Odds & Ends: Dunn, Dodgers, Lee, Tigers

Links for Saturday night, after Roy Halladay and Travis Wood traded zeros for nine innings….


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74 Comments on "Odds & Ends: Dunn, Dodgers, Lee, Tigers"


toomanyhatz
5 years 1 month ago

I’m glad they wouldn’t part with Loney, but I really think Billingsley tops out at a #3 starter at best. He’s never gonna be an ace. So particularly if you’re getting an ace in return, why wouldn’t you? I presume it wasn’t a straight up deal, but Billingsley plus prospects? I’d do it in a second.

5 years 1 month ago

Loney is a below average first baseman and Billingsley is an above average starting pitcher. What do we need more: Hitting or pitching?

5 years 1 month ago

Loney is EASILY replaceable, Bills is a #2 at worst with the potential of being a one, remember how long it took Cliff Lee to blossom.

Oh, and Lee’s a rental, will command BIG money, and will be signing in all likelihood with the Yankees this offseason, an offseason in which we wouldn’t even have enough money to make an offer simply as a PR move.

So yeah, no dice.

thegrayrace
5 years 1 month ago

1/2 year control of Lee vs. 2 1/2 years control of Billingsley is a pretty big reason.

quintjs
5 years 1 month ago

I was going the exact opposite – what is the big deal about Loney – he has average written all over him.

toomanyhatz
5 years 1 month ago

I don’t know, a future Gold Glover who’s the most mature of all the Dodgers’ players in their mid-20s who, while he may never be a HR leader is probably good for 20 HR & 90 RBIs on a regular basis? I think he’s got a Steve Garvey, or at very least a Mark Grace-like career in front of him. Billingsley’s got skills, but he’s not emotionally mature enough. Pitchers mature in their 30s sometimes, but I don’t think the Dodgers should be willing to wait when they’re an ace (and maybe one bullpen piece) away from being the top NL team.

5 years 1 month ago

Loney is not a Gold Glover, doesn’t walk enough to be considered a future Mark Grace-like player, and RBIs are an awful way to judge a player.And this emotionally-mature stuff is bullshit, to be blunt.

ThinkBlue10
5 years 1 month ago

honestly you would rather give up loney, our RBI leader, than billingsley our #3 pitcher? you can say whatever you want about loney but this guy has contributed more to this team than billingsley has this year. Oh yeah and billingsley doesnt have the balls to be a #2 or better.

aap212
5 years 1 month ago

Loney is your RBI leader because he bats behind the guys with the best OBPs. This is why RBIs aren’t a valuable measure. Sit down, son, it’s time we had a talk.

ThinkBlue10
5 years 1 month ago

who are you? And actually RBI’s are a pretty good way to measure because not anyone can drive in 90+ RBI’s per year. You gotta be able to hit to get RBI’s.

aap212
5 years 1 month ago

RBI measure opportunity (i.e. men on base in front of you) as much as performance. Loney drove in 90 runs last year while slugging under .400. You really think the RBI are a better measure? Troy Glaus has one less RBI than Loney this year. It’s not because he’s hitting that well. It’s because the Atlanta lineup is stacked with high OBPs in front of him. A good starting pitcher like Billingsley is more valuable and harder to replace than a first baseman who get on base at a merely solid clip and doesn’t slug at all.

thegrayrace
5 years 1 month ago

I agree with you that RBIs are not a good metric for judging a player’s production (as they are team dependent), but batting average w/ RISP is worth bringing into consideration. And, in that category, Loney has been outstanding.

Gumby65
5 years 1 month ago

First you said BA doesn’t mean anything, and now RBI means nothing. Awesome.

5 years 1 month ago

The truth hurts, doesn’t it?

Oh, and just to rub salt in your clearly misplaced wound, Wins are an abomination of a stat (the worst for starting pitchers), ERA is inferior to FIP and tERA, and Saves don’t mean a damn thing when it comes to relievers.

aap212
5 years 1 month ago

Loney’s slugging .431 in his big bounce back year. Simmer down.

markjsunz
5 years 1 month ago

The Dodgers PR department release the same crap each year. They were in contention for a star pitcher but were unwilling to give up either the highly touted minor leaguer, or young talent. Of course what they never tell you is if Seattle was willing to pay Lees salary for the next six weeks and the dodgers could have maybe pocketed some money to boot Seattle would have had there choice of players.No player under contract for the next few years will be moved by the Dodgers it all has to do with the profit and loss statement.The McCourts dumped Santana, and they dumped Bell and pocketed a few bucks. Nor will they pay decent money for a top prospect.It may be time to do what San Diego did trade some of this coming of age talent for some talented prospects.

