Rafael Soriano’s Contract

Opt-out clauses and player options often result in no-win situations for teams, as in the cases of A.J. Burnett and J.D. Drew in offseasons past.  Both players were performing well enough to opt out and score much bigger contracts, a path that C.C. Sabathia could follow after the 2011 season.  My initial reaction when Scott Boras negotiated two opt-outs within Rafael Soriano's three-year, $35MM deal with the Yankees was that the team made a major concession.  However, upon a closer look I'm not so sure.

The most baffling aspect of Soriano's contract is the suggestion that his $11.67MM average salary represented a drop in his price tag.  If that's a discount, I can't imagine what Boras was asking for at the beginning of the offseason.  In January, it wasn't even clear that Soriano had a second serious suitor.

Soriano

Had he not saved 72 games over the last two seasons, I imagine Soriano's salary would have been around $6MM a year, about half what he got from the Yankees and the going rate for a top setup man.  Closer inflation is the reason I don't expect Soriano to opt out of his contract at either of his chances.  If he puts up a strong 2011 season but saves fewer than ten games, what team would pay him more than the two years and $23.5MM left on his contract?  If Soriano sets up for Rivera in 2012 as well, what team would offer him more than $12.5MM for one year?  Soriano needs to hope for relief contracts to take additional leaps forward in the next two offseasons.

The main benefit to Soriano is the chance to try for a longer term after the '11 or '12 seasons.  But if you factor in a reduced setup man salary on a new deal, I'm still skeptical that he'd risk opting out.  A strong 2011 might allow Soriano to find a three-year deal for around $25MM, but that's not a big enough improvement over the two years and $23.5MM that would remain on his current deal.  Getting three years as opposed to one after the '12 season has added appeal, but the Yankees backloaded Soriano's contract so that it'll still be a tough choice for him.  For Soriano to have a clear reason to opt out at either point, he may need to be coming off a season in which he dominates and racks up 30+ saves.  Since Rivera is 42 now, that is possible.

Soriano is an injury risk, and I've seen the argument that the opt-out clauses ensure he'll remain with the Yankees if he suffers a major injury.  That would have been the case anyway on a normal guaranteed three-year deal.

Aside from the Yankees bidding against themselves, the biggest concern about the Soriano contract is the potential erosion of GM Brian Cashman's autonomy, as he was said to be opposed to signing Soriano due to the loss of the #31 overall draft pick to the Rays.  Co-owners Hank and Hal Steinbrenner and team president Randy Levine reportedly made the final decision to sign Soriano, though Wallace Matthew's source insisted:

"Cash has not lost one iota of credibility or autonomy over this. There has been no loss of faith in him at all. Cash is in charge of all baseball operations, but he would never in a million years tell you ownership doesn't make the final decisions. It's their money, not his."


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124 Comments on "Rafael Soriano’s Contract"


rzepczynski
4 years 5 months ago

I don’t really get this article…
just because he is the setup man for the yankees doesnt mean when he opts out he cant sign for closer money to be a teams closer…
he is setting up for the greatest closer of all time…

4 years 5 months ago

True, it doesn’t make closer money impossible, just less likely.

YanksFanSince78
4 years 5 months ago

To add to that, he’s already getting closer money so even if he did opt out, who will give him more than $11 mil per? The only scenario where I see him having a good and healthy 2011 and still leaving is if NY rubs him the wrong way or if a closer job opens up in a good city/good contender and he wants to make a lateral move to return to being a closer. He strikes me as someone that really is about the money though.

woadude
4 years 5 months ago

The main point here is I believe the fact that he won’t get anywhere near what hes making from the Yankees even if he was a closer for another team.

iheartyourfart
4 years 5 months ago

Good thing he has the opt-out in case the yankees try to use him as a starter

YanksFanSince78
4 years 5 months ago

He doesn’t have a no-trade protection so the Yanks can turn him into something of use as long as he is healthy. If the Yanks don’t look like serious contenders by July 15th and they can’t acquire a “difference maker” to improve their 2011 chances, then I could see them trading him to a contender. And it would take an honest evaluation of the team though.

0bsessions
4 years 5 months ago

Who’s going to take on that contract, though? I can’t really think of a team that could afford that contract and doesn’t already have a closer. MAYBE the Angels, but I sincerely doubt they’ll outperform the Yankees this year and I doubt you could, within reason, temper your expectations enough to disagree with me on that one.

YanksFanSince78
4 years 5 months ago

” I know you doubt you could, within reason, temper your expectations enough to disagree with me on that one”.

You lost me there. If the Yanks are not in it, meaning a .500 club by July 31st with the roation proving to be the problem and no viable trade options materialize, then they might decide to move Soriano.

Teams that could be contenders with questionable closers (inexperienced or inconsistent) or closers w/ injury concerns.

Oakland, Rangers, White Sox, Braves or Phillies.

I would say it’s less than a 20% chance of happening but if somone offered them a decent prospect (operative word is decent and not “elite”) if the Yanks sent some cash then it could happen. I think $8 mil is Soriano’s worth so if they sent $7 milover the length of the deal in exchange for a good and a meh prospect then it could happen.

