Heyman On Street, Indians, Pedro, Davis

"Huston Street alone is worth more on the trade market than Matt Holliday."

I call BS.

"One executive says the Royals are "pushing" Brian Bannister as a trade candidate. However, they're reluctant to deal Gil Meche and Joakim Soria."

The Brian Bannister who is 6-6 with a 3.87 ERA after going 9-16, 5.87 in 2008?

Obviously they'd be pushing him, it's a clear sell high.

"Oakland acquires Yunel Escobar and a mid-tier

Cleveland acquires 1 top prospect from Oakland and mid-tier from Atlanta

Atlanta acquires Jhonny Peralta and Matt Holliday"

How about this:

Oakland gets Escobar and Brandon Hicks
Atlanta gets Holliday and Peralta
Cleveland gets Cole Rohrbrough and Henry Rodriguez

Thoughts? I'm not really sure which team doesn't make that deal.

sorry, with 20hr 75rbi.

"Oakland gets Escobar and Brandon Hicks
Atlanta gets Holliday and Peralta
Cleveland gets Cole Rohrbrough and Henry Rodriguez

Thoughts? I'm not really sure which team doesn't make that deal."

Braves don't make that deal IMO.

That deal is lopsided towards the A's.

Now, I'd think that if Brandon Hicks was taken out of the deal, with the A's only getting Escobar (and both A's and Indians chip in cash since Braves can't add payroll), it might be fair for the Braves, but not totally sure.

Escobar is worth Holliday plus a prospect, lets be honest his numbers across the boards are better than Hollidays, he plays a position where often offense is a bonus, and he is cost controled for 4.5 years. I think what scribbletone just said is right on.

Yeah I don't assign a whole lot of value to Hicks, but Rohrbough just has too much upside to move in a deal like that, despite whatever troubles he's having currently. Assuming Oakland and Cleveland were both kicking in some money that deal seems pretty reasonable. I'm still not quite sure its a move I'd like the Braves to make, but its probably something they'd consider.

"And I'd think the Indians would want Simmons more, since their history with "good stuff, meh control" guys like Gio is not good."

Fair enough.

I like it, I think we should write it up and e-mail it to Shapiro, Wren and Beane.

Holliday and Peralta to Atlanta.

Escobar and Hicks to Oakland.

Rodriguez and Simmons to Cleveland.

The Braves get an immediate replacement for Escobar that was actually the best SS in the AL last year, as well as a big bopper to make them immediate contenders in 2009.

The Athletics get big time value for Holliday, landing a long term, high-quality shortstop, as well as another young infielder with pop and upside, something they lack even with the recent additions of Cardenas and Weeks.

The Indians get what they've wanted, which is more pitching, and an interesting duo with the fireballer in Rodriguez and the pitchability guy in Simmons.

It's not easy to come up with a reasonable three-way-trade, but I think we might have one here.

"

Holliday v.s Escobar

Holliday- 29 years old, signed for 1 year 13.5 million. LF

.273/.374/.419/.793 8hr 43rbi 9/12 sb

Escobar- 26 years old, under team control 4.5 years. SS

.295/.355/.433/.788 7hr 42rbi 3/4 sb"

Which is why the Athletics also have to give up two of their better pitching prospects (nice to still hold onto Cahill/Anderson/Mazzaro/Gonzalez/Gallagher/etc.), while receiving only Hicks, a decent but not great prospect, in return.

Although, bravoboy10, just to point it out:

Holliday: 1.7 WAR
Escobar: 1.2 WAR

So far, in 2009, Holliday has still been the more valuable player.

"The Brian Bannister who is 6-6 with a 3.87 ERA after going 9-16, 5.87 in 2008?

Obviously they'd be pushing him, it's a clear sell high.'

You mean the Brian Bannister who had a 5.87 ERA sandwiched between a 3.87 ERA in 07, and a 3.87 ERA in 09?

Not to mention his K/9 is up a whole point from 2007 as well. I'm not going to claim he's setting the world on fire, but you can't just treat him like he's a 5+ era pitcher.

I realize and acknowledge he is the better hitter if you compare them side by side, but if you go by there respective positions and financial situations Escobar has more value in a trade than Holliday.

"I don't see the Brewers trading anything of value for Doug Davis. #1, he is not a difference maker. #2, the Brewers/Melvin traded Davis to AZ a few years ago for Jonny Estrada, yes, it was a poor trade, and a money driven one at that, but this is a factor. No way the Brewers now turn around and pay more for Davis in players after already getting the short end the last time."

Teams do that regularly though, and teams do the reverse as well (pay lots then sell for pennies on the dollar).

The White Sox did that last offseason. They gave up much, much more for Swisher than they got when they dumped him (nothing)

"Not to mention his K/9 is up a whole point from 2007 as well. I'm not going to claim he's setting the world on fire, but you can't just treat him like he's a 5+ era pitcher."

Never said that, just said that it's attempt to sell high on a guy who's not nearly as good as his ERA indicates.

