Latest On Ryan Dempster

11:05pm: The Cubs are asking the Dodgers for minor league pitcher Allen Webster as the centerpiece of a Dempster trade, reports Morosi (Twitter link).

6:55pm: It's possible that the Dodgers could acquire Dempster from the Cubs without having to surrender Lee, a source tells Jon Paul Morosi of FOXSports.com (Twitter link).

5:34pm: The Dodgers are holding out on including pitching prospect Zach Lee in a potential Dempster trade, sources tell Danny Knobler of CBSSports.com (Twitter link).

4:20pm: The Cubs are talking to the Dodgers about Dempster again, Jon Heyman of CBSSports.com reports.

3:26pm: Dempster told reporters, including Doug Padilla of ESPNChicago.com, that he's taking his time to weigh his options (Twitter link). He plans to pitch for the Cubs tomorrow. "I have a pretty good idea of where I want to go," Dempster said, according to Paul Sullivan of the Chicago Tribune (on Twitter). 

1:37pm: The status of the possible Braves-Cubs deal should be resolved "shortly," ESPN.com's Jayson Stark reports (on Twitter). The Cubs continue talking to the Braves and the Dodgers.

12:43pm: Dempster doesn’t want to be traded to the Braves right now, Ken Rosenthal of FOX Sports reports. Instead, the right-hander hopes to be dealt to the Dodgers. While the Dodgers had interest in Dempster and were considered by some to be the favorites to acquire him, they didn’t reach an agreement with the Cubs. Chicago would lose leverage with the Dodgers if Dempster rejects a trade to the Braves, his second choice. 

TUESDAY, 9:05am: Dempster has given preliminary indications that he'd accept a trade to the Braves, ESPN.com's Jerry Crasnick reports (Twitter links). However, Dempster felt blindsided when news of the proposed deal leaked before the Cubs reached him.

MONDAY, 6:20pm: Jon Heyman of CBS Sports writes that Dempster to the Braves now has a 50-50 chance of happening. 

3:30pm: The teams are awaiting Dempster's approval, Bob Nightengale of USA Today reports (on Twitter).

2:57pm: Dempster is in the Cubs' clubhouse preparing for tonight's game in Pittsburgh, according to reporters, including Paul Sullivan of the Chicago Tribune (on Twitter). He declined to discuss today's developments, Doug Padilla of ESPNChicago.com reports (on Twitter).

Ken Rosenthal of FOX Sports suggests the clubs could have an agreement or near-agreement (Twitter links). Convincing Dempster to accept the trade may be the final obstacle.

2:38pm: The Cubs haven't received Dempster's permission to complete a trade, David Kaplan of CSNChicago reports (on Twitter). "There is no trade," Dempster tweets via his foundation. "Don't know where this info came from!" Meanwhile, Goldstein hears that the deal is not done, but acknowledges that it might simply be delayed while MLB considers the financial side of the transaction (Twitter link).

1:51pm: Randall Delgado will be in the trade if it's completed, ESPN.com's Keith Law reports (on Twitter). The sides will also find a way to balance the money.

Delgado, 22, has started 17 games for the Braves this year, posting a 4.42 ERA with 7.2 K/9 and 4.1 BB/9 in 91 2/3 innings. The right-hander entered the season as the 46th-best prospect in MLB, according to Baseball America. His average fastball checks in at 92 mph, according to FanGraphs. Delgado has a ceiling as a number three starter in the Major Leagues, Kevin Goldstein of Baseball Prospectus writes (on Twitter).

1:22pm: The Braves and Cubs have agreed to a trade that will send Ryan Dempster to Atlanta, Mark Bowman of MLB.com reports (on Twitter). The right-hander can veto any trade, but he is not likely to demand an extension in order to approve the deal, according to Jon Heyman. Randall Delgado could be going to Chicago in the deal, Bowman adds.

Ryan Dempster – Cubs (PW)" src="http://rotoauthority.blogs.com/.a/6a00d834515b9a69e2017616a6a38b970c-250wi" alt="Ryan Dempster – Cubs (PW)" />

Dempster, 35, has an NL-best 2.11 ERA with 7.1 K/9 and 2.5 BB/9 in 98 innings for the Cubs this year. He earns $14MM in 2012 — more than $5.5MM between now and the end of the season — but the Cubs are said to be willing to absorb salary to facilitate a deal.

The Braves won't be able to obtain draft pick compensation for Dempster even if he signs elsewhere after the season. In other words, he's strictly a rental unless the sides reach an extension between now and the end of the season. The Braves believe they'd have a good shot at re-signing Dempster, David O'Brien of the Atlanta Journal-Constitution reports (on Twitter). The Cubs would have been able to obtain one compensatory selection for losing Dempster if they had kept him for the remainder of the season and made him a qualifying offer.

