9:11pm: The Rockies are out on Cantu, according to Rosenthal (via Twitter).
3:49pm: The Giants are "not heavily considering" Cantu, a source told Henry Schulman of the San Francisco Chronicle (Twitter link). The Rockies are still looking at Cantu, according to Jon Heyman of SI.com (Twitter link).
8:25am: The Giants are making a strong run for Marlins corner infielder Jorge Cantu, reports Ken Rosenthal of FOX Sports. They may hold an edge over the Rangers and Rockies, who remain involved. He says the Fish are believed to be seeking a young lefthander. The Giants have been using Travis Ishikawa at first base lately, while third baseman Pablo Sandoval is set to return from personal leave tonight.
In terms of young lefties, the Giants have reliever Dan Runzler on the DL with a knee injury and starter Eric Surkamp at High A. Clayton Tanner and Craig Clark also fit into their Baseball America top 30 prospect list heading into the season. Joe Martinez cracked the list the prior year. The Marlins asked about Tanner during the Winter Meetings, writes Clark Spencer of the Miami Herald.
Yesterday ESPN's Jayson Stark wrote that the Rangers and Marlins' talks for Cantu appeared hung up over dollars. The Rangers want the Marlins to assume all of the $2.22MM remaining on Cantu's contract.
Cantu, by the way, names the Marlins as his first choice when he hits the free agent market (ESPN's Amy K. Nelson via Twitter).
Sabean you tool not eric surkamp give them clayton tanner instead at least cantu is not a aging veteran.
nobody said the giants are considering giving up either one of them. Tim was simply going over the young lefthanders the Giants have in their system
I don’t see the big concern with giving up those players mentioned. Cantu would fit nicely into the Giants line-up and would give them what they need better than anyone else that is in reason (of course Dunn or Fielder would be better, but the Giants don’t want to give up top prospects). Cantu could hit 5th or 6th and play a corner infield position every day. I would be willing to give Ishikawa, Surkamp, and Tanner. That isn’t that big of a hit to our farm when you consider what we have in the majors and in the minors. I say do it. Get Cantu and maybe, just maybe he gives us enough pop and balance throughout the order
Ishikawa, Surkamp, AND Tanner for Cantu? Seems like too much unless the Marlins threw in a reliever or a prospect. Plus Ishikawa has been valuable to the Giants bench as hes been one of the top pinch hitters in the game this year.
like
Jorge Cantu = Not a big upgrade = Not Adam Dunn = Not worth a trade.
Ah, I see. With Posey doing so well, Sabean now feels that he has his icense to be as stupid as he wants to be back.
Stupid like Einstein.
Best rotation in majors, not only now, but for the next 4-6 seasons too. Great closer. Great hitters in Posey and Sandoval. We are all set up to be a dominant team for the next 4-6 seasons, more if they get the money to keep all the young guys together long term.
If anything it is the internet that gives people a license to be as stupid was they want to be.
The Giants have put together an amazing rotation consisting primarily of homegrown pitchers. That is undeniable, and very admirable.
I think it’s debatable as to whether the GM deserves all or even most of the credit for drafting or scouting amateur players, but I’m willing to give Sabean the benefit of the doubt and say that this is an area that he excels in (for pitchers, anyway).
But you have to agree that being a GM is about more than the draft; it’s also about managing the team’s finances smartly and effectively acquiring non-drafted players via trade or free agency. Do you really want me to ask you if an “Einstein” of a general manager signs Barry Zito to 7/126? Aaron Rowand to 5/65? Edgar Renteria to 2/18? Is Freddy Sanchez earning his money? Is Mark DeRosa? Is Bengie? You can say I am criticizing Sabean only for his past but these are all affecting the Giants RIGHT NOW. They are winning because of his draftees, but in spite of his skill as a manager, negotiator, and talent evaluator.