0bsessions
4 years 5 months ago

Typo, I’ve since edited the post, but I basically meant that you and I both know there’s very little chance of a team that can afford him being closer to the playoffs than the Yanks.

The Rangers, White Sox, A’s, Braves and Phillies all have closer needs, but they’re all close to tapped out budget wise, so I’m not sure any would have the room. The only team I can thing of that has the room AND the need for a closer is the Angels, and their odds of competing for a playoff spot better than the Yankees are slim.

YanksFanSince78
4 years 5 months ago

I definetly see your point but keep in mind I was only speculating about the worse case scenario which would be the Yanks in 3rd or 4th place by mid July w/no reasonable expectations of it getting better. Obviously, that’s not something I want or expect to happen.

0bsessions
4 years 5 months ago

Worst case scenario? You say tomato…

Anyways, worst case scenario would still have to envision the Angels competing for the playoffs, which I likewise don’t see happening.

Fangaffes
4 years 5 months ago

Closers get injured.

0bsessions
4 years 5 months ago

This contract is bad because it’s way too much of a monetary commitment to a setup guy with a history of injury. The opt out is stupid, but not of much consequence as I can’t imagine a feasible situation where he’d opt out. The only way I can see him opting out is if Rivera gets hurt early and Soriano has an injury free season with a good 40 or so saves and an ERA under 2. On top of that, we’d also have to see a few of the half dozen or so closer candidates out there perform poorly. Regardless of what happens with Rivera, if Papelbon finally returns to form, Soriano would be insane to opt out of that much guaranteed money.

Lunchbox45
4 years 5 months ago

Too many Ifs…

bottom line, is it going to be easier for him to get a 3 year deal at the age of 33 or 34?

Even if he does end up with less money per year, it may still make sense to opt out of he can get a longer contract..

0bsessions
4 years 5 months ago

That’s right, too many ifs, the biggest one being “if” he can get a longer contract, which I sincerely doubt he can, at least one that has an AAV high enough to justify giving up the massive amount of pay he’s getting from NY.

Lunchbox45
4 years 5 months ago

but the IF my scenario depends upon is on the current market, which his agent will be able to forecast. Thats a calculated risk…

you saying if papelbon returns, if rivera gets injured, those are uncontrollable to Soriano.

Leaving 14 million on the table in his final year would be tough to explain. However a scenario that has him opt out after his second year, to obtain a bigger contract for more years (but less money per) could be a better option than playing the final year of his contract and having that be his last multi year deal.

The younger he opts out, the more likely he is to obtain more years on a deal. Thats not an IF

0bsessions
4 years 5 months ago

More years yes, but more money? What I’m saying is that there are just as many “ifs” that go into him doing better on the market than his current contract does as. If he opts out next offseason, he’s going up against a very strong closer class. If he opts out the year after, he’s leaving $14 million on the table and no team in their right mind is going to pay him remotely close that.

I can’t see a feasible scenario where he opts out and somebody gives him enough years to justify losing out on the money the Yankees are paying him. Even if someone else were dumb enough to give him three years next year, it’s be on something like an $8 million annual salary which is such a significant drop in salary that the years aren’t really worthwhile anymore.

4 years 5 months ago

Still wasn’t worth losing the first round pick.

PostMoBills
4 years 5 months ago

The Yankees probably figured they were going to sign Cliff Lee, so then they would be giving up their first pick no matter what.

EDIT: Never mind, forgot he was signed after Lee. Yeah, I’m not sure that was the way to go.

start_wearing_purple
start_wearing_purple
4 years 5 months ago

You really think it’ll hurt the yanks that much? So far in this century the only 2 yankee first round picks that have worked out have been Chamberlain and Hughes. Right now neither of which are on Soriano’s level. Not exactly the greatest sample size but we’re talking about giving up a lottery ticket here. Little more.

On the other side of things, the yanks now have a bullpen that likely one of the top in the league.

YanksFanSince78
4 years 5 months ago

I think you’re overvalueing draft picks.

I had a thought recently. If draft picks were tradeable how would we value them against a proven major league player.

For instance, what would Swisher, who is under contractfor 2011 & 2012 be worth in terms of a #15-#30 pick? What would Soriano be worth?

If the Pirates didn’t want to draft Rendon and had their eyes on a player who they could get with the #5 pick then what mlb talent would be worthy of this year’s #1 pick overall?

PostMoBills
4 years 5 months ago

I’m going to combine your post with start_wearing_purple’s and say that the Yankees may not value their draft picks because they’ve been unsuccessful with them. I’m a Twins fan, but I gotta use what I know. They value draft picks quite a bit, and looking at their history you can see why. Of their last 13 first round picks, 11 are still with the organization, including Mauer and Span. Their best pitching and position prospects Gibson and Hicks are also in those 11, and the rest are a mixed bag of talent including Perkins, Plouffe, and Revere, who all have MLB time, and Waldrop, who is knocking on the door.