5 years 1 month ago

Of course what they never tell you is if Seattle was willing to pay Lees salary for the next six weeks and the dodgers could have maybe pocketed some money to boot Seattle would have had there choice of players<—-How do you know this? Lee to the Dodgers was never a fit. They wanted a big league caliber hitter, plus propsects. They were probably willing to settle for Loney if it meant they got Billingsley, which wasn't going to happen. The M's got a great haul from the Rangers, and the M's are only paying PART of Lee's salary. That right there should tell you the Dodgers never had a chance at Lee without givig up a significant part of our big league roster.

markjsunz
5 years 1 month ago

Yeah a great haul? a bunch of minor leaugers and a 1st. round prospect hitting .205. A haul of rubbish maybe?

5 years 1 month ago

Average? A player that was labeled as a potential gold glover and batting champion? A career .332 RISP guy, who has come within 10RBIs of 100 without topping 15 HR’s? Wait until he develops some power. We’d be no where right now without Loney, especially his last 2 months of production.

…and who would you replace Loney with this year btw? You a SP, but leave a gigantic gap in our lineup. Belli-lard? Please.

5 years 1 month ago

LOL.

first off: Loney is 23rd among 25 qualifying first basemen in OPS. Third from the BOTTOM.

Secondly: DeWitt would move to third, Blake would move to first, and Carroll would come in at second. That would be a defensive upgrade at 2nd and 3rd and not much of an offensive downgrade from Loney to Carroll.

5 years 1 month ago

His OPS is .756

5 years 1 month ago

Hey buddy, AVG is the worst way to judge an offensive player. Try OBP, wOBA, WAR.

Gumby65
5 years 1 month ago

I hope you mean batting average. Especially with RISP.

BaseballFanatic0707
5 years 1 month ago

He meant average in terms of home runs, guys. C’mon.

Wait..you didn’t?

Oh well, can’t save you now. Just because a player isn’t a fantasy monster doesn’t make him average. i can name quite a number of reasons why Loney is an above average 1st baseman. Not prototypical, not amazing, but definitely VERY good.

SixtoLezcano
5 years 1 month ago

Actually, Loney is quite average. Below average defense (UZR/150 or TZ), slightly above average hitter (OPS+ or wOBA) which isn’t very good for a 1B, and a perennial 2 WAR player.

He’s also 26 and under team control for another two years. Not remotely comparable to the upside of a player like Smoak/Montero.

ThinkBlue10
5 years 1 month ago

dude, get out of here with your UZR crapp! he is an above average defender. UZR doesn’t mean a thing to me. He is a future gold glover. And i didn’t know 60 RBI’s was average.

BentoBox
5 years 1 month ago

I didn’t know RBI’s mattered.

ThinkBlue10
5 years 1 month ago

last time i checked RBI’s do matter. Thats why they have RBI’s is a real stat unlike that crap stat UZR.

5 years 1 month ago

Says the uneducated fool.

“The earth is flat!”

That’s what I imagine you’d write on a website devoted to exploration of the planet.

ThinkBlue10
5 years 1 month ago

UZR is a stupid stat, sorry thats just my opinion

jwredsox
5 years 1 month ago

I love when fans think they are better at judging fielders than real fielding statistics.

aap212
5 years 1 month ago

UZR is off for first basemen. There are better arguments against Loney.

aap212
5 years 1 month ago

UZR doesn’t work very well for first basemen. I’d leave that out of the argument.

quintjs
5 years 1 month ago

I meant average in the context of nothing amazingly special.

Yea he is a good player, but it wouldn’t stop me dealing him for Cliff Lee.

The gold glove bit was quite amusing, because its probably true knowing how gold gloves are, I would rather a 1B who wasn’t below average on defense, but hey, to each their own.