In reference to your other response, the reason other teams offer Sabean stupid trades is because they think he might accept them. It is not a valid argument to say that trades are never a good idea because you have to give up talent in them; this seems to be what you are saying and is very similar to a quote of Sabean’s from before this season. Look around the majors. Look at what the Angels just did to get Haren. The Cardinals to get Holliday. The Red Sox to get Martinez. Etc. etc. etc. I feel like its foolish for me to even point out that TRADES WORK OUT sometimes, anyway, for competent GMs. Sabean seems to have at least recognized his own incompetence in trades, which is why he seems bent on never pursuing a big gamechanging one, and sticking to meek bullshit like Cantu or Podsednik or Guillen or whatever to try to convince the average fan that he’s still doing something.
In short, I have to wholeheartedly disagree with the idea of Sabean being an “Einstein.” And as happy as I am with the rotation and Posey and (I hope) Sandoval, I can’t imagine this team ever winning a World Series with Sabean at the helm.
Yes, it is more than the draft, but the bottom line is whether he is winning with what he has put together. Last I’ve seen, the team has been winning since August 2008, but many people have been missing that. What a shame, it has been a good team to watch.
And as you admit, there are things that a GM has no control over. Zito, most agree, is one of them, that the Giants owner overrode him and ordered him to get it done.
Still, there were the other moves you criticize, but aren’t seeing whole picture. Sanchez, according to Fangraphs is producing at a $5M rate, not far from the $6M he was signed for, and without him, we would not have a secondbaseman, unless you really think Matt Downs is the answer there. Renteria was injured last season, but his play this season, according to Fangraphs, should more than cover his salary for this season, if not beat it by a good margin if he can keep it up.
And to me, right now, him signing Torres and Huff absolves a lot of sins. And that’s the problem, many of you just look at the sins, none of you acknowledge that there has been a lot of good done by Sabean.
The point is whether he has the team situated to win and ultimately to win the World Series. According to Baseball Prospectus research, to maximize your chances of going deep into the playoffs, you need three things: 1) a high K/9 pitching staff (check!), 2) a closer with high WRXL (check!), and 3) a high team fielding per BP metric (check!). Yes, nothing about offense.
That also corroborates with The Hardball Times research which found that it is pitching and fielding – defense – that wins championships, not offense.
Using a business perspective, Sabean has focused his team’s core competencies on the key characteristics that two leading baseball analytics organizations have found to lead to success in the playoffs – pitching and fielding.
And yes, I agree that trades do work sometimes, that is how Sabean got Jeff Kent, Ellis Burks, Robb Nen, Livan, Woody, Schmidt, Winn, JT Snow. Sure, the Angels got Haren, but they gave up their Madison Bumgarner. No thanks. The Cards gave up their Buster Posey to get Holliday, no thanks. If you give up enough prospects, yeah, you can get those top players, but it is no free lunch, you have to give up very good prospects to get them most of the time.
And if one would go through all his trades, I’m sure you will find that the vast majority of them either turn out better for the Giants or basically even, so I’m not even sure why you think his trades are stupid. Sure, some of them didn’t work. Surprise, that happens in life. But if you look over his whole career, you will find that most of them never cost the Giants anything much or that the Giants got a lot more back. Who cares about Garko? Barnes wasn’t that good a prospect anyway. It’s like worrying about the dime Sabean dropped somewhere when he producing $100 during the time you spent worrying about the dime.
And if you think it is so easy to put together a rotation that is THE BEST in the majors, then why hasn’t other teams done the same? Why are the best teams always trading for what the Giants already have, and have 2-3-4 of them in their rotation?
–I’m not really sure how you’re calculating that Sanchez is producing at a $5 million rate, FG has him at $1.8 mil for the season, and obviously we’re past halfway by now. But even so, the FG dollar values have been shown to be a very poor reflection of the real FA market. If non-free agents were not grossly underpaid, the dollars/win calculation would be far lower. So that definitely does not convince me that the Sanchez deal was worth it.
–Ahh, the “Renteria was playing injured” thing. It’s funny how when most teams have a player who is injured, performing in such a way that will lead them to throw up a .250/.307/.328 or so, they shut him down for the season and give him the surgery he needs. But on the Giants, contributing your .283 wOBA for the entire season is simply a sign of what a gamer you are. I can’t fault Renteria for this, but I sure can and will fault the Giants brass for it.