Lunchbox45
4 years 5 months ago

and yet the yankees have a much better farm system than the twins

notsureifsrs
4 years 5 months ago

montero, like cano and sanchez and banuelos and many of their other top farm system talents, were not drafted. they were international free agent signings

i assume you know this, just clarifying that the strength of the yankees farm has almost nothing to do with drafting

Lunchbox45
4 years 5 months ago

Thats just an expansion of my point (sore shoulder, hard to type)

Yankees can afford to dip in to the international market, out bid some teams to land top free agents so that they can put less emphasis on the amateur draft.

Not every team can afford to sign top free agents AND have money to replenish their farm. Judging by the state of the yankees farm system, their system seems to be working just fine.

Now, while I agree that no team should give up a 1st round draft pick for a reliever. I would also add that the Yankees doing it is the most reasonable.

notsureifsrs
4 years 5 months ago

yeah? well screw you, buddy! (agreeing is boring)

YanksFanSince78
4 years 5 months ago

True, but at the same time the Yanks have produced a number of mlb players thru the draft in the last 8 years.

Phil Hughes, Austin Jackson, Brett Gardner, Joba, IPK, David Robertson, Mark Melancon, Phil Coke, Mike Dunn as well as a number of their top prospects.

MB923
4 years 5 months ago

Very true but it still of course involves scouting. Plus who was the last non-Japaense player the Yankees were interested in and outbid other teams interested in that player also?

YanksFanSince78
4 years 5 months ago

I would say that the Yanks DO value draft picks made evident by Cashman’s unwillingness to sign Soriano. Where the difference lies is that Cashman will give up a pick if it’s to sign an elite free agent who is going to make a major impact. The debate is, or was (I suspect), that Cash didn’t see Soriano having ENOUGH of an impact on wins to relinquish their 1st rnd pick.

When you look at the 1st rnd picks Cashman has made since give authority over the draft in 2005 he hasn’t really missed w/ the obvious exception of 2005:

2005: CJ Henry
2006: IPK and Joba
2007: Brackman
2008: Gerrit Cole
2009: Slade Heathcott
2010: Cito Culver

Too early to tell what the last two draft picks will do. Brackman looks like he will be a decent mlb pitcher.

notsureifsrs
4 years 5 months ago

to run with your thinking, the value would depend in large part on the quality of the draft class

this year’s draft class is freakin’ valuable

YanksFanSince78
4 years 5 months ago

I agree. Cashman obviously likes this years class also.

0bsessions
4 years 5 months ago

There’s this weird assumption by a lot of Yankees fans since the Soriano signing that, since the Yankees haven’t had any success with them, first rounders aren’t that important.

Compare to the Sox, another large market team who are generally picking towards the tail end of the first round. Since Epstein took over in 2003, he’s drafted the following first rounders:

2003: David Murphy, traded for Gagne, still starting for the Rangers
2004: We didn’t have a first rounder (We picked Pedroia with our first pick)
2005: Jacoby Ellsbury
2006: Daniel Bard
2007: Nick Hagadone, who was used to acquire Victor Martinez
2008: Casey Kelly, who was used to acquire Adrian Gonzalez
2009, Reymond Fuentes, likewise used to get Gonzalez
2010, Kolbrin Vitek, jury’s still out on him.

You say people are overvaluing picks? I say you’re severely undervaluing them based off the fact your team’s scouting has been lackluster when determining their first rounders. The Sox pick around the Yanks year in and year out and since coming on board, Epstein’s managed to spin his top picks into valuable trade pieces and MLB players. Sure, the Yanks can go out and buy anyone, but that doesn’t mean that draft picks, especially first rounders, aren’t incredibly important.

MB923
4 years 5 months ago

I agree with you in saying that they are important, but I disagree with you if you think they can’t be overvalued at all. A majority of first round picks tend to be busts, and a wide margin of all star calibur players tend to be in the later rounds of draft picks. The best player in baseball was not even drafted until the 13th round.

How many picks year in and year out have the Pirates had in the first rounds and how many of them tend to be all star players?

YanksFanSince78
4 years 5 months ago

My statement about “overvalueing” 1st rnd picks still stands. It’s all relative. Cashman will sign an elite free agent and give up a pick w/o a 2nd thought. He will however, pause when it comes to certain other Type As and the depth of the next draft class.

The Yanks HAVE had some good #1 picks since he took over those responsibilities in 2005. I listed them in a previous post.

“The Sox pick around the Yanks year in and year out and since coming on board, Epstein’s managed to spin his top picks into valuable trade pieces and MLB players”.

Yanks have done the same. Difference is, Epstein had a lot more Type A’s that have signed elsewhere than the Yanks.

Since 2005 (6 drafts): Yanks have had 9 1st and supp.picks. Sox have had 17 1st and supps.

0bsessions
4 years 5 months ago

“Yanks have done the same. Difference is, Epstein had a lot more Type A’s that have signed elsewhere than the Yanks.

Since 2005 (6 drafts): Yanks have had 9 1st and supp.picks. Sox have had 17 1st and supps. ”

Problem with this point is that I didn’t name a single supplementary pick. If I’d gotten into that, the gulf gets even wider (We’re talking guys like Buchholz and Lowrie). Epstein has a tendency to only give up a first rounder if he’s getting one back from another player. The Sox have only had two first rounders once in Epstein’s tenure (2006, after letting Damon walk, and he got Bard with that pick). So yeah, your point is effectively moot, the Sox just seem to be better at first rounders than the Yanks and that difference of a couple spots in the order can’t account for the amount of difference out there.

