Mariners Notes: Thieben, Montero, Adams

The Mariners endured their 13th walk-off loss of the season at the hands of the Twins yesterday, setting a franchise record. Seattle which is tied with the Angels for the most walk-off losses in baseball this season, visits the Rangers tonight…

  • The Mariners are expected to sign Daniel Thieben, an 18-year-old right-hander who's the youngest member of Germany's World Cup roster, according to John Manuel of Baseball America. The deal will likely become official in early November, when international scouting director Bob Engle visits Germany. Thieben's best pitch is a curveball and his fastball sits in the mid or upper-80s.
  • Brian Cashman's comments about Carl Crawford made headlines today and his candor extended to the near-trade that would have sent Jesus Montero and others to the Mariners for Cliff Lee last summer. The GM told Ian O'Connor of ESPNNewYork.com that Montero "would've been by far the best player moved" in any of the three deals involving Lee.
  • Cashman told Larry Stone of the Seattle Times that he had Lee until the Mariners decided they didn't like the medicals on second baseman David Adams and moved on to the Rangers, who were offering Justin Smoak.


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64 Comments on "Mariners Notes: Thieben, Montero, Adams"


notsureifsrs
3 years 11 months ago

man he talks a lot

3 years 11 months ago

He didn’t used to. He must be frustrated.

3 years 11 months ago

Talking about the Crawford thing publicly seems like bad business. Why create or cultivate that impression of yourself? But good for him on the Montero thing. Seattle backed out of an agreed to deal to make an inferior deal. Cashman not only made a good faith offer, but a really, really good one. 

Smoaked
3 years 11 months ago

No way was the Rangers deal inferior to the Yankees deal.  Smoak, Beaven, and Leuke are all going to be MLB regulars.  Montero looks to be a DH…the last thing the Mariners needed was a catcher who couldn’t catch and a broken down infielder.  Plenty of those in their organization at the time of the trade.

East Coast Bias
3 years 11 months ago

We have the next ten years to compare Montero and Smoak. And by the looks of it, maybe even Nova and Beavan.

Smoaked
3 years 11 months ago

It wasn’t Nova, it was McCallister. 

East Coast Bias
3 years 11 months ago

You’re right. But Nova was involved somehow, from what I recall. I think Seattle wanted Nova to replace Adams in the deal after checking medical records?

YanksFanSince78
3 years 11 months ago

It absolutely was NOT McAllister. 

It was Montero, Nova and Adams and Nunez was the sub they asked for Adams.

3 years 11 months ago

Do we have any evidence Montero couldn’t play first? It’s just that the Yankees already have Teixeira. Besides, Smoak has looked terrible defensively at first since reaching the majors and hasn’t hit either (though I still think he will when he’s totally healthy). Besides, it’s not like Beaven is a great prospect. A team should be able to generate its own back-end starters. And then, of course, there’s the PR nightmare of Josh Lueke.

So can you debate Cashman’s point that Montero was better than any other player traded for Lee?

3 years 11 months ago

What are you, reading reports saying Smoak looks “slow” defensively from last year? Smoak has been efficient defensively. I’m not claiming he’s great or anything, but he’s far from “terrible” as your comment suggests. The cause of his mid-season collapse was a bad thumb injury he played through, and he’s looked like the Smoak of April-June since returning. The only reason you compare Nova to Beavan is because Nova is trash compared to Pineda, benefiting from the Yankees offense and luck. I’m not saying Smoak is better than Montero/vice versa, just that it’s impossible to tell right now and you inaccurately make it sound as though Montero is better, which isn’t necessarily false, just yet to be seen.

3 years 11 months ago

What does Pineda have to do with anything? He was already Mariners property. And no, I was talking about Smoak’s defense having seen him a lot this year. If he’s not a spectacular defensive first baseman, I don’t see where he gets a huge benefit over Montero, who could presumably at least play first base semi-adequately.

3 years 11 months ago

I mention Pineda because Blake Beavan was not a make-or-break part of the Cliff Lee deal, which was centered around and only completed because of the inclusion of Justin Smoak. There’s no proof that Nova was ever going to be sent to Seattle in any Lee/Yankees trade, either. He’s not a “spectacular defensive first baseman,” and I agree with that right now, but he’s far from looking “terrible defensively” as the comment you made that I first replied to stated. If Montero can play first decently, that still doesn’t make him better than Smoak just as it doesn’t make Smoak better than Montero. Be patient, give the two time to prove themselves and further adjust, then we’ll see which player is better.

YanksFanSince78
3 years 11 months ago

Hmmmm…….let’s break this comment down because it truly struck me as odd.