–All of the trades you mentioned, with the exception of Winn, are from an era when almost all the current GMs weren’t GMs yet. No one but Beane had discovered sabermetrics yet. It’s a different time now and Sabean isn’t on the level of most of the GMs anymore, when before he was one of the best, to be sure. Just because he was able to fleece Dave Littlefield doesn’t mean I have confidence for him to make any more smart trades; in fact, we KNOW he hasn’t done so for four years!
–Brett Wallace is good, but he’s not Buster Posey. And comparing Patrick Corbin to Madison Bumgarner? Please. The guy is not even on BA’s top 100. He’s more like their Clayton Tanner than their Bumgarner.
My bad, I calculated him based on 60 games and 100 more to play, but there is only 60 more to play. So take him off the list.
Re: Renteria, at that point, all we knew about Uribe was how horrible he was previously, he was just a bench player. Without Renteria, we didn’t have a SS to start other than Uribe. So they played Renteria, I don’t see how that don’t make any sense.
If Sabean is so disabled by dealing with a new breed of GMs, then at least he has enough sense to not trade or give away anybody worth keeping, which is not something we can say about Beane (Ethier, Nelson Cruz, Carlos Pena, just for a short list). So his trades didn’t work: neither did he give up a Kazmir like the Mets did.
Again, the point should be about where the team is not where you think in a perfect world they should be. Right now they are the Wild Card leader on pace to win 92 games. And it looks like it should get better since this team is nothing like the team even on June 30th, with the key changes being Posey behind the plate and Bumgarner the 5th starter.
I didn’t say that they were the equivalent, but that they were their team’s equivalent to our prospects. And please, I’m talking about Skaggs, not Corbin, he’s had a very good season as a 18 YO in A-ball, not as great as Bumgarner, but that is a very good performance for his age and level.
In my opinion, when I wrote that, we didn’t have anyone close to Wallace or Skaggs other than Posey and Bumgarner, so a deal would not have been possible for the Giants unless they included them. Neal would be next but Wallace is much closer to Posey than Neal, so I think that still works. Wheeler arguably could be considered a better match, so I probably over reached on using Bumgarner, I forgot about Wheeler, but he’s still a much better prospect than Skaggs, given his pedigree, and I would not want to give him up.
And, in any case, Arizona is not dealing Haren to an NL West team anyway.
agreed
agreed
I fracking hate Brian Sabean so fracking much. When was the last time he made a trade that provided the Giants with any kind of positive value whatsoever? Probably Winn. And before that, you’d probably have to go all the way back to Schmidt.
It takes two to tango and if every team hopes to rip off the Giants by asking for Tim Lincecum or Matt Cain (remember Alex Rios?), then I’m glad that Sabean didn’t make any big trades since Winn and Schmidt.
For an example of this, the Nats are asking for Madison Bumgarner to rent Dunn for the rest of the season: no thanks, I’ll pass, Bumgarner is going to be great for us for the next 6 seasons, most likely.
I fracking LOVE Brian Sabean so fracking much. We have the best rotation in the majors now and should only get better over the coming seasons. With an defense like that, we won’t need a strong offense to win with it (see last season) but can win a lot when we have just an average offense (which we have this season). And we have a great closer to boot, another competitive advantage, according to research that Baseball Prospectus did, that would allow the Giants to go deeper into the playoffs.
And I think the past month is a glimpse of what we can hope for when the offense is clicking, obviously Posey won’t hit like this always, but if Sandoval starts hitting like he did previously, which he did right after the break, together they can have a similar offensive result.
I love what Sabean has done with the team, if you want to flog him for past trespasses, you are only throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
What does RHP Joe Martinzez have to do with this?
i really hope we don’t go in this direction… i don’t think we’d give up much for Cantu, but I don’t see the value there anyway. ishikawa has been workable at first, and certainly has better defense than anyone they could bring in. i say the giants need to go big or stay with what they’ve got.