YanksFanSince78
4 years 5 months ago

Seems like we are arguing semantics here.

2005: Sox had two 1st rnd picks turned into Ellsbury and Hansen. Sox also had three supps turned into Buchholz, Lowrie and Bowden.

2006: Sox had two 1st rnd picks turned into Jason Place and Bard. Sox also had two supps turned into Kristofer Johnson and Caleb Clay.

2007: One 1st and 3 supps

Does it really matter if they’re 1st or 1st supps?

0bsessions
4 years 5 months ago

Yes, it does, because your argument appears to mostly focus on the fact that the Yankees not yielding positive results from the first round is in some way indicative of the lack of importance of picking in the first round.

I omit supplemental rounders because, as you say, a higher yield of picks can in turn yield better results due to law of averages. If we omit the first rounders to eliminate the statistical advantage rendered by said law of averages, we STILL see a better result from the Red Sox, even with a minimal difference in draft position.

All this to say: first round picks are actually quite important, even to a high market team, as it can produce a mix of quality players AND trade components. For example, if the Yankees’ early round draft scouting was as good as their international scouting, perhaps they could’ve pulled off that trade for Lee, maybe even without including Montero.

YanksFanSince78
4 years 5 months ago

Wow….not sure how we got here.

a) I never said that the 1st rnd picks were irrelevant because the Yanks were poor evaluators. In fact what I did say was…

“When you look at the 1st rnd picks Cashman has made since give authority over the draft in 2005 he hasn’t really missed w/ the obvious exception of 2005:

2005: CJ Henry
2006: IPK and Joba
2007: Brackman
2008: Gerrit Cole
2009: Slade Heathcott
2010: Cito Culver

b) What I DID say was

“I would say that the Yanks DO value draft picks made evident by Cashman’s unwillingness to sign Soriano. Where the difference lies is that Cashman will give up a pick if it’s to sign an elite free agent who is going to make a major impact. The debate is, or was (I suspect), that Cash didn’t see Soriano having ENOUGH of an impact on wins to relinquish their 1st rnd pick”.

c) I said Theo was a better talent evaluator than Cashman. YOU were making all the rant about howmany great players Theo pulled out of the 1st round and I simply said that it is easier for him to amass so many considering that he had twice as many 1st and supp picks. Contrary to what you wrote, Buchholz and Lowrie WERE NOT your regular 1st rnd picks. They were picked in the supp round. That fact really doesn’t matter though (whether they were 1st or supps). I mean is there a signifigant difference between being the 28th overall vs the 37th? Not really.

YanksFanSince78
4 years 5 months ago

And also, I was never arguing about who was a better judge of talent in the draft. Theo has been better than Cashman. Still, when you have twice as many picks in the 1st and supp then you have greater room for error. That’s sort of common sense.

0bsessions
4 years 5 months ago

Common sense, yes, but as noted, that’s irrelevant to my examples. All of them were first rounders only and they only picked twice in the first round once. It’s not an issue of room for error, the Sox have just performed better. And I know you’re not arguing judgment of talent on its own, but it comes into play when you want to argue that first rounders aren’t all that important. The point I’m trying to make is that the Red Sox have picked close to the Yankees in every draft and have a much higher rate of success in utilizing their first rounders successfully. That is indicative of the idea that it’s less that late first rounders aren’t all that useful and more indicative that the Yankees are just not very good at evaluating first round talent.

YanksFanSince78
4 years 5 months ago

Again…Before you even went there I said “Theo is a better talent evaluator”. What more do you want me to say?

“Common sense, yes, but as noted, that’s irrelevant to my examples. All of them were first rounders only and they only picked twice in the first round once”.

Theo was the GM for the June 2005 draft. They had two “natural” (seems to me your intent on sperating the 1st rnd from the supps) and two more in 2006.

Either way: Ellsbury, Hansen, Bard, Place, Kelly, Fuentes and Vitek are your “true”1st rnders as if it makes a difference.

AND I NEVER SAID 1ST ROUNDERS ARE UNIMPORTANT. You clearly have me confused with someone else. What I said was that for an elite talent (CC, Tex and AJ) Cash is willing to give up the 1st rnder. Please read what I said and stop putting words in my mouth.

bjsguess
4 years 5 months ago

The Opt Out was put in there for one of three reasons:

1. Non-Financial concerns. If Soriano doesn’t like NY he can opt out. Potentially he earns less money but a few extra mill isn’t a huge deal if he is miserable. And NY is just the kind of place that many players will have some apprehension about. It’s just so different than anything else that it’s hard to predict in advance how well one will adjust. Seems like (to an outsider) that people either love it or hate it.

2. Betting on Rivera Getting Hurt. Mo is up there. He could break down at any time or become less effective. Soriano may have been brought in to be a set-up guy but would it really shock anyone if ended up closing before the deal is over? Imagine if Mo goes down with a career ending injury and Soriano saves 45 games this year. He could easily opt out and get more money for years 2 or 3 (either from the Yankees or another big spending club). Of course, I’m not convinced that Rivera is even human. That dude might continue to be the best closer in baseball for another 20 years.