#1- No way was the Rangers deal inferior to the Yankees deal.  Smoak, Beaven, and Leuke are all going to be MLB regulars.

Comment: Smoak might definetly have a 10 year + career. Whether he will be Jack Cust or Mark Teixeira remains to be seen. Beavan might be 6’7 and 240 but he throws a very mediocre FB that tops out at 90 mph and he throws it often (65%) this year. His FIP was 4.27 and he struck a minuscule amount of hitters this year 3.72/9 and recorded few GB 38%. He would be very lucky to repeat that again. He may have a 10 year career in the majors but is it going to be as an impact player or at least a #3-#4 quality starter? Leuke is going to turn 27 in December, got smashed hard in his albeit small sample size of mlb competition. Still he had a good FIP (3.38) and throws hard. However, he would have to be Paplebon-ish in in order to call him an impact player. 
 
The rumored deal the Yanks offered and was agreed upon before the M’s backed out was for Jesus Montero, Ivan Nova (24 yo w/ the 3.18 FIP away from NYS) who has a combined 4/07 FIP (much lower after the All-star break) and David Adams. Hold that thought.

#2-“Montero looks to be a DH…the last thing the Mariners needed was a catcher who couldn’t catch…….”

Ok..think what you will of Montero. Maybe he will never be a “good” catcher and maybe he’ll never catch more than 150 games in his career as a catcher.

FACT: The M’s were dead last in the majors in Runs scored.
FACT: The M’s play in the AL where they have a thing called a DH.
FACT: Montero can be their DH and might even be a decent enough 1B where he could’ve been switched to a position.

#3- “…and a broken down infielder”.

Hard to argue that Adams has not been injury plagued this year and with Ackley they really don’t even need another 2B. I still like Adams and think if he can stay healthy for a full year he will be excellent trade bait for the Yanks next year because he is going to be a good mlb hitter.

While I would not let Nunez be the deciding factor on a “to trade or not to trade for Lee” debate I certainly think that the Yanks would’ve been more than willing to substitute another good prospect into the deal to go along with Montero and Nova.

I easily think a deal for those two and “a” Adam Warren, David Phelps, DJ Mitchell, Brandon Laird, JR Murphy type could’ve been done w/o a doubt.

As a Yankee fan I’m happy it didn’t happen because there’s no doubt that we still would’ve had a hard time bringing Lee back to NY despite the money offered and his “best friend relationship” with CC. Sometime the best deals are the ones you don’t make.. ala Mariano Rivera for David Wells, Robinson Cano in the Arod deal or Phil Hughes, IPK and Jesus Montero for Johan Santana trade proposals.

spokaneman
3 years 11 months ago

Never remembered Nova in the deal.  Just looked up a NY Post article that says ‘the Yankees refused to include Nova’.  So not sure where that is coming from.  I remember, as a previous post said, that the pitcher was Zach McAllister.  And the replacement we asked for for Adams was indeed Nunez. 

3 years 11 months ago

“It is what it is,” Cashman said Tuesday. “You don’t have a deal until you officially have a deal. Our guy, Adams, didn’t pass the medicals. They went back to the original stuff I had been saying no to all along.”
You guy s that keep trying to say the Mariners backed out on an agreed upon deal just need to STFU. As East Coast Bias and I have argued about many times, its not a deal until its finalized. Read the article, Cashman wasn’t mad, its the way it goes…..If you all want to be mad, be mad at the worthless NY writers who fabricate news.

Phillies_Aces35
3 years 11 months ago

Do most GM’s like to:

1. Talk about other teams players and how they should be his one way or another or how he really didn’t want them he just was pretending?
2. Come out publicly and say that he thinks signing _____ is a bad move.
3. Openly talk about failed deals and the prospects involved.
4. Make stupid comments in general

… or is that just Brian Cashman?

Maybe it’s because I’m used to Ruben Amaro who’s pretty much the opposite of Cashman personality wise. I’m just having a really tough time understanding what’s going on in Cashman’s head today.

3 years 11 months ago

The thing that’s getting me is this doesn’t seem like Cashman’s personality. When has he been this open before? He’s not exactly Ozzie Guillen.

johnsilver
3 years 11 months ago

How funny on Guillen, but got a feeling if Guillen somehow EVER managed to con someone into hiring him as a GM, he would continue spouting irrelevance rather than at least something to do with deals and moves like Cash has been.

Phillies_Aces35
3 years 11 months ago

He was open about the Arod deal wasn’t he? I don’t remember him being this outspoken though.