What if they could Cantu and Willingham? I’d be all for that! Cantu is not a huge bat but he’d be a nice piece. Ish would still get a lot of playing time at first.
hahaha
at lease cantu is a good RBI guy but i would want to trade Clayton Tanner is minor league stats look solid. i also heard that cantu plays bad defense
Cantu is horrible at 3rd. I’d put him at first and keep Huff in the outfield. He is a good RBI guy though. Would probably hit 6th behind Pablo.
RBI guy, great! Maybe they could get a guy who scores a lot of runs too! Now Brian, go tell Susan that you’re done using the computer and would like her to turn it off for you and don’t make any trades that don’t involve Willingham!
Cantu is horrible at 3rd. I’d put him at first and keep Huff in the outfield. He is a good RBI guy though. Would probably hit 6th behind Pablo.
Lol is this Brian Sabean? You use his logic. RBI’s are a conditional statistic set by the players that hit before you, they’re meaningless. Jorge Cantu is not worth even the lowest prospects we could give.
I’d disagree that they are “meaningless.” They are influenced by the players hitting before you, but some hitters are also better hitters with runners in scoring position than others…For example in this first half of the season after Pujols and Agon the best three hitters with risp were Ryan Ludwick, Chipper Jones and Elvis Andrus…thats according to this site:unclepopov.wordpress.com/2010/07/14/most-clutch-hi…
BA in RISP is a terrible statistic. Once again that average doesn’t even exist without people out in front of the hitter! It’s a conditional statistic! So is a guy with a .410 wOBA but hits .150 w/RISP less valuable than a guy who hits .260 but .400 in RISP? I’ll take the wOBA guy, honestly.
Intangibles are a good way to recruit a bad team.
So I guess there is no such thing as a clutch hitter according to you…
Lol is this Brian Sabean? You use his logic. RBI’s are a conditional statistic set by the players that hit before you, they’re meaningless. Jorge Cantu is not worth even the lowest prospects we could give.
He has had only 32 RBIs since April…and is OPSing under .700 since April including .538 this month. He’s practically useless.
Be careful, those numbers might frighten and confuse him. OPS? WHAT IS THIS, WITCHCRAFT?
Well he says he is the Giants next GM…maybe he’s Sabean’s son….it would make sense, no?
He has had only 32 RBIs since April…and is OPSing under .700 since April including .538 this month. He’s practically useless.
Scott Podsednik or Jose Guillen are better choices (and that’s not saying much) than Cantu at this point. Why does Sabean have to crap the bed at every deadline? Cantu will be the new Ryan Garko. Freaking useless.
Scott Podsednik or Jose Guillen are better choices (and that’s not saying much) than Cantu at this point. Why does Sabean have to crap the bed at every deadline? Cantu will be the new Ryan Garko. Freaking useless.
I think the Giants see an upside with Jorge Cantu. He has 25 doubles, that is only 7 doubles less than Torres 32 doubles. 54 RBI’s is alot of production, more than Sandoval this year. I can see Cantu hitting well on a winning team. He is only 28 years old and has a good track record with reaching over 90 RBI’s and hitting at least 29 Home runs. I could see him in a Giants uniform if he performs. Maybe the Giants would like to see him as a longterm player? I think Cantu could be an offensive upgrade over Ishikawa… Ishikawa strikes swinging over curveballs alot.
RBIs are not a statistic that should be used in basis of one’s production! When you have Hanley Ramirez and Dan Uggla in front of you, you’re going to get in a position to hit RBI’s. If you’ve got Sandoval GIDP’s and Uribe striking out in front of Cantu, those RBI’s will die even further.
Do NOT compare Cantu to Andres Torres. Torres is at least 3-4 times as valuable as cantu is right now, on offense and defense. Cantu is NOT going to hit 30 HR if his home park is AT&T Park. Florida is a hitter’s park, SF’s isn’t.
Florida is a hitter’s park? what games have you been watching? Neither are hitting parks they favor pitchers heavily.