Braves starters have combined for a 4.34 ERA with 7.0 K/9 and 3.4 BB/9 so far this year. The team's rotation currently consists of Tim HudsonTommy HansonMike MinorJair Jurrjens and newcomer Ben SheetsBrandon Beachy and Arodys Vizcaino are out for the season with Tommy John surgery, which diminished the organization's internal options.

Jon Heyman of CBSSports.com first reported that the Braves were nearing a deal for Dempster after David O'Brien first reported the Braves were nearing a deal for a starter. Photo courtesy of US Presswire.


596 Responses to Latest On Ryan Dempster Leave a Reply

  1. JoeCroninAndRonSanto 3 years ago

    Cubs fan here, and a fan of men staying true to their words. If he doesn’t bring in a good return, whatever that be for the front office, limit his starts and let the youngsters develop. Our goal for the next two months should be to develop players and get the top pick of 2013 draft. I’m old compared to most of you guys and have seen the players’ paychecks go from thousands to millions, but many have lost integrity. There are only a few of the old school guys left like Chipper, Ichiro, Youkilis, Hudson, Maddux (only retired 3 seasons ago), Ripken Jr (yeah I know he’s retired too), Berkman, etc. hell even put Gil Meche in the list.

  2. nah we keep Webster take Magill and some lower level prospects deal? THEO 😉

  3. thegrayrace 3 years ago

    Webster is a solid pickup for the Cubs. He may not be as exciting as Zach Lee, but he’s closer to major league ready and I think could be a solid middle of rotation starter. If its between hanging on to Dempster for the draft pick and getting Webster plus a mid-level prospect or two, the Cubs are better off taking Webster and a couple prospects.

    • Cubstein 3 years ago

      We better get Reed and Webster if zach lee is not involved. Go through Epsteins draft picks of years past. He easily averages a top 50 prospect with his picks.

  4. Gumby65 3 years ago

    Doyers get Hanley. A slight wrinkle in all this.

  5. tommyhilfigure 3 years ago

    dempsters been a great cub – the hate for him is unwarranted – he has earned the right to have input into this trade.

  6. RHova87 3 years ago

    If Dempster really wants to come back to the Cubs after the season then he would be smart to go to Atlanta allowing the Cubs to get a MUCH BETTER return than they could ever get from the Dodgers for him…By the way did the Dodgers seriously just get Hanley for a bag of balls?

    • Cubstein 3 years ago

      Dodgers are accepting all of the payrolls. Guys aren’t worth that much if the team doesn’t pay the salary.

  7. Frank Wren said deal with Dempster “highly unlikely”. Braves had paramaters that expired yesterday

  8. soxin10 3 years ago

    Is there going to be a special 60 minute episode of “the announcement”

  9. Bob Jeffries 3 years ago

    I can’t see why he doesnt want to go to atlanta he knows the GM and manager, was his 2nd choice, and its only going to be for 3 months

  10. cubs223425 3 years ago

    Hey, it’s not like they’re hurting for pitching prospects. Delgado was pitching like garbage, and they need to keep pace with the Nationals. It makes perfect sense to trade a struggling guy when you’re trying to win now.
    Personally, I’m not a fan of Delgado’s, but if they can send him to AAA and get him fixed, it should work out well for both sides.

  11. pitching like garbage? he just went 6, giving up 2 runs? how in the world is that garbage?

  12. Defiancy 3 years ago

    Oh he did? Because it’s still unconfirmed. All it says is he COULD be going.

  13. Defiancy 3 years ago

    I like how, what I said was right, and what you said was completely wrong. :)

  14. Philip Marlowe 3 years ago

    Yeah I know, but still, anything can happen. I didn’t see the Cardinals winning it all last year…

  15. slider32 3 years ago

    I would bet on the Angels or Rangers!

  16. cubs223425 3 years ago

    Yeah, I know one start totally merits ignoring the body of work. In his 3 starts before that, his FIPs were 4.57 against the Cubs, 4.82 against the Nationals, and 8.32 against the Red Sox. On the seaso, Delgado is pitching to a 4.42 FIP and 4.11 FIP. Last season, his 7 majors starts were good for a 5.14 FIP and -0.1 WAR. His 2011 AAA stint resulted in 4.15 ERA and 4.82 FIP over 4 starts, and his 21 AA starts that season led to an uninspiring 3.84 ERA and 3.82 FIP.

    So we see that he’s a decent pitcher if he is in AA. Above that, he has struggled to perform well. These last 2 starts of his resulted in his first back-to-back quality starts this season, and he barely reached that (6 IP each time, 5 ER, meaning a passable 3.75 ERA).

    He’s pitched into the 8th inning just twice (against a hurt Phillies offense early in the season and a reeling Orioles offense about a month ago). He’s 22 and has PLENTY of potential and room to improve, but right now, he’s a struggling, young pitcher who needs to find a way to both pitch better and pitch deeper into games.