I think Cashman is a good GM and I’m sure he’s a decent guy… He’s just making me scratch my head today.

wrecky1
3 years 11 months ago

Actually, if you follow the Yankees with any consistency, you will know that Cashman has always been quite outspoken.  His peers agree that he is one of the best GM’s in all of baseball.  Just see recent quotes from Dave Dombrowski (Tigers), Kevin Towers (Padres, Diamondbacks), Theo Epstein (Red Sox), and Kenny Williams (White Sox).  Cashman is about as much of a straight shooter as you are going to get in this business.  I applaud his candor and honesty regarding his dealings.  He is a smart enough guy, so I’m sure he knew he would get some backlash for these recent comments.  And honestly, there is nothing wrong with what he said.  He thought Gardner was more valuable to Yanks than Crawford because he is cheaper and a better defender.  He is correct.  He thought Montero was the best prospect that potentially changed hands among all the Lee trades.  So far he is correct on that.  Time will tell, but so far so good.

jammin502
3 years 11 months ago

Sure hope the Cubs don’t go after Cashman, he seems quite unprofessional after these comments.  I think that he should stay with the shady organization that he is already in!

wrecky1
3 years 11 months ago

Yea, cause the Cubs are the opitomy of a successful franchise. 

wrecky1
3 years 11 months ago

Yea, the Cubs are such a classy and successful franchise.  They couldn’t possibly want or need Cashman because he divulged what everyone already knew, the Yanks never really wanted or needed Crawford.  Enjoy rooting for the biggest failure of a franchise in all of sports.

dapoktan
3 years 11 months ago

this.

wrecky1
3 years 11 months ago

Cashman is probably pissed everyone kept crapping on him all offseason and comparing how Theo was better.  Now that the opposite is true, he is expousing his true feelings.  I agree with him.  He got and gets a lot of crap in a lose/lose situation.  When he succeeds, people say it is because of payroll.  When he fails, people say he stinks because he has such a high payroll.  Good for him for shooting his mouth off.  His team has made the playoffs 16 of 17 years regardless of payroll.  On a side note, ask the Dodgers, Cubs, Mets, White Sox, Orioles how many times they made the playoffs with high payrolls…

notsureifsrs
3 years 11 months ago

great example of reading your bias into something. cashman:

What I said was accurate: The Red Sox had a great winter, and I had a bad winter. But as it turned out, I had a better winter than anybody would’ve expected, including myself.he’s not boasting about how he knew his moves were brilliant all along; he’s acknowledging it turned way better than even he expected it wouldthere’s something to be said for him wanting to prove himself, but probably just to his own meddling overseers in the new york front office – the ones who forced the soriano signing and probably drive him nuts every offseason. his contract is up and they’d be foolish to let him go

dapoktan
3 years 11 months ago

cashman and yankee managers never get credit, but the underdog red sox gm and manager’s get to be media’s darling year in and year out.  How is the market and team given to the gm and manager in boston inferior to the yankees?

notsureifsrs
3 years 11 months ago

how is the boston market inferior to the new york market? notsureifsrs

MattCMoore
3 years 11 months ago

Am I the only one who dont understand your name?

Yankees420
3 years 11 months ago

It took me a while too.  Guess why?

YanksFanSince78
3 years 11 months ago

I’m sure you would agree that Boston and NY are not dramatically different from a baseball income standpoint.

notsureifsrs
3 years 11 months ago

???

revenue

BOS $427M
NYY $272M

franchise value

BOS $912M
NYY $1.7B

mind you, that’s despite the fact that the yankees already share the new york market with the mets

3 years 11 months ago

Except the mets are the laughing stock of the town and irrelevant just like the A’s in the bay area.

notsureifsrs
3 years 11 months ago

revenue

NYM $233M (6th)

franchise value

NYM $747M (5th)

MattCMoore
3 years 11 months ago

How is the Crawford deal “The biggest failure of a franchise in all sports” he has been a really good player for like 10 years and still has like 500 more years on this contract. He could be a all star every other year. We dont know yet…

3 years 11 months ago

Forget all that–It was signed in the same offseason as Werth’s contract, which not only looks terrible now, but made no sense when it was signed. And it was signed before the Crawford deal.

3 years 11 months ago

That being said…. Its far too soon to say what the better deal was….lets revisit this in 5 yrs.