Uhhh a high wall in left means nothing if it’s only 330 FT to get to it, the distance to right field wall is 20 FEET SHORTER than AT&T’s (345FT to AT&T’s 365). The only real difficult spot is center field, but that doesn’t matter because the Fish have mostly pull hitters. More routine fly balls go out there than AT&T.
Cantu is a waste. Ishikawa is better. In 93 at bats, Ish has 2 HR, 18 RBI, a .312 avg and .808 ops. In 366 at bats, Cantu has 10 HR, 54 RBI, a .260 avg and a .718 ops. Do the math. Multiply Ish’s stats by 4, which would give him 372 at bats, essentially the same as Cantu. He’d have 8 HR, 72 RBI, a .312 avg and an .808 ops. Now I know the 72 RBI is probably unrealistic, but all I am saying is the Ish’s offense is comparable to Cantu. And his defense exceeds Cantu’s. And he’s already on our team and doesn’t cost anything. Cantu would be a waste. With huff able to play first, and Pablo coming back tonight, we need to be looking for an OF bat. And not overpay for it! Dunn is way to flaky to try and his asking price is too much. Posednik could work. Willingham could work. Don’t blow our season Sabean! Huff was a great pickup, how bout one more!
Sample size on Ishikawa isn’t great in all honesty. I’d expect Ishikawa to be somewhere around .260/.750 (OPS) if given a full season worth of at bats. He just has too many holes in his approach/swing. Not saying Cantu is an upgrade whatsoever, but it’s not fair to base Ishikawa’s offensive value this season on a sub 100 AB sample.
My only point was that Cantu isn’t worth it. Ish could match his numbers.
I’d rather go big and trade for Uggla. I heard he can play 3rd.
I’d rather go big and trade for Uggla. I heard he can play 3rd.
This would be another “Garko” attempt. Why does our GM like repeating the same mistakes over and over again.
This would be another “Garko” attempt. Why does our GM like repeating the same mistakes over and over again.
All right, all right… Sorry I said anything about Torres- Cantu- Doubles… Torres is much more superior than Cantu! I would be thrilled if Uggla was a Giant, heck put him at Firstbase!
too bad the marlins are locking him and nolasco up in the off season.
All right, all right… Sorry I said anything about Torres- Cantu- Doubles… Torres is much more superior than Cantu! I would be thrilled if Uggla was a Giant, heck put him at Firstbase!
If the Marlins reject the Giants offer, lets hope Willingham is on the table and starting Leftfield for the Giants this2nd half. Scott Podesednik, he could be a great guy to have since he is base steal guy and has a .309 BA. Rightfield could be open. Then put Aurbey Huff back at Firstbase.
If the Marlins reject the Giants offer, lets hope Willingham is on the table and starting Leftfield for the Giants this2nd half. Scott Podesednik, he could be a great guy to have since he is base steal guy and has a .309 BA. Rightfield could be open. Then put Aurbey Huff back at Firstbase.
Forget Cantu, he SUCKS & he’s a HACK!!!! What about Adam “FRICKING” Dunn? What about Jayson Werth? What about Adam LaRoche who is having a decent year & IS A 2nd half of the season player!!! What about Lance Berkman, even though he’s not having a good year. A change in scenery might do him good!!!! The Giants are right in the thick of a pennant race & they seem like they don’t give a SH*T, which is ridiculous & embarrassing, especially to the fans that have been supporting the team for years & years!!!!
What about the Nats asking for Madison Bumgarner for Dunn? You willing to do that?
The Giants do give a darn. If they didn’t, they wouldn’t have assembled one of the best, if not the best now that Bumgarner is here, starting rotation in the majors, and added Posey to the mix as well, offensively. If they didn’t give a darn, they would not be on a pace for 92 wins right now. If they didn’t give a darn, they wouldn’t have traded Molina so that Posey could start, plus got a reliever and nice prospect in return, heck, they wouldn’t have even signed Molina to a contract period, if they didn’t care.