And as toomanyhatz said, an ace away.. what about Lee this year and either resign him with Manny’s money, or get some top draft picks to restock.

As who I would replace him with, what about Hank Blalock?, not even one of the many 1B available at the deadline.

If any of you want to explain how you would be better with Loney and Padilla, instead of Blalock and Lee – please feel free.

The fact is so far all Loney has been is a 1-2 WAR player. Good, nothing really special.

5 years 1 month ago

The McCourts won’t pay above slot in the draft except in rare occasions, and pretty much intentionally drafted a player (Zach Lee) they knew they couldn’t sign in part because they’re cheap and baseball-broke at the moment.

So yeah, restocking though the draft is not really an option.

5 years 1 month ago

Loney is 23rd among 25 qualifying first basemen in OPS. Third from the BOTTOM.

5 years 1 month ago

My bad-my bookmarked fangraphs link is set to 2009 and sometimes i forget. He’s actually been doing better this year, but is still below average.

5 years 1 month ago

Definitely average at best. And overrated by a massive amount of my fellow Dodgers fans.

Just think, we could have drafted Joey Votto that year.

A damn shame I tell ya.

BaseballFanatic0707
5 years 1 month ago

Nolasco better find a way to bump that K rate up a bit. Peripherals are decent, but I dunno, i don’t like him pitching in NYS.

Plus the Marlins would ask for too much, I bet. And Nolasco isn’t the guy I’d be willing to give too too much for.

Also…seriously, ANOTHER catcher? Cashman…we only need one heir to Posada. We currently potentially have like 3.

bonestock94
5 years 1 month ago

The fact that a catcher almost netted the Yanks an ace should thoroughly illustrate that you can never have enough. If there’s a log jam they’re great trade bait, one of the most coveted positions.

johnsilver
5 years 1 month ago

The main reason the Yanks went after him is because he is both LH and a Yankee killer in the past. They were looking ahead to the playoffs facing him, nothing more. That team can go 4 deep rotation wise as it is with anybody and everyone that watches (and knows anything) baseball can plainly see that they are going to win the AL east and they will only be needing *3* SP’s in the playoffs for the early part anyway and 4 later on.

Sort of ‘preventive maintenance” is all it was trying to get him, that team could care less about it’s prospects, they are nothing but trade chips most of the team and will buy any player they want most of the time if need be, just like they will almost certainly buy Lee after this season anyway when he becomes a free agent.

Gunner65
5 years 1 month ago

I sure am glad the Reds didn’t send off Wood for any Lee deal … looks like Walts smarter then a lot of these guys on here that would have gladly put him in a deal for Lee … lol

ferg1025
5 years 1 month ago

Your right! Guilty as charged! I would have! Tonight he looked like a ace. Definetely changed my outlook on him. I want to see him put together some more outstanding starts though before I see him as a future #1 or #2 pitcher in the rotation.

Gunner65
5 years 1 month ago

I still don’t think he’ll be more then a #2 tops although I hope I am wrong & he becomes everything that Cliff Lee has … but even if he doesn’t, cheap, talented LH starters are just too difficult to come by & Lee would have only been here for 2+ months. Wood has the best change up from a lefty that I have seen since Hamels came up through the minor league ranks. And that cutter of his just chews up bat handles on RH hitters

bigpat
5 years 1 month ago

What do you think the Marlins would be looking for in a Nolasco deal? More young pitching? I know they have some good hitting prospects and I thought most of their young pithers have been in the majors already.

He’s the kind of guy the Pirates staff needs, but I doubt they’d be able to put together a solid offer for him. I’d like to see them bring in an established pitcher who can strike guys out and isn’t past his prime. If he can cut down on the homers, he’s the kind of buy-moderately low player that would really pay off. The Marlins traded Willingham and Olsen for peanuts, Neal might be able to pull a fast one on them.