3. Baseball inflation. Should salaries spike for some reason Soriano has the ability to get out of his contract and re-up for more dough.

For me – I bet that it’s primarily around #2. With Rivera hurt Soriano would have tremendous leverage to extract “closer” money from the Yankees (which is probably closer to $15m/year) or get more guaranteed years/dollars from another club after proving himself in NY. I DOUBT that it will come to that but I could see the see the wisdom in adding the opt-out just in case.

YanksFanSince78
4 years 5 months ago

I don’t know about #2. I mean 2/$25 mil IS closer money. Who, outside of the Red Sox, Yankee and maybe the Phillies would offer him that much? I think he might want to be a closer elsewhere and he may leave to return back to that role but I don’t think he’ll get a better offer than what he would be walking away from.

This past winter I thought the Yanks could sign him for 3/$24 mil. Now he walks away from 2/$25 mil to try and get more money? Don’t see it.

Lunchbox45
4 years 5 months ago

texas?

bjsguess
4 years 5 months ago

You close for the Yanks, rack up 45-50 saves I have no doubt that he could land a better deal than 2/$25. That is a lot of money but it’s not some astronomical amount. Plenty of closers are in that range.

Lunchbox45
4 years 5 months ago

SO if he gets 40-50 saves with a 2.36 ERA he’ll get a better deal than if he has no saves with the same ERA??

Everyone in the league knows he’s a closer, and knows this wasn’t a demotion for him. I really think everyone is overvaluing saves.

bjsguess
4 years 5 months ago

I don’t. To the average fan saves mean a LOT. Most casual fans can name their closers. Ask them about the guy in the 8th inning and they will give you a blank stare.

I would revise your statement to say that “Everyone should realize that they overvaluing saves.”

Also, for what it’s worth he’s got 2 years of closing under his belt. Another solid year + a need from a high payroll team = big payout.

4 years 5 months ago

If #2 is all about setting himself up for a huge future payday if Rivera gets hurt, why not just take Boston’s (presumably strong) one-year offer to close, rack up 40 saves there, and get a monster deal?

bjsguess
4 years 5 months ago

Couple things:

1. How good was the offer from Boston? I don’t recall seeing anything to suggest that he would have landed a 1/$13m type deal … but then I might have missed it. The Boston offer was probably a little complex given that they would have needed to move Paplebon (or I guess they could have non-tendered him).

2. I don’t think that he is betting on Mo getting hurt. My guess is that he wants to play in NY and wants to fulfill his contract. HOWEVER, if Mo gets hurt/performs poorly he now has the ability to opt out and negotiate a better deal. It’s an insurance policy essentially.

4 years 5 months ago

This is all we have from Heyman, who is pretty plugged in with Boras:

“The Red Sox showed interest in Soriano, and appeared willing to do a one-year deal for him to be their closer. Had that happened, Boston would have found a new home for Papelbon, probably Oakland or the White Sox.”

So, we don’t really know, but it had to be $10MM+.

Lunchbox45
4 years 5 months ago

Going based on that, its clear he made the most logical decision.

Worst case scenario on the yanks, he has a bad year and has 25 million to fall back on.

Worst case scenario on the sox he struggles and ends up having to re establish his value in order to get anywhere near 10 mil or multi year deals again.

bjsguess
4 years 5 months ago

Thanks Tim. Didn’t see that.

Agree with Lunchbox that he made the right decision. Have to wonder why the Yanks felt inclined to go 3 years @ $12m/ if the next best thing was a 1/$10 type deal.

4 years 5 months ago

Sabathia and Soriano both opting out could be a blessing in disguise for the Yankees. While it is a huge loss for the Yanks to lose Sabathia but he would be too big of a risk if they sign him to a say 7 year deal. CC has close to 2200 IP in his career, around 750 IP in his last 3 seasons and he would be 30 next year. If he was doc halladay then it would be fine but considering body type, I think a major injury could be down the line. Soriano is a luxury and Yankees should do fine without him

Yes this would leave a huge hole in the pitching staff as they would lose their horse. But, at the same time it would free up a lot of money which the Yankees could use in the future. The next year’s FA pitchers are not great but a Buehrle (assuming he wouldn’t retire) would be just fine for the bombers. He’s no CC but he won’t cost like one as well and at the same time give you 200IP, 3.5-4 ERA and 15+ wins. Not too shabby. They could give a shot to their young pitching prospects as well.

My point is, I would let the other teams take the gamble on an aging horse with tremendous amount of workload on his arm. We don’t want another ARod-esque deal here.

4 years 5 months ago

It’d be a blessing compared to giving CC another seven years starting with the 2012 season, I can see that, but the best scenario would have been him not having an opt-out and just fulfilling the original contract.

YanksFanSince78
4 years 5 months ago

If forced to, the Yanks will give him another 7/$161 mil though.

Yanks were willing to offer Lee 7/$148 at age 32 age (as of April 1st, 2011). Sabathia will be 31 as of April 1st, 2012 so he’ll be a year younger than Lee was at the time the contract was extended. Sucks, but we need him.