  17. esasc4 3 years ago

    no, its confirmed we lost delgado for 10 starts of dempster, god what dumb move!.

  18. Nah hes going

  19. Jim C 3 years ago

    Great picture haha but yeah I too think the Phillies are just having a down year and when these contracts come off the books and they trade away some if the other guys they’ll be fine, they’re still a big market team

  20. MaineSox 3 years ago

    Both teams are currently in serious talks with the pitchers about extensions.

  21. vacommish 3 years ago

    I agree. Look for a bench piece and some $ to be added by Chicago. The Braves front office has a pretty good track record on their deals, so it is hard to argue their logic.

  22. did anyone even see the Cardinals making the playoffs with a week left last year?

  23. Defiancy 3 years ago

    Obviously written after I wrote that, horrible trade, just horrible.

  24. Defiancy 3 years ago

    Oh is he now? Ahahahah

  25. Lunchbox45 3 years ago

    do i know you?

  26. I dont think that its an egregious trade but I am impressed by the Cubs haul. This could very well come back to haunt the Braves but lets be realistic when evaluating Delgado.

  27. Braves Fan 85
    Braves2014Champs 3 years ago

    also in reply ito Jim above…how do u see the phillies with resources? obviously the are uaving a down year, but their top 2 players came up in their prime (utley , howard) and howard is owed25mil for another 5 years. their top two pitchers are making a bunch of money and are in their 30s…they overpaid for a shortstop also declining and paid out a ton of money for a closer…they also traded away all their prospects for some said players plus others…the phils (without hamels) have about 100 mil owed to 4(?) players for the next 4 years and no young players to bring up or trade…i hardly see them with resources or doing anything in the next decade except rebuilding

  28. johnsilver 3 years ago

    They have some serious contracts in the way to move 1st and they always seem to have to add yet another immoveable one for some reason each off season.

  29. Adam Roy 3 years ago

    MLBTR gets their info from ken rosenthal, among many other sources

  30. WisBrave 3 years ago

    Wrong holiday, trick or treat. Happy Halloween !!

  31. its July the 4th, and Dempster is the Grand Finale you shelled out major dough for – only to get a dud.

  32. Red_Line_9 3 years ago

    Probably time to put Jeff Blauser in the rearview for ya :) But, yeah…that tells you how far back getting bad deals goes…when you can mention a handful of players who are now coaches….

  33. WrigleyTerror37 3 years ago

    they probably didnt ask him yet, Jed will be giving him a call after the cubs and braves figure out how much money is going to be eaten. also i rember dempster saying he will only approve a trade if it improves the cubs

  34. Natsfan89 3 years ago

    Of course they will. I didn’t say they wouldn’t.

  35. WisBrave 3 years ago

    next is thinking/thought about acquiring and tried to acquire. Then ends with didn’t acquire.

  36. hiflyer000 3 years ago

    Rollins is on pace to earn nearly half his contract this year alone, and even if he regresses more than normal he will easily earn it plus some. His contract was a bargain, I don’t know why so many people seem to think its so horrible.

  37. Dempster isn’t scheduled to start until Wednesday.

  38. marinest21 3 years ago

    that doesn’t mean completely shutting him down however. they could plan out his starts for the rest of the year and have him finish at 180/enter the postseason at 160-165.

  39. ultimaparadox 3 years ago

    Well as I stated the only way for the Braves to make this trade worse is to extend a 35 year old pitcher on a career year.

  40. johnsilver 3 years ago

    About Dempster.. Did u catch this on WEEI around 4pm?

    “According to a major league source, the Red Sox talked to the Cubs about
    the availability of right-hander Ryan Dempster but “never
    engaged”
    Chicago in a concerted effort to acquire the pitcher”

    And also:

    “the Red Sox likely would not have come close to moving one of their top
    pitching prospects to come close to what Atlanta seemingly embraced as a
    worthwhile acquisition cost.”

    What we have been saying for over a week… :-)

  41. 14 Rocks 3 years ago

    As a Braves fan I wanted Greinke.

  42. nm344 3 years ago

    maybe you should look again

  43. No, Dempster is a free agent after this season.

    -C

  44. 14 Rocks 3 years ago

    Gartrell? He is a minor league filler player. Any team could have him if they wanted him. Also, since Greinke is a rental he would only cost one of the top three pitchers (probably Teheran) as well as a couple of other lesser prospects.
    The Braves need an ace to compete with the Nationals. They don’t need an old guy like Dempster.

  45. stl_cards16 3 years ago

    You do realize where you are, right? MLBTR wasn’t built on facts.