Guest
3 years 11 months ago

Jesus Montero has only been in the big leagues for like 2 weeks. Even Justin Smoak had a torrid April w/ a .284/.393/.527 slash line. His problem has been that he hasn’t made adjustments to the league after the league adjusted to him. How is Montero going to adjust once the league catches up to him? He has looked very good in two weeks, but calling him a future star and writing Smoak completely off is a little premature
 
And on top of that, why does it even matter? Hindsight is bliss. Smoak was ranked roughly like 10 spots behind Montero in most rankings at the time of the deal, which is really a negligible difference and probably attributed to Montero’s perceived value as a catcher. Which he’s not. Smoak was and still is a very good prospect with a lot of potential. It’s not like they took Beavan as the centerpiece or something
 
Oh and btw, after checking the stats, I discovered Smoak has very quietly been hitting .353/.411/.490 this month with a pair of bombs in 50 ab’s. And that’s while playing half his games at Safeco Field. That doesn’t look like crappy production to me

3 years 11 months ago

I think you’re being unfair about a couple of things: 1) The people who make those prospect lists and ranked Montero higher, none of them ever thought Montero was going to be a catcher in the big leagues, so it’s unfair to attribute the ranking difference to that. Law, Callis, Goldstein. 2) You act like people prefer Montero based solely on his tiny big league sample. It’s not true. Smoak has never really starred at a level he was young for, whereas Montero has been a star at every level when you take into account age relative to league, which is one of the best indicators of future stardom. None of this means I don’t like Smoak or don’t think he can be a star himself, but I think Montero is a safer prospect with better upside and thought so at the time of the trade, too.

Guest
3 years 11 months ago

Fair point on Montero’s ranking. I still think the difference in their rankings at the time is negligible though. If Montero was the #3 overall prospect at the time (which w/o looking is what I think he was), and Smoak was down in like the 50s or something then that’s one thing. But I think Smoak was ranked like 10th, right? Or something really high. And if you want to compare their production in lower levels then I think you have to consider Smoak’s college production as well. He barely spent over one year in the minors while Montero had the benefit of several years in the minors to provide a point of reference. Plus, IMO I think the Rangers rushed him a little out of necessity…which definitely didn’t do him any favors in his development.

I’m not trying to rain on Yankees’ fans parade or hate on Montero, because he seems like a great kid. I’m just trying to add a little perspective because I don’t think the gap between the two is nearly as wide as people are acting like, including Cashman. Smoak is still a really good prospect, even if he’s not officially a prospect anymore

3 years 11 months ago

All fair points. Funny considering all the hype about his start to the majors, but I think the gap may have been wider last year, considering Montero was even younger and had an even better minor league track record, and Smoak had yet to have any successful stretches in the majors.

NYPOTENCE
3 years 11 months ago

Montero is a freaking beast!!! I mean yes he does strike out but this bat is special. If you’re telling me Smoak is going to be better I cannot believe you. Smoak’s ceiling is a poorman’s Mark Teixeira. Montero’s upside, definitely Miguel Cabrera. Future yankee bomber.

3 years 11 months ago

“definitely Miguel Cabrera” Oh wow, I needed a good laugh.

YanksFanSince78
3 years 11 months ago

Montero looks good and I think will become better once he learns not to dive for balls a ft off the plate but please…….let’s not herald him a god yet. I keep having flashbacks of Bam Bam Meulens. Let’s let him go at his own pace.

3 years 11 months ago

It’s baseball. Nobody’s definitely anything until they’re actually anything. And I say that as someone who strongly argues Montero over Smoak.

3 years 11 months ago

Montero is the most overrated prospect since jabba the hut chamberlain.  That comes as no surprise though considering yankees prospects are always insanely overrated.  I like montero and think he has a legit future in the majors but all the idiots calling him a “star” need to stop talking.  Montero is an intriguing talent but as of now he’s a galoot DH that has done nothing but be insanely hyped.  Give it a rest until he actually proves something instead of fawning over him just because he’s a yankee prospect.

YanksFanSince78
3 years 11 months ago

So he’s overrated despite the fact that he’s barely 15 games into his career?

And yes, Yankee prospects are all underated. Like…… Ian kennedy? Like Melky Cabrera? Like Brett Gardner? Like Phil Hughes? Like Cano? Like David Robertson? Oh wait….most of those guys weren’t even top 100 prospects. Hughes was a top 10 and so far has been decent. IPK was barely a top 50 and he has an FIP around 3.00 and 20 wins this season. Right…..ALL Yankee prospects are overrated and we’ll just overlook the Jeff Clements, Marc Newfields and Brandon Woods of the world right?

JustPlainMADD
3 years 11 months ago

” we’ll just overlook the Jeff Clements, Marc Newfields and Brandon Woods of the world right?”

Why stop there…  Morrow, Josh Fields, Phillippe Aumont….

Just for the record Brandon Wood??s never played for the Mariners. Drafted by Angels.