YanksFanSince78
4 years 5 months ago

Most feel that CC’s body type is what has helped him become so durable. Assuming his knee surgery wasn’t anything serious he’s never had an injury that has caused him to go on the DL I don’t believe.

4 years 5 months ago

If they both opt out for more money, they would both end up resigning with the Yankees anyway, so I don’t get the point of speculating.

MB923
4 years 5 months ago

Soriano is not necessarily going to re-sign with the Yankees if he does opt out. He certainly will not get more money either unless something happened to Rivera which would make Soriano their new closer.

YanksFanSince78
4 years 5 months ago

Buerhle is not an ace.

MB923
4 years 5 months ago

Then the Mets might actually finish with a better record than the Yankees.

start_wearing_purple
start_wearing_purple
4 years 5 months ago

If Sabathia opts out my bet is he’ll pretty quickly re-sign with the yanks for something close to the same yearly salary but with more years on it. As for Soriano, no clue what’s going on there.

rzepczynski
4 years 5 months ago

in 2020?

start_wearing_purple
start_wearing_purple
4 years 5 months ago

If it rubs the team the team the wrong way they shouldn’t have given him the option to walk away in the first place. And as you said, it didn’t stop them from resigning ARod.

Sabathia seems like a fairly classy guy though, I doubt he’ll opt out without giving the yanks a shot at keeping him. My bet is he’ll use the opt out as a bargaining chip to get the yanks to sign him to an extension. Maybe another 3-4 years at the same base salary.

4 years 5 months ago

The major difference is that A-Rod’s contract and opt-out clause was carried from Texas. Sabathia’s contract is all Yankees.

I highly doubt we would even negotiate with him if he exercises his opt-out.

4 years 5 months ago

and go into 2012 with Phil Hughes as the ace?…yeah…right

4 years 5 months ago

he will opt out…no doubt…it’d be dumb business to not opt out and clearly he’s not a dumb business man, otherwise he wouldnt have gotten the clause put in there. and he will resign with the yankees.

start_wearing_purple
start_wearing_purple
4 years 5 months ago

Right now with Sabathia the yanks rotation I’d say the yanks rotation is probably somewhere between 10th and 15th best in the league. Without him, well much worse. You can’t just lose your ace pitcher and expect everything will work out. Make no mistake about it, if Sabathia opts out, the yanks will still be the top suitor.

jb226
4 years 5 months ago

Wait, wait, wait.

You’ll re-sign A-Rod, whose opt-out you had no hand in creating, but the guy you deliberately put an opt-out into the contract for you wouldn’t even negotiate with if he uses it?

That’s completely and utterly backward.

woadude
4 years 5 months ago

There will be no difference if CC opts out compared to a contract that Texas offered, the point is New York offered the same opt out Texas did for A-Rod to CC and so he has a right to opt out, the same thing will happen to him that happened to A-Rod, he will make slightly more a year, I guarantee CC will opt out for the sole reason he wants to re-establish being the highest paid pitcher.

YanksFanSince78
4 years 5 months ago

Actually, Cashman offered the opt out, Sabathia didn’t demand it. Cashman offered it to alleviate Sabathia’s concerns about his family adjusting to NY. It would be odd, but not surprising, if Sabathia used, what was a good intention, against the Yanks. We’ll see.

YanksFanSince78
4 years 5 months ago

Maybe you missed the point of the irony. I said Cashman OFFERED the opt out clause in case Sabathia’s family didn’t like NY. It would be “odd” if, in an act of thoughtfullness, the gesture ended up being used against him to extract more money and years from Cashman by Sabathia.

0bsessions
4 years 5 months ago

Mariano Rivera. As I recall, the Sox offered him more.

Sure, he gets paid massive amounts of money, but he’s also the best closer ever. He likes money like the rest of us, but he’s obviously got other interests.

YanksFanSince78
4 years 5 months ago

What does every other Yankee come into play? It irritates me the way ppl try to turn things around. The point I made was that I’m not sure if Soriano would LEAVE money on the table just for an opportunity to close elsewhere. He seems like he’s willing to do whatever role as long as it’s for the most money. Back up!!

woadude
4 years 5 months ago

That A-Rod guy isn’t about the money, he even fired Boras, once you have all the money, you are no longer all about the money.

East Coast Bias
4 years 5 months ago

Can’t this be said about an overwhelming majority of MLB players, or players of any major sport? Everyone loves the game, but they love providing for and securing their family’s well being/future even more.

YanksFanSince78
4 years 5 months ago

But wouldn’t you agree that 2/$25 mil is closer money already?

YanksFanSince78
4 years 5 months ago

I’m making perfect sense when you read what I said in context… “if somone offered them a decent prospect (operative word is decent and not “elite”)”. Basically, I was making it clear that it’s doubtful the Yanks were going to get a “Montero” like prospect from someone but might be able to get a “Noesi + Laird” instead.

