Possible Destinations For Sabathia

the cubs certainly have enough to get sabathia. They may not be willing to give up enough to surpass other offers, but if they really want him they have enough to get him

hey redsfan, there are plenty of good prospects in the cubs system. People do want Pie, people do want Hill. Theres also vitters, cedeno, patterson, ceda, colvin, gallagher, marshall, etc.

I find it odd that when other teams rookies struggle (say Hughes and Kennedy with the Yankees) it just means they are young, but when its the Cubs prospects it means they must suck.

Just so you know, Paul Hoynes' opinions have as much weight as any that a poster here makes. The guy is not only clueless but is also disliked within the organization. He also seems to get kicks out of bad mouthing the Tribe a lot, wonder why no one on the front office talks to him.

those prospects dont SUCK but they arent good enough to get someone like CC

Hill has struggled for 2 months.. look at his overall ability. The guy was over .500 with a sub 4.00 ERA last year. Cedeno isnt a utility player at best. He is a good defensive SS with the ability to hit if given consistant at bats. If Theriot werent playing so great Cedeno would be getting a lot more at bats. Vitters was the third overall pick, so I wouldnt worry about a minor injury.

direct from Jim Callis on the ESPN chat...

Drew (FL): Jim, if you're the Cubs do you empty the farm for Sabathia if made available? If so, who would likely go in a deal?

Jim Callis: (2:17 PM ET ) I would, because I don't think the Cubs system is that loaded right now. I'd ask for Josh Vitters, Jose Ceda and a third player. Vitters and Ceda aren't tearing it up, so maybe the Cubs would bite.

The Cubs seem to be in a position where they'd be willing to offer a big package including several players, but there are a few teams that could come in with a package with a better headliner but fewer total players.

The question remains whether those teams with the better headliners would be willing to part with them.

"wow every cub fan its a huge homer ... the cubs dont have nething in their farm system to land cc"

Wow...given that fine statement, should we make any generalizations about reds fans??

Good stuff integr. I don't think that is that far off either. If the Cubs could do this without giving up Gallagher, it would be fine by me.

"If the Cubs had the goods the deal would already have been done."

Its June. That statement is completely and utterly wrong.

Can we not use Vitters in this discussion? He's nowhere near MLB ready. How often do minor leaguers with less than 100 pro ABs get put in these type of packages? And it doesn't matter where he's picked. That has absolutely no value when making a trade.

Rich Hill's 28, so he's not young and he won't be cheap for long.

Gallagher's nice, and might be a mid rotation guy.

Ceda hasn't started a game above A ball yet. He's hardly a sure thing at this point.

The thing about the Cubs is they don't have any "can't miss prospects" that other teams would really covet for this type of a deal. The best guys like Hill and Cedeno have too much experience and aren't exactly prospects anymore. The other guys are either not far enough along in their development or just not that good. I mean to me, Gallagher would be the centerpiece to any trade, and he just doesn't seem to be worthy.

Would anybody here not a Cubs fan rather have Cedeno than Carlos Gomez? I didn't think so.

Of course Ceda hasnt started a game above A ball, he isnt a starter. He is a closer in the making. Vitters could hold a load of value. Whos to say they want someone who is MLB ready? Sometimes teams want someone who will be up in 2 years when a position opens up etc. There is a limited amount of roster space, so sometimes getting a guy who wouldnt have to be on your 25 man roster yet is what you want.

Darin... As Sabinus said, Ceda is being made a reliever. He has already been told that by the Cubs. And he just made his first relief appearance in AA last night. If he continues to pitch well, you will see him in Chicago for a playoff push; a la Carlos Marmol last year.

"Rich Hill's 28, so he's not young and he won't be cheap for long."

Hill has less than 2 years service time, which means he is cheap and under control for like 4 years.

"Ceda hasn't started a game above A ball yet. He's hardly a sure thing at this point."

Ceda just got promoted to AA and will at least be in AAA next year if not make the big league club. This guy is a terrific closer prospect who throws 100mph at times. Pretty much every team would love to have him in their system.

"the cubs may not have the top prospects, but they have enough if they are willing to do it."

...yet you also have to think about the other teams needs, and that fact that "enough to get it done" for Team-A doesn’t mean it is for Team-B as well. That is the problem, finding players who will match the Indians desires from the Cubs is one of the harder things to do; they are stacked with projectables, reclamation projects and guys who have struggled while the Indians are in compete-mode now and cant take on projects like that in return for their Ace. Cubs fans can try to insist otherwise all they want, and they have been doing just that instantly in each and every thread (I imagine that is what has led to the frustration shown by RedsFan); but it still doesnt leave it making any sense for the Indians…

The Tribe just really cant take quantity of players who don’t fit their needs/desires and call it a day for one of the best pitchers in the game ~ the Tribe wants guys who can make a real difference almost instantly… The Cubs don’t really have that to offer; making it the tough fit that all the reporters and scouts say it is (well, outside possibly Hoynes, who is a complete buffoon). It would almost be better for the Tribe to take only a single prospect like LaRoche or LaPorta than to take a quantity package of players who only add to depth to what they have or are years away if they ever make it ~ hence the problem…

I live near Cleveland and I mentioned this in another post, you never know what Mark Shapiro wil do. The Indians could conceivably do this deal...

Unnamed team gets C.C.
Orioles get 4-5 high level prospects
Indians get B. Roberts and G. Sherrill.