  46. Duh. It is obvious there was a lot of “basis in fact!” The deal is/was in place, but Dempster was ticked that he was one of the last to know. That is all that seems to be holding it up.
    In this age of rapid communication all parties should be aware that such things will happen. As a Braves fan I am very concerned about how thin skinned and overly concerned Dempster is over the leak. He is obviously pitching over his head right now and that bubble could burst in an instant. If he is not thrilled and 100% behind a move to Atlanta, I hope it falls through!

  47. That is assuming Dempster continues pitching like he has for the past 30 days , and not like he has for the past 10 years. Otherwise we might as well have kept Lowe!

  48. Cosmo3 3 years ago

    Wrong. Just, wrong.

  49. Delgado won’t even make the rotation next year.

    Next year’s rotation will be Hanson, Hudson, Sheets, Minor and Teheran most likely. They could also re-sign Dempster, make a run at Greinke. They also have Jurrjens. They also have Beachy and Viscaino back at some point next year after Tommy John Surgery.

    They’ve got a stable of arms that they can’t get every one of them playing time. We’re not mortgaging the future at all in this type of deal. We can “win now” and still win in the future with this type of deal.

  50. Says a Cubs/Dempster fan.

  51. Sheets? Are you serious? Based on a couple of decent starts? The guy was on the scrap heap to begin the season!

    Minor is no more a slam dunk than Delgado this season, and Teheran is as much of a question mark at this point as both of them.

    Beachy and Viscaino are big question marks until they successfully return!

    I love Huddy but he is getting older by the minute, Jurrjens might get it back but who knows, and the Braves are never aggressive in the free agent market! I also have no interest at all in signing, (or extending) a 35 year old Dempster. (sounds like Lowe 2?)

    If anything you supported MY argument!

  52. ultimaparadox 3 years ago

    Counting on Sheets lasting this year, and making next year’s rotation… assuming they resign him is quite a reach. It would seem likely that Delgado would be in the rotation you have mentioned at least until Beachy recovers. Of course he will have an innings limit recovering from TJ.

    Dempster is basically a 2 month rental, unless he takes a huge discount to stay with the Braves. I just dont see any reason to resign a 35 year old off a career year.

  53. Ryman5000 3 years ago

    He’s got a lot of things going on outside of baseball that he needs time to prepare for with such a move, such as his daughter, who needs constant medical attention around the clock. Theo also told Dempster that he would keep him informed of any possible deals. Dempster has every right to feel slighted, and I think he’ll accept the trade, but he wants to get all of his ducks in a row first.

  54. rundmc1981 3 years ago

    I wanted Greinke too, but not at that price, especially not knowing if Greinke would (sign/re-sign) though he’s expressed that he would want to pitch in ATL. That guy seems too scattershot for us to do a deal involving that much talent (and money).

  55. Dodgersarelife 3 years ago

    He isn’t going to accept a trade thats the point. Now you forget getting Lee, Reed and Gould for Garza too.

  56. DK8 3 years ago

    No, the Cubs did not give him a NTC. He has 10 and 5 rights which come from the CBA.

  57. TimotheusATL 3 years ago

    he’s 10/5 anyway.

  58. Not true. He has 10/5 rights from MLB.

  59. WrigleyTerror37 3 years ago

    correction, Jim Henry gave him a No trade Clause so its his fault!

  60. Exactly. A big reason why he prefers the Dodgers is the location of their Spring Training facility. Dempster has a house in AZ and lives there in the off-season. With the health issues of his daughter, he wants to be able to be close to home as much as possible. A team that trains in Florida is going to be less attractive than the AZ based ones. As for informing him of the trade, he has 10 & 5 rights, so he has to sign off on any trade.

  61. TimotheusATL 3 years ago

    greinke also makes more sense for the braves because of the type of pitcher he is. i’d take a strikeout guy over a groundball guy with atlanta’s infield defense any day of the week.

    also, the braves are at a point where it’s okay to cough up some premium arms to get a quality front line starter. they have another delgado in teheran, and they have another minor in gilmartin.

  62. rundmc1981 3 years ago

    Who cares where Sheets was? It’s more relevant that the man was the ace of his staff in MIL and a 3-time All-Star. It’s not like he picked up a ball 3 years ago…he’s had some injury problems and right now we’re going to ride him until there’s nothing left. There’s something left in the tank, so we need to milk it for whatever it’s worth. In a season that’s seen RA Dickey, of all people, as the best 1st-half starter, there’s no reason to think Sheets can be one of the most effective arms going forward in a playoff hunt.

  63. Braves95 3 years ago

    I think we should go all in for Greinke

  64. ThinkBlue10 3 years ago

    Was that a knock on the Dodgers? Last time I checked the Braves are a second place team and behind the Dodgers in the wild card standings….

  65. DempseyK 3 years ago

    I completely agree, I hate the new Disqus system being used. You can no longer read things in a chronological order and it has annoyed me enough to actually comment less and use the website far less in general. PLEASE go back to the old Disqus where people can actually discuss things amongst the community without getting confused or angered.