YanksFanSince78
4 years 5 months ago

1)-Probably not; Let’s hope not.
2)-Not everyone was for the deal and if Soriano’s alleged attitude rubs them the wrong way then they might be willing to get rid of him. He doesn’t have a no-trade clause.
3) Part of the reason why no one wanted Soriano was because his asking price was too high and he would cost a draft pick. If the Yanks trade him and agreed to send $7 mil then he can be had for less than what he was asking for during FA and the team could deal for him w/o losing a pick and in fact might have a strength that their dealing from that won’t hurt the team.

Here’s an example of a possible scenario. And, it’s sort of waste of time as I mentioned it has less than a 20% chance of playing out but just for fun..

Angels in 1st bur Rodney is hurt/struggling. Yanks don’t feel they are real contenders. Kazmir is having a decent year (pitching innings to a 4.00 FIP). Trout is tearing up the minors and ready for a callup. ANgels offer Kazmir and Bourjos for Soriano. Or forget Kazmir, maybe Bourjos and Chevez Clarke for Soriano and $7 mil. All plausible IMO.

bjsguess
4 years 5 months ago

It doesn’t help the Yankees at all. Teams don’t put those clauses in for their advantage. It’s like a NTC. These are player only benefits.

notsureifsrs
4 years 5 months ago

a proven free agent setup man is quite a different thing from a sabathia or a teixeira. or even a burnett

YanksFanSince78
4 years 5 months ago

How could you possibly see a negative in what I said when I was simply asking others what THEIR thoughts on valueing draft picks? If you would pull your @ss out of your head you would realize I used Swisher as an reference and DIDN’T place ANY value on him. Instead, I asked what would OTHERS value him in terms of a mid-to late pick in the 1st rnd.

notsureifsrs
4 years 5 months ago

i didn’t mean the contract is different. i meant that the value of 65 innings worth of pitching for $12MM+a first-round draft pick in this year’s loaded draft class is much, much less

how much better is soriano going to be in those 65 innings than david robertson for example? or any of the free agent relievers that didn’t cost a pick and that salary? maybe 1 game, at most? and that’s assuming he pitches well and doesn’t get injured and doesn’t fall victim to the kind of standard variance that can ruin a reliever’s small season

notsureifsrs
4 years 5 months ago

don’t forget to factor in soriano pitching in a pitcher’s park last year with a near career low HR/FB% and a .199 BABIP. he’s now in a HR park with BABIP regression due and a worse defense behind him

MB923
4 years 5 months ago

“Right now with Sabathia the yanks rotation I’d say the yanks rotation is probably somewhere between 10th and 15th best in the leagu”

That’s actually pretty high.

4 years 5 months ago

Who’s is better? The Rays, Red Sox (debatable), White Sox, Tigers (debatable..but maybe), A’s…. who else? Rangers? I don’t think so. Angels? Also don’t think so.

MB923
4 years 5 months ago

And if he had chosen to pitch in 2011, Andy Pettitte as well.

4 years 5 months ago

It was added to the contract as an incentive for him to sign the deal. It wouldn’t be “odd” for him to avail himself of something that was offered to him.

Ben_Cherington
4 years 5 months ago

ever go to mcdonalds and they mess your order up, then OFFER you an apple pie? It would be ODD not take the apple pie? Do you get it?

woadude
4 years 5 months ago

There is no love in NY, and you know he will take Cashman’s kindness and use it against him, It’s the perfect mixture of salt and vinegar directly into the wound.

MB923
4 years 5 months ago

That could definitely hurt him.

MB923
4 years 5 months ago

“It’s a lottery ticket to the Yankees because they’re apparently not good in scouting and/or player development ”

Then how are they ranked in the top 5-10 on nearly all scouting sites?

Lunchbox45
4 years 5 months ago

F-

notsureifsrs
4 years 5 months ago

“How much better is Mariano Rivera going to be than J.J. Putz?”

way better. and rivera didn’t cost a first-round pick

i’m not arguing that the yankees do care about first-round picks, obviously

MB923
4 years 5 months ago

Well I’m at least satisfied they have a catcher (if healthy) who could throw out more runners than the Sox 2 current catchers combined. Players can practically walk on VTek and Salty (and Posada too). I think the 3 key players for the Sox are Beckett, Dice-K, and you may question my last one, Jonathan Papelbon.

For the Yankees, the 3 key players are Jeter, Burnett, and Hughes (maybe Soriano though instead of Jeter, but Jeter’s ground balls are a cause for concern more)

YanksFanSince78
4 years 5 months ago

And again….the point of the opt out was because Cashman wanted Sabathia to feel free to leave if his family didn’t like NY. It was not the intention for him to opt out to ask for more money. If you can’t see the irnony in that or how Sabathia might use it against them then I can’t help you. I’m not accusing Sabathia of being a bad guy for using but obviously that wasn’t the reason it was offered.

woadude
4 years 5 months ago

Let me put it in Layman’s terms, he gave him the opt out in case he didn’t like NY, obviously CC and his family love NY, so in Cashman’s eyes he shouldn’t opt out for more money, because he only put it in there in case he didn’t like NY, so if he opts out, Cashman could see that as saying I don’t like NY. Comprehend?

YanksFanSince78
4 years 5 months ago

Bad comparison.

woadude
4 years 5 months ago

Yes because their apple pies are disgusting.