More importantly, if they didn’t give a darn, they would have traded away Lincecum, Cain, Sanchez, Sandoval, Posey, Bumgarner when fans were crying out for the Giants to trade them away in short sighted effort to rebuild the offense, but which would only have short circuited the Giants young movement and ability to field a playoff and World Series competitive team for the next 4-6 seasons.
I’m glad they have identified which players are keepers and thus untradeable, and not do all the trades people suggest, which they never seem to realize that filling in one hole would only open another hole somewhere else.
Also, I think people will see the beauty of having a tip-top rotation from top to bottom in 2011, and with Huff, Posey, Sandoval in the middle, and Torres up top, our lineup will be productive enough to win enough games to win the division title next season.
Are you NUTS? NO, I wouldn’t trade Bumgarner for Dunn!!!! If you really think
that the Giants should do that deal, go & pour yourself another drink & jump off
a cliff!!!! You ABSOLUTELY have no clue about the game of baseball!!!! Instead,
you should be concentrating on how to run (manage) a pencil factory!!!!
I’m sure you will post that the Giants should trade Bumgarner to the A’s for
Eric Chavez!!!!
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I don’t think obsessivegiantscompulsive was saying he would do it either, but that is what it would take. People can knock Dunn all they want but he is basically a lock to score 100 runs, hit 40 HRs, have 100 RBIs, and 100 walks every year. Yeah he probably strikes out a little too much but he also has his average up to .275 this year. Werth is off the market now with Victorino getting injured, so it looks like you are down to LaRoche and Berkman. Those two have a lot lower asking price as well. I’m assuming you think you do have a clue about the game of baseball so what would you offer the Astros or Dbacks?
You are definitely right about Jayson Werth being off the market, due to the
injury to Victorino. As for the trades for Dunn, Berkman & LaRoche here is what
I would offer……….
For Dunn: Schierholtz, Bowker (Bowker: 12 hrs, 31 rbi’s, 302 avg, in only 189
ab’s) & either P, Henry Sosa or Geno Espineli or even both. BOTH P’s have very
good stats. Dunn IS the player that the Giants need!!!
For: Berkman: Bowker & Schierholtz. BOTH are left handed hitters. Berkman is
not having the year that he usually has, due to injuries. Berkman would be a
GOOD fit for the Giants, too!!
For LaRoche: Schierholtz & either P’s Henry Sosa or Geno Espineli. LaRoche is
the weaker of the 3, but still a pretty good player.
Dunn & Berkman are getting up there in age, but they can still perform. I WOULD
NOT give up ANY of my starting pitching staff for them. I DO NOT want to see the
Giants break up their starting staff. Soon (Hopefully), you MIGHT be able to
compare them to the Braves staff when they had the BIG 4 (Maddux, Glavine,
Smoltz & Avery).
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I don’t think obsessivegiantscompulsive was saying he would do it either, but that is what it would take. People can knock Dunn all they want but he is basically a lock to score 100 runs, hit 40 HRs, have 100 RBIs, and 100 walks every year. Yeah he probably strikes out a little too much but he also has his average up to .275 this year. Werth is off the market now with Victorino getting injured, so it looks like you are down to LaRoche and Berkman. Those two have a lot lower asking price as well. I’m assuming you think you do have a clue about the game of baseball so what would you offer the Astros or Dbacks?
inb4 the giants play the dodgers and Geoorge Sherril rumors heat up… Come on guys, Sabean has never made an impact trade in his life.
The Giants just love mediocrity when it comes to hitting.
Most runs this month.. You mad??
LMAO..
Lol hey, I never said mediocre hitters cant hit, lets see if how consistent they are.
Well, it would appear that building around pitching and defense has its merits. It almost got the Gigantes to the post season last year, and only moderate offensive upgrades have made them a contender. The only team in front of them in the division is even more strongly pitching and defense oriented, not less.
WHEW!!!!!!
Fielder or Dunn. Or no one.
Im not ecstatic about this but he’s better than Guillen. But this would mean that Huff is going to stay in rightfield for the rest of the season.
After what Uggla has done to us, I want him on our side!
Offer those packages all day…..just don’t expect a call back.