Jaydizel
5 years 1 month ago

James Loney is solid player. Ned should have sign and trade C-bills for lee. Just hope Ely works things out

5 years 1 month ago

James Loney is worth about 2 WAR a season. A league average player playing at a position where most are way above league average. Cliff Lee is worth 6-7 WAR a season. Half a season of Lee is worth almost 2 seasons of Loney…………………………Ugh AVG with RISP and RBIs mean nothing, Loney gets RBIs because the players in front of him get on base a lot, and because for some reason he hits cleanup.

thegrayrace
5 years 1 month ago

Using your own statistic, WAR, Cliff Lee would be worth 3-3.5 WAR over 1/2 a season (6-7 WAR/season).Meanwhile, James Loney would be worth 5 WAR over 2 1/2 seasons (2 WAR/season).Which would’ve made it a bad trade for the Dodgers.

HerbertAnchovy
5 years 1 month ago

How many times do we have to go through the (insert team) is interested in Dunn, and Dunn will not be moved says (insert insider)

Cyyoung
5 years 1 month ago

Nationals GM and Owner are not too smart.

aap212
5 years 1 month ago

Why? Because they won’t trade a guy who’s perennially undervalued by the league for less than he’s worth to them? Because they want to keep a star while they’re still trying to establish a fan base?

Cyyoung
5 years 1 month ago

Because he will be gone anyway, and they still will be in last place.

aap212
5 years 1 month ago

He might not leave, and if he does, they might prefer the draft picks to the trade options.

ThinkBlue10
5 years 1 month ago

People, baseball isn’t just all about stats. when you watch a player play you see stuff you wouldnt see in stats, thats why you cant say loney is below average because you guys probably dont see loney play, you just look at his stats. UZR doesnt determine if you are a good defensive player.

5 years 1 month ago

I watch just about every game. Stats (the right ones) are objective, your eyes can deceive you.

5 years 1 month ago

Loney is 23rd among 25 qualifying first basemen in OPS. Third from the BOTTOM.

He is by far NOT the most productive player on the team.

5 years 1 month ago

My bad-my bookmarked fangraphs link is set to 2009 and sometimes i forget. He’s actually been doing better this year, but is still below average.

ThinkBlue10
5 years 1 month ago

he is NOT below average dude!

HerbertAnchovy
5 years 1 month ago

Have you seen his RISP? Loney gets little respect because he’s not a power hitter at a power position, but he leads the team in RBI’s (last time I saw) and is a grinder.

5 years 1 month ago

All stats aside? “So all evidence aside, i think he’s above average”

5 years 1 month ago

Look up the stats.

5 years 1 month ago

Yes, yes he is.

DUDE!

5 years 1 month ago

Yeah, anyone who hits 5th on the dodgers can get a lot of RBIs. That’s why that stat doesn’t matter.

5 years 1 month ago

Oh my, David Eckstein is also a grinder and gamer, let’s trade Matt Kemp for him and build a whole team of gamey gamers!

dire straits
5 years 1 month ago

not anyone

HerbertAnchovy
5 years 1 month ago

That’s a ridiculous thing to say. I’m not saying Loney is a superstar, not everyone is, but he’s a solid everyday guy.

5 years 1 month ago

Not ANYONE, but a lot of players. Loney isn’t bad, but he’s far from good.

ThinkBlue10
5 years 1 month ago

Cmon! give credit where credit is due! sure he isnt a power hitter like pujols, howard fielder, and gonzo but dude loney has talent, hes GOOD. He drives in runs, he plays good D, hes clutch, thats all i can ask from loney cuz i know hes not a power hitter.

HerbertAnchovy
5 years 1 month ago

No, but you need a few of those kind of players on a team.

5 years 1 month ago

I’d rather have a team full of Matt Kemps and Albert Pujols’s and the like than a team with even one David Eckstein.

HerbertAnchovy
5 years 1 month ago

Well, that’s your opinion, and your entitled to it. I would hate to see a team that unbalanced though.

5 years 1 month ago

You’d hate to see a team with great and elite players on it, consistently at 5+ WAR?

Hmmm, well, yes you are entitled to your opinion, but you build your team your way and I build mine my way, and I’ll win most of the time and have a better team.

To each his own.

I guess.

Oh, and my team would not be unbalanced. Not having a crappy player like David Eckstein is actually a good thing.

HerbertAnchovy
5 years 1 month ago

Relax, my last post was a joke…. I had a vision of Matt Kemp and Pujols playing every postion. That kind of thing is hard to convey on here.

5 years 1 month ago

Very hard to convey haha.