YanksFanSince78
4 years 5 months ago

There are only 14 teams in the AL and you think being called a top 10-15 is high? Haha.

MB923
4 years 5 months ago

Well he didn’t say American League, he said the league, so that could easily apply to the entire major league.

Ben_Cherington
4 years 5 months ago

not really…soriano wasnt getting what he wanted, to be a closer, thus the yanks threw in a opt out clause to make him feel better.

Either way I thought it was a funny but somewhat close comparison

YanksFanSince78
4 years 5 months ago

That’s not what I said…

“He strikes me as someone that really is about the money though”.

I noted that one reason he COULD decide to leave would be to become the closer for another team for the same money or maybe less. However, he strikes me (and Boras aswell) as a guy who goes where the most money is. Meaning that if he left it would be because he saw a bigger paycheck and not just an opp to return to closing.

East Coast Bias
4 years 5 months ago

Actually, that’s the exact opposite of what YFS78 said…

MB923
4 years 5 months ago

I think the Rays and Red Sox do have better rotations, but I do think they have ?’s also. The Red Sox have Lester and 4 ?’s (I only ? Buchholz because I want to see him have more than 1 good year. Well I’m a Yankee fan, techinically I don’t want him to do it lol, but you get my point), the Rays have Price and 4 ?’s, the Yankees have CC, and 4 BIG ?’s. A’s have the best rotation in the AL. White Sox and Twins have a better rotation. I’d say the Tigers and Blue Jays are about even with the Yankees.

Lunchbox45
4 years 5 months ago

More money than anyone else offered is the equivalent to someone messing up your order?

YanksFanSince78
4 years 5 months ago

But we weren’t talking about Soriano’s opt out we were talking about Sabathia’s. I feel like I’m in a bad episode of some 1930’s comedy. Abbott!!!!

Lunchbox45
4 years 5 months ago

Everyone has question marks, last year everyone predicted the sox to have the best rotation in the league, injuries and bad seasons happen. . and predictions should always be taken with a grain of salt.

However in terms of on paper, projections, you can’t win an argument that the Red Sox, rays, A’s have as many question marks as the yankees.

The silver lining is that besides the red sox, the other teams don’t have the offense to bail out average pitching more often then not.

alphabet_soup5
4 years 5 months ago

You’re off your horse if you think the Twins pitching is on par with Chicago’s and better than Detroit’s.

MB923
4 years 5 months ago

Yes everyone has question marks, but as I pointed out, the Yankees have bigger ones than other teams. But as we all know games aren’t won on paper so we shall see what happens.

0bsessions
4 years 5 months ago

“Players can practically walk on VTek and Salty (and Posada too)”

Curtis Granderson probably argues otherwise.

0bsessions
4 years 5 months ago

By having an absolutely amazing set of talent evaluators scouting the international market. You have to admit, their poor track record in the first round is more likely indicative of poor scouting for the amatuer draft than anything else.

woadude
4 years 5 months ago

The opt out was only in case he didn’t like NY, so if he opts out, he is pretty much saying he doesn’t like NY, Cashman should want some sort of loyalty here, its not like they paid him chump change, if he opts out, he is slapping the Yankees organization in the face, its pretty crystal clear, the opt out wasn’t to give him anything but a chance to leave if he wasn’t comfortable in NY, nothing else.

YanksFanSince78
4 years 5 months ago

I don’t take it as him saying he doesn’t like NY. If he or moreso his family want out of NY then there probably isn’t enough to make him stay. More likely, if he opt out it’s to sqeeze more years out of Cashman.

YanksFanSince78
4 years 5 months ago

He still is the highest paid pitcher in terms of total dollars. I think more years is more likely what he’s seeking.

East Coast Bias
4 years 5 months ago

I can’t see the Yanks engaging Soriano if he opts out. Sabathia is a necessity. Soriano is a luxury, one that can be replaced in either of his opt out off seasons.

East Coast Bias
4 years 5 months ago

Yeah but what’s so “odd” about opting out if Cashman put the clause in there to begin with?

(I’m kidding, of course. Had a laugh reading this string of comments haha)

East Coast Bias
4 years 5 months ago

At McDonalds, no less. The nerve…

MB923
4 years 5 months ago

Is your reading comprehension poor? I was comparing those teams rotations to the Yankees.

MB923
4 years 5 months ago

I looked at his stats from 2010, Granderson stole 2 bases against the Red Sox and wasn’t caught. So you must be referring to something he did while as a Tiger then right?

MB923
4 years 5 months ago

A poor track record in the first round due to late picks round after round. Somehow, several good Yankee picks turn out to be later round picks.

0bsessions
4 years 5 months ago

Our starting catcher was Victor Martinez last year. I was referring more to the other night’s ST game where Saltalamacchia caught Granderson stealing second.

0bsessions
4 years 5 months ago

The Red Sox pick late every year, but they’ve managed to do very well with their first rounders. Either Epstein is clairvoyant or the Yankees have an issue when it comes to picking first rounders.

MB923
4 years 5 months ago

Didn’t see it. Blacked out in NY :(

East Coast Bias
4 years 5 months ago

Winning a championship changes people…