Marc Newfield WOW!! had to dig in the archives for that one. #6 overall in 1990 heck that was back before they ever had a winning season (1991)

As for Jeff Clement, Brandon Morrow, Phillippe Aumont, and even Josh Fields… They were drafted during the Bill Bavasi Admin.  Picking on the short comings of a truly tragic time in Mariner History is just low.  Its like calling double dribble on a mentally handicapped kid.  How can you really try using Bavasi’s decision making to compare to Cashman.  I think it could be argued that the only smart decision Bavasi made during his time with the M’s was signing Pineda… and even that should be credited to someone else.

Not to sound like a broken record but time will only tell if JZ’s decision to go with Smoak over Montero was the right choice.  But what the M’s saw at the time of the trade was an up and coming First baseman who could hit from both sides of the plate, and a guy who most likely will be a DH who could hit a ton.  And DH is not a priority position you trade for when you have a ton of position holes on your team.

Phillies_Aces35
3 years 11 months ago

He has every right to be vocal about his team and his decisions… Does that make it an intelligent thing to do?

If he wants the credit, that’s fine, but generally, most General Managers let the product on the field do the talking for them. Which, the Yankees did, in my opinion. This one one of Cashman’s finest years as the GM.

YanksFanSince78
3 years 11 months ago

Have no idea what you’re reading.  How in the world did he “let” Pettitte go? If by offering him a raise from his $11.75 mil contract from 2010 and telling him to take his time, talk it over with the fam and we will wait for you is letting hm go then I don’t know what to say. Pettitte simply didn’t WANT to return. 

notsureifsrs
3 years 11 months ago

touche. i may get paid while i comment, but not for them. it’s probably pretty hard to keep your mouth shut in the crazy media environment that is NY while the stupid sports commentary about your job performance flows free at all times

notsureifsrs
3 years 11 months ago

montero’s at least as advanced with the bat as smoak but he’s three years younger. he’s not a catcher, but if he can match justin’s average defense at first and sit behind the plate a few times a year, he’s likely to be way more valuable than smoak (and i like smoak)

3 years 11 months ago

Smoak has been a lousy defensive first baseman and hasn’t hit, plus he’s older. I haven’t given up on Smoak, but both the upside and likelihood of reaching it are so much higher on Montero’s bat that it takes an awful lot of first base defense to make that up.

Phillies_Aces35
3 years 11 months ago

It just comes down to your preference. Right now Justin Smoak = Jesus Montero. 10 years from now is when we’ll know who the better player is. Some guys are late bloomers while others fade away.

Arguing which is better at this point is silly.

YanksFanSince78
3 years 11 months ago

I will let the players play speak for itself and revisit this conversation in years to come but how can you declare Smoak > Montero? Based off of???????

Want to know something wildly ironic????

Smoak’s WAR in 446 PA is 0.7

(in a gentle whisper)

Montero’s in only 54 PA is 0.4………ssshhhhhh… let the sleepless in Seattle continue to sleep. 

wrecky1
3 years 11 months ago

He’s crying over spilled milk and the fact that he is an M’s fan.  A franchise doomed for failure much like every other Seattle team.  How are those Supersonics doing?  Oh yea, they left cause Seattle stinks…

YanksFanSince78
3 years 11 months ago

as do I……as do I.

-timmy lincecum

YanksFanSince78
3 years 11 months ago

Hmmmm………when you have 6 losing streaks of 5 games or more it’s kind of hard to say they aren’t bad. Turn those 17 losses into 17 wins (not in a row) and they would still be a mediocre 83-73 right now. 17 losses is “flukey” I guess but even it were broken up by a few wins they are still bad.

YanksFanSince78
3 years 11 months ago

How did he “get” the Nats to overpay for Werth? The Nats did that all by themselves. Not like it was a trade or they put a gun to the GMs head right?

3 years 11 months ago

Because of that losing streak we dealt away Fister and Bedard and brought up a lot of prospects for tryouts for next year. We haven’t done half bad.

I can see the Mariners being .500 in 2012 and getting better from then. Carp will hit 25 homers.

3 years 11 months ago

smug much? you and Ian O’Connor should go out on a date.

spokaneman
3 years 11 months ago

OH YEA HOW’D JAY BUHNER WORK OUT LOL

….felt like that’s where this was headed.

Yankees420
3 years 11 months ago

I heard that Pettitte came to Cashman and told him that retirement would sign him for life (@ 15MM per year of course) and Cashman couldn’t compete… :/

Yankees420
3 years 11 months ago

“let the sleepless in Seattle continue to sleep”

Come again?