  66. Ryman5000 3 years ago

    You know you can sort the comments, right? You can choose to sort by best, which takes rating into account, newest, or oldest. It’s under the ‘Discussion tab’ right above the top comment.

  67. tomymogo 3 years ago

    You saw what Bowman said Brewers wanted for Greinke from Atlanta? Randall Delgado, Julio Teheran, and Edward Salcedo, for 2 month’s of Greinke, no way I do that

  68. Whitey_83 3 years ago

    I’d rather get nothing than give up what the Brewers are asking for Greinke. It’s too much, and there’s no way they’ll do it.

  69. erm016 3 years ago

    If they could extend him for 5+ years, I’d do it. But I’d personally rather throw in Minor vs Teheran.

  70. WisBrave 3 years ago

    Who do the Brewers think he is King Felix?

  71. WisBrave 3 years ago

    No surprise, hopefully Braves find a deal elsewhere.

  72. BraveCrowe 3 years ago

    It is nice to see someone to look at the whole picture. I am really tired myself of the “Frank Wren is garbage” nonsense we see all the time. Not only is the team seat up to compete now, we have pieces to compete for the next seven years…a lot of that has to do with…oh my god…Frank Wren.

  73. cjones1348 3 years ago

    The Braves are far from being one of Liberty’s biggest assets.

  74. Whitey_83 3 years ago

    Do a little more research. Mark Bowman and Capitol Avenue Club have both given us some ideas of what the Brewers are asking, not to mention it is common knowledge that Milwaukee’s asking price has been considered extremely high by pretty much everybody who has talked to them about Greinke.

  75. erm016 3 years ago

    There’s nothing wrong with FW. His cards are never really played until it’s official either.

  76. DK8 3 years ago

    I’d be surprised if it takes more than Teheran (or Shelby Miller, or Mike Olt) + a couple guys farther that are all projection. Think about it this way: 1) Greinke is going to compare himself to Matt Cain, and Cain got $117 million. Greinke may not get that, but it’s going to be close.
    2) Milwaukee probably can’t afford that contract, so these rumors about them keeping Greinke are likely smokescreens.
    3) The alternative is to make a qualifying offer and get 1 draft pick in next year’s draft which will be in the early 30s. Randall Delgado, for example, is 22 is currently worth more than that because of his proximity to the majors and moderately high ceiling. So these “we’ll just hold him and take the comp pick” threats are not going to fly.

    The Brewers will be lucky if they get one elite prospect and some filler.

  77. baseball52 3 years ago

    He played his way into a high trade value to net the Cubs a great return and has absolutely earned every right to use his no trade rights. Dempster has been nothing short of amazing to the organization and to the city and no Cubs fans have the right to criticize him choosing where he wants to go, especially because it’s one of his last shots at a ring.

  78. BlueSkyLA
    BlueSkyLA 3 years ago

    Sure beats trying to explain why it’s a bad deal. For whom, and why? Give it a try, shouldn’t be too painful.

  79. BlueSkyLA
    BlueSkyLA 3 years ago

    You might start by explaining how Ryan Dempster is not an “old guy.” A little refresher: The Cubs covet Lee, and they are clearly not going to get him for Dempster alone. Harang is actually out-pitching Garza at this point, and his contract is very reasonable. He, like Garza, is under team control through next season. One top prospect and one drop-in replacement. And you think they’re going to get a better offer? In who’s dreams?

  80. Mike C. 3 years ago

    Or spends two more months in Chicago and leaves as a free agent. Not like he is trapped beyond 2012 in Chicago.

  81. BlueSkyLA
    BlueSkyLA 3 years ago

    Depends on how much the Cubs want Lee. From what we’ve heard, the deal with the Dodgers would have happened already if they’d offered Lee, so it sounds like they want him or someone of his potential level badly enough. The Dodgers don’t seem to think two months of Dempster is worth one of their top pitching prospects, and I can understand why. I’m sure the Cubs would be happy to hang onto the old guy if they were competitive this year, and/or he wasn’t about to become a free agent. (Might also take someone else in the mix, but not a top-level prospect.)

  82. sourbob 3 years ago

    This is really not hard to understand and I have no idea why that guy needed you to explain it. I applaud you for limiting yourself mild to moderate sarcasm in reaction to a situation that provokes a fairly righteous facepalm.

  83. baseball52 3 years ago

    I’m more likely to believe that he didn’t want to go the Braves and that this whole second choice stuff was bunk. Everything that comes out of the press is not true.

  84. DK8 3 years ago

    If it’s about getting a ring, the Dodgers are the wrong choice.