"Peralta, having an off year or not, is still a 1.1 WARP (about even with Escobar) and is controllable the next 2.5 years. Clevelands cupboard is also rather bare when it comes to middle infielders, (tons of OF or corner guys, but almost nothing in the middle) and the prospects mentioned both have some major concerns. Rodriguez is a BP arm with extreme control issues. And I mean like Rich Hill extreme. While James Simmons is rather mediocre across the board with no signs of improvement over the last three years."

The Indians would likely make Asdrubal Cabrera their everyday shortstop, and then Carroll, Valbuena and Barfield could then man second and third. And Carlos Rivero is a pretty good SS in A ball, although he's 3-4 years away.

The idea of the Indians lacking a replacement for Peralta seems like less of a roadblock on the deal than the quality of the pitchers they receive.

I can definitely see how one would consider Simmons/Rodriguez to be a subpar return for Peralta, who as I acknowledged earlier, was the best shortstop in the AL last year.

"The idea of the Indians lacking a replacement for Peralta seems like less of a roadblock on the deal than the quality of the pitchers they receive."

I am not so sure that would be the case. Let us not forget that the team anticipates competing next year. It might be less of a roadblock, but it will still probably be high on their list of problems they don’t want to create. They would have to hit the market looking for at least one of the two positions, and still have a (most likely) inferior player at the other.

Looking at the roster, it looks as if 2010 would see uncertainty with Sizemore off injury, LaPorta still unseasoned and the possibility catcher will be split between struggling Shoppach and rookie Carlos Santana with a hole at third already and an additional hole being created at second because of the trade.

The lack of value received only compounds the above, and for that I would say Cleveland doesn’t entertain such a move. If they fire Shapiro and hire Bavasi maybe, but not unless that happens :)

"Looking at the roster, it looks as if 2010 would see uncertainty with Sizemore off injury, LaPorta still unseasoned and the possibility catcher will be split between struggling Shoppach and rookie Carlos Santana with a hole at third already and an additional hole being created at second because of the trade."

The Indians still have Martinez under contract for 2010, as well as Ryan Garko.

They could try Valbuena at second base and/or resign Jamey Carroll, and the Indians probably don't have the pitching in their organization to contend in 2010 anyways, barring some big moves.

Looking back, you're right, the Indians don't make that move.

But if the Indians do deal Peralta, it would have to be for an MLB ready starter and/or a third baseman.

I don't know why more people aren't concerned about the Indians rotation behind Lee, because no one in that rotation is pitching well outside of him and Pavano, who isn't signed for next season, although Laffey has been decent.

"I don't know why more people aren't concerned about the Indians rotation behind Lee, because no one in that rotation is pitching well outside of him and Pavano"

The Indians are, that is why they are probably (behind the scenes at least) wanting either Bucholz, or Bowden and another of the Sox younger arms in exchange for VMart.

If a Victor deal does get done I think it will look like this

Buccholz or Masterson as the center piece with a couple top prospects not named Bowden or Bard you are only going to get 1 of those pitchers in the deal, they arn't going to deal you 2 of them plus prospects for just Martinez IMO.

I Think if a deal gets done it will look something like this.

Buccholz or Masterson

plus

Felix Doubront ( at AA )

Yamaico Navarro ( Shortstop ready for AA )Great glove and can hit also.

Stephen Fife ( Ready for AA )He is a low to mid 90's guy who has high upside.

I think this is a more realistic trade return for Victor than the rumors we have heard in the past.

"But I do like Cole Rohrbrough and Rodriguez."

You dont want Rodriguez, trust me.

Compare his minor league rates to someone with known horrible control problems like Rich Hill. You can see similar huge walk rates to go with the extreme K rates. In the minors, being all over the place you will have hitters swinging. In the majors, they wont. A 10+ K/9 mark doesnt hold much weight when the BB/9 is over 6 or 7. Look no further then his two high-minors lines to see what I mean.

18.1 IP, 5.9 H/9, 15.2 K/9, and 15 Walks for a 7.4 BB/9 in AAA
41.0 IP, 11.2 H/9, 9.4 K/9, and 44 Walks for a 9.7 BB/9 in AA

That is 59 walks in 59.1 IP to inferior hitters. Really puts the 74 K into question knowing how rarely he crosses the plate with a pitch.

Shoppach shouldn't even be here batting a sub 200 avg he has no value at all back-up catchers are a dime a dozen.

He does have one thing HE HAS 1 OPTION left .

Send his ARSE to the minors and call up Toregas to back -up for now.

Sorry but Victor Martinez is not going anywhere unless the Indians get what they want plus something. The offer would have to blow them away and Shapiro would have to have no doubts in his mind about the deal; which I don't see happening.

Therefore, Martinez is staying in Cleveland and is the face of our franchise.

Ben Francisco, Kelly Shoppach, Ryan Garko, Jamey Carroll, Josh Barfield, Rafael Betancourt, and Carl Pavano are the most likely guys to be dealt before the deadline.

I know Shapiro wants LaPorta everyday in LF, Hafner at DH, and Martinez at 1B as soon as possible. Peralta is our 3B and hopefully Shoppach stays put, if not, next year Santana and Gimenez could be next to get the shot at C.

2,3,4,5,6 will pretty soon be Sizemore, Martinez, Choo, LaPorta, Hafner, Peralta.

GET LAPORTA UP HERE ALREADY.