years 12 mill

Posted by: beastOftheEast | December 20, 2008 at 08:00 AM
"

Dude, get a clue. Kershaw and Bills were better than Perez in highschool. Maybe not but you get the point.

I can't believe you actually posted that. Did you giggle while hitting Post?