  85. Karkat 3 years ago

    Honestly, I can’t stand no-trade clauses. When you are making Literally Millions of dollars playing baseball you shouldn’t get that kind of control over where, specifically, it comes from.

  86. sourbob 3 years ago

    This is a fairly reasonable opinion. The Harang to the Cubs idea made me hope you weren’t operating a motor vehicle.

  87. throwitback85 3 years ago

    On what planet is Aaron Harang out pitching Matt Garza? And please don’t cite wins and ERA, because I know that’s where you would like to go.

  88. cubs223425 3 years ago

    Dempster said he prefers L.A. If Epstein goes to him and flat-out tells him that the Dodgers aren’t offering fiar compensation, at least when compared to Randall Delgado, and that they won’t make a deal with them, I’d think he would surely go. As much as he likes Chicago, he is only required to leave for a few months, then he coudl resign here as a free agent, if he really wanted to.

  89. Steve Keasling 3 years ago

    Pretty simple:

    The Tigers/Marlins trade set the precedent for trading for a mid-rotation, rental SP. 2 months of A. Sanchez cost Detroit Jacob Turner. A better Ryan Dempster, the MLB ERA leader is going to command at least that, if not more.

  90. cubs223425 3 years ago

    Why is Zach Lee in the question? Zach Lee is being mentioned because the Cubs have an offer of somenoe who’s doing more than Zach Lee at a higher level, in the form of Randall Delgado. Zach Lee is on the table because something comparable in value to Zach Lee is already staring the Cubs in the face.

  91. cubs223425 3 years ago

    At the same time, they get 1.5 years of Omar infante with that and Turner’s been garbage so far.

  92. cubs223425 3 years ago

    I agree. Considering the alternative is likely a middling prospect from the Dodgers, a sandwich pick very well might be worth MORE than whatever turd the Dodgers dangle at the Cubs.

  93. gothamgator 3 years ago

    again, it’s silly to think the deal with Atlanta would be the same one that was previously on the table…

  94. BlueSkyLA
    BlueSkyLA 3 years ago

    Planet stats. Check it out.

  95. throwitback85 3 years ago

    Checked it out. Outside of home runs, I’ll give you one guess who has the better peripherals. And it’s not even close.

  96. BlueSkyLA
    BlueSkyLA 3 years ago

    Actually is pretty close, if you don’t choose only the stats you like. Harang is pitching better than most people expected and Garza isn’t exactly lighting up the universe. Not just a deal of Garza for Harang anyway but a way for the Cubs to get someone for Demspter who the Dodgers won’t give up in a straight trade. But I guess that message hasn’t gotten through to you.

  97. throwitback85 3 years ago

    I’m looking at stats used to determine a pitcher’s value, not just ones that favor Garza, and outside of HR/FB, they all do.

  98. BlueSkyLA
    BlueSkyLA 3 years ago

    The other bottom line is, if the Dodgers make a play for both (and we know they are interested), then someone has to come out of the rotation. Who else?

  99. cubs223425 3 years ago

    What? That makes no sense. Why would the deal change in 2 days? There has been no indication that the offer is no longer on the table.

  100. cubs223425 3 years ago

    Nowhere does it say that Dempster ONLY wants to go to the Dodgers. They are his FIRST choice, not his only one.

  101. sourbob 3 years ago

    I don’t disagree with that, either. However, simply because you’ve got a veteran you want to unload doesn’t mean the team you’re dealing with has any reason to want him. The Cubs are *unloading* veterans, not acquiring them.

    To put it another way… if Harang was a Cub right this minute and not a Dodger, what would Theo be looking to do with him? Trade him, obviously. He’s the kind of guy they’re sending out, not the kind of guy they’re shipping in.

  102. gothamgator 3 years ago

    Well,
    the Dodgers aren’t going to include Lee in a deal, and since they are
    seemingly the only team Dempster seems interested in at this point, if a
    deal isn’t worked out with LA, who else are the Braves bidding against?
    It became quite obvious through all of this that the Braves offer was
    significantly better than anyone else.

    From what’s out there, it seems that Delgado is not necessarily off
    the table in a potential Dempster trade, but I can’t see it being
    straight up at this point… the Cubs will have to throw in someone else
    and salary relief. And we’ve heard FW’s phone has been ringing quite a lot
    today with other team’s realizing the Braves are willing to include top prospects in a trade. Atlanta has already said they are seeking out other trade partners, so no, all indications are that the trade as it was is no longer on the table, and the Cubs can no longer just accept it… they’d have to restart the conversation.

  103. cubs223425 3 years ago

    The deal was already to be Dempster and cash for Delgado, so I’m not sure that financial relief needs to be added.
    And no, you’re 100% speculating on whether or not the deal is still there for the Cubs. You’re assuming that because they are talking to the Dodgers and others are talking to the Braves, the deal has fallen through. If Dempster says yes, I’d bet it’s still a done deal. As we’ve seen with the Orlando Magic, opposing GMs don’t like when you agree to a deal then back out.
    There’s an issue of saving face. If everyone knows you agree to deals then back out of them and ask for a better deal, they’re not going to be as likely to bring you their best offer, knowing that you’ll just up the price after you reach an agreement.

  104. BlueSkyLA
    BlueSkyLA 3 years ago

    I’m not arguing that Harang is a longterm solution for the Cubs. He isn’t a longterm solution for anyone. But then Garza isn’t really either, since he’s a year away from free agency. The argument I am making here is that the Cubs are going to need some flexibility if they want any real value in return for Dempster. Got any other suggestions? I’m not hearing any. If you think the solution is for the Cubs to hang onto Dempster for the rest of the season out of spite then color me unconvinced.

  105. sourbob 3 years ago

    This is terrible debating. So now you’re saying the Cubs either must take your aging vets or not deal Dempster at all? You’re being ridiculous.

    I find that a lot of readers of MLBTR, while bright people, are less interested in discussing realistic trade possibilities than they are rationalizing why their team should be able to get the guy they want without giving up anything they might ever miss.

    It ends up with smart people embarrassing themselves by saying things like, “Maybe the Cubs would take Aaron Harang.”

    Imagine, for example, that a Pirates fan proposed taking care of your Harang problem by giving you Kevin Correia for him. That’s actually not even as funny as Harang to Chicago, but it should give you an idea.

  106. throwitback85 3 years ago

    Garza is young and controllable. He’s a long-term solution. Harang is not. If the Atlanta deal falls through completely, chances are the Cubs deal Dempster for a package of lesser prospects, and shop Garza elsewhere. If they can’t find a suitable package for Garza, they extend him.

  107. gothamgator 3 years ago

    the thing is, the Braves are not the one that have backed away from this deal. Do you really think the talks progressed this far without some sort of assurances from Dempster to the Cubs that he would accept this deal, or from the cubs to the braves that Dempster would approve it? Either Dempster gave the Cubs management assurances that he would approve this deal or there was a massive failure in communication between him and the management. Additionally, Dempster actually said last week that his preferences were to go to the Dodgers or the Braves, indicating that he would accept a trade to Atlanta.

    Dempster publicly embarrassed the Braves organization by coming out and saying he would much rather pitch for the Dodgers, so he will not approve this deal until the last minute, and only if they are unable to complete a trade with LA. He has also said that he will pitch for the Cubs tomorrow, so that takes away a start from the team he is being traded to, thus decreasing his value. This isn’t an offseason trade, it’s a mid-season trade, and the Braves were willing to pay more to secure Dempster’s services as early as possible. So yes, I stick by my comment, the price will most definitely change, especially if he makes his start tomorrow, and it’s absolutely silly to think the same deal is on the table.

  108. gothamgator 3 years ago

    hmm, looks like I wasn’t 100% speculating…

    Frank Wren: “I said that it’s highly unlikely that we make that deal. We
    had certain parameters that expired yesterday. I’m not going to get into
    great detail on this, other than to say there were certain parameters
    for us that expired. And the Cubs were fully aware of it and
    understood.”

  109. cubs223425 3 years ago

    It was said that Dempster was surprised to learn about a deal from the media, and that he found out faster than the Cubs could tell him. And if the deal was SUCH a big win for the Cubs like people keeps saying, then you’re pretty much making the claim that the Cubs are run by a bunch of idiots who are refusing to make a great deal for no good reason if THEY are the ones who backed out.
    It was resported on this site that Dempster was willing to go to pretty much any contender, and that he was fine with the Braves. However, things change when stuff goes from conjecture to reality. Maybe he was approached about the deal, realized how far from California he would be, and decided he wasn’t as willing as he previously alluded to. There are too many unknowns to make these rumors between us any more than runors.

  110. BlueSkyLA
    BlueSkyLA 3 years ago

    Since this is pretty much the situation that seems to face the Cubs, then yes. It isn’t terrible debating, it’s a statement of the facts as they exist. Note that I proposed this idea followed by a question mark. I can understand why you think it isn’t an ideal trade for the Cubs but I haven’t seen any answer to my question either. If you think they can do better then good debating dictates that you cough it up.

  111. Wash_Williams 3 years ago

    I think it is reasonable for the Braves to move on, and if they make another deal for a pitcher and/or give up prospects no one would hold it against them if they went and canceled the Dempster deal.

    But if they pull the Dempster deal off the table and then try to lowball the Cubs on a new deal for Dempster that is a different story. GM’s will not look as kindly on Wren’s actions and rightly so. The terms were agreed pending Dempster’s acceptance. If Dempster gives the acceptance, then Braves need to honor their word. You’re not really “moving on” if you’re still trying to get Dempster. Even losing a start would not be a valid reason to cancel when the Cubs can just throw in an extra game’s worth of salary in cash which I’m sure they’d be happy to do.

    Essentially what you guys are saying is that the Braves should take back their offer because they realize now they offered too much and made a bad deal. That’s never been a legit reason to cancel the trade.

  112. gothamgator 3 years ago

    no, I’m merely saying that all indications are that Dempster’s approving the deal was presented as a done deal, leading to the idea that when the previous deal was made, it was with the idea that Dempster would be making his next start for Atlanta. As this is no longer the case, then you can be sure that the original deal is no longer in place either, as Atlanta is losing a start, and essentially a week of playing time, from the player they thought they were trading for.

    And as Nick pointed out, FW said this evening that discussions could be renewed, indicating a deal is no longer in place.

    It’s fine if Dempster changed his mind and rescinded his acceptance of a deal to Atlanta, he has the right to do that being a 10-5 guy, but it’s silly to think the deal will remain the same once he did so.

    And on your earlier “saving face” comment, it is not the Braves who would have to save face for changing the terms of the deal… It was the Cubs who came out yesterday afternoon and stated that this deal was a “fabrication” (which we all know it wasn’t, there were definitely terms of a trade in place), and then the Braves organization had to find out from a radio interview with Dempster today that he planned on starting for the Cubs tomorrow and could take “up to a week to decide”

  113. BlueSkyLA
    BlueSkyLA 3 years ago

    A misstatement of the facts. Garza is eligible for free agency after next season. Extending him will require paying free agency salary or he goes on the market. Maybe the Cubs are willing to deal Dempster for a lot less than they think he’s worth, but that’s not what we are hearing now.

  114. gothamgator 3 years ago

    no, what I’m saying is that the Cubs would likely have to throw in another player to make the deal work, as the salary relief that was already to be included was likely all of Dempster’s remaining salary anyway. And Dempster waffling on the trade is more than a legit reason to cancel the trade. The trade that was offered was for someone whoAtlanta was led to believe would make a start for them in the next couple days, not a week plus from now. By getting less time of a player, there would need to be additional compensation.

    They were led to believe that Dempster just had to rubber stamp the deal… when that didn’t happen, and they found out from a radio interview that he planned on making his next start for chicago and would take “up to a week to decide,” you better believe that the terms of the original deal are no longer in place.

  115. sourbob 3 years ago

    I’m just gonna leave you now and wish you good luck with that whole Maybe the Cubs Will Give Us Garza AND Dempster and Take Harang thing.

    I hope that the planet where you reside is safe and enjoys temperate weather.

  116. ctothed 3 years ago

    It was more than just Delgado, go read the rumors.

  117. sdsuphilip 3 years ago

    The most successful businessmen get to work whereever they want basically, the only place this is basically different? Sports

  118. baseball52 3 years ago

    Yup, because there are so many MLB caliber players. Water-Diamond paradox, look into it.

  119. BlueSkyLA
    BlueSkyLA 3 years ago

    Nice work if you can get it.

  120. JoeCroninAndRonSanto 3 years ago

    Exactly, if he accepts we will ship him off but he will be looking for a 3 year deal to finish his career. If he accepts the 12.5 million he (and his agent) must love Chicago more than money.

  121. Karkat 3 years ago

    Athletes constantly get the chance to choose where they work. It’s called free agency. It’s where the absurd amounts of money come from. I’m fine with their being like financial bonuses if traded, but no-trade clauses (at least ones that can be maybe-kinda-sorta waived) are junk.

  122. Karkat 3 years ago

    That’s not even really a paradox. Society has deemed that being in the top nth percentile in terms of baseball skill earns you millions of dollars. Good for those guys. It doesn’t have any bearing on his intrinsic value or, more to the point, his right to have *additional* privileges.

  123. baseball52 3 years ago

    I’ll try and explain this very simply. The players’ skill is a scarce commodity in a high revenue business; therefore, players with higher skill level can demand higher salaries and possibly other perks such as a no-trade clause.

    This relates to the water-diamond paradox. Said paradox explains that though we need water to live, it is much lower priced than diamonds because of the scarcity of water in relation to diamonds, which are a luxury item and have no bearing on sustaining life.

  124. cubs223425 3 years ago

    That what you speculated ended up happening doesn’t mean that it wasn’t speculation at the time.

  125. Karkat 3 years ago

    I understand the nature of the “paradox”. All I’m saying is that they *shouldn’t* have the free range of ability to mess with the trades that they currently do. Whether or not no-trade clauses are philosophically valid is beyond the scope of my complaint.

  126. gothamgator 3 years ago

    It was reported by Capitol Avenue Club yesterday afternoon.

    And read the quote again… there were “certain parameters that expired yesterday,” ie, deal was off the table when those parameters expired

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