There is nothing saying that the Indians will not accept low level talent in return. If they really feel they can still make a playof push this year and next they can take the low level talent they receive in exchange for C.C. and get MLB ready pieces from another team. People need to realize that 3rd and 4th teams can be rought in on this deal!!!

BK, that is Paul Hoynes for ya...most people in Cleveland just drown him out. I mean, we are talking about a guy who had the Indians finishing behind the Royals in the Central in 2007. As for the Indians needs, MI would be nice but only if it is low level with no MLB time since Peralta, Carbrera, and Barfield are currently there. So no go on Cedeno. In regards to 3B the need immediate help, hence all the Atkins discussion. At AA right now they have Wes Hodges who is still a year or two away, but is going absolutely nuts with the bat. Even though the Indians had a major pitching surplus the losses of Westbrook and Miller along with the impending FA of Sabathia and Byrd hurt that. So a pitcher needs to come back. Gallagher would be nice, but the rest of the pieces the Cubs have to offer don't match up. Vitters and Ceda are too far away and the Indians have players in the minors who can match up to them.

"Would Adam Dunn and Homer Bailey for Sabathia get the job done for Cleveland?"

Yes, right now.

"Unnamed team gets C.C.
Orioles get 4-5 high level prospects
Indians get B. Roberts and G. Sherrill."

I don't see 1 team giving up 4-5 high level prospects for CC. I also don't see the Indians giving up CC and a prospect for Roberts and Sherrill. It makes far more sense to add 3-4 close to ready youngsters. Also if they Indians feel they can make a playoff push it's worth the gamble to keep their ace and accept the worst case scenario of 2 draft picks.

The Indiasn do not need a mid to back of the rotation lefty. That's what Laffey, Lee, Sowers, Lewis and Huff are. Randomscrub doesn't know a single thing about the Indians roster.

Based on what I've seen, Hodges looks as good as Vitters, so far.

What about the Oakland A's if they decide to try to go for the AL West? Beane hasn't been shy in the past about taking on short-term rentals (Johnny Damon, Ray Durham, etc...) and I'm sure he'd appreciate the compensatory picks after the season ended.

Maybe a package involving Travis Buck and Huston Street?

Ceda started 12 out of 15 games in High A this season, posting a 4.80 ERA and 1.27 WHIP. He has exactly 0 saves on his pro resume. He has a total of 2 innings in of work in AA. From that, any team trading for him is going of off complete projection (and some hope) and not much of what he's done so far in his brief minor league career.

Vitters does have value, but it's all based on projection and scouting and nothing on his minor league track record. That said, regardless of where he's drafted most trades for star pitchers don't involve guys with only 19 pro games under their belt. To me it would just seem odd that the Cubs would trade him and that the Indians would take him.

Nothing against either of these players, but it doesn't seem like they are that much better what any other team could give the Indians, or even just taking the two draft picks.

integr96,

I get Ceda's being groomed to be a reliever. Doesn't change that he's just hitting AA. He very well might be a good setup man or even a closer in a few years. I'm just not sure a minor league reliever who's (I'll just use innings this time) 2 innings above A ball is enough to be a centerpiece in a trade for CC. He's have to be packaged with Gallagher and probably someone else.

And you have me completely confused on your comment about Marmol. He pitched in 2006 and most of 2007....not some guy who just busted on the scene in the 2nd half of last year....he'd been around.

Sabinus, the Tribe needs 1 power hitting corner OF, a closer, middle infield depth and a 3B. Current injuries not-with-standing they have quite a bit of pitching depth for the future and have no immediate needs at CF, C, 1B. If the current season is considered lost anyway, the closer is probably a lower priority since they have some emerging candidates like Tony Sipp. I'm just not so sure the Cubs match up very well irrespective of the qaulity of their prospects.

I think another team will offer up one of their top guys...like the Dodgers offering Laroche+. All I'm trying to say here is the Cubs have enough to make it worth their while, but probably not enough to get it done with other teams involved.

Sabathia
Beckett
Matsuzaka
Lester
Bucholz/Masterson

Im sorry i just wanted to write that down because i knew how pretty it would look, by golly i was right...

"Vitters has a ceiling but Hodges has the stats. Hodges is also a college players, so is generally regarded as more polished. Hodges is a true 3B, but the Indians also have Beau Mills (more so a 1B) and now possibly Lonne Chisenhall at 3B. "

I'll agree with most of that, but his defense was regarded as being bad..so I'm not sure about that true 3B statement. The other two are servicable, but Vitters has the ceiling on any of those guys, and could probably play LF and maybe even right with no problem.

Darin,
I think what he is trying to say is there was actually talk of Ceda beating the odds and making the pen in spring training. Obviously, that didn't happen, and shouldn't have...he needs to work on his control. However, there is an actual realistic chance that he could be on a big league roster as early as next year, and who knows after that. I think thats all he was saying.

Vitters is 18 and Hodges is 23, and Vitters may not even stick at 3rd. If I'm the Tribe, and don't have an offer with a LaRoche or Kemp type of player in it, an offer with Vitters and Ceda certainly gets my attention.

thanks micks. I would think a guy like Haufpair could be a nice fit at a Corner OF spot. He has shown (though in a breif amount of at bats) the ability to hit major league pitching and had some power in the minors. Ceda could very well be in the majors at the end of the year, with potential closer material. Cedeno has the ability to play some third while also prodiding MI depth, depending on how you want to use him. Add those to the potential of Vitters and the shown ability of gallagher (5 out of 7 starts this year were quality starts). That would be at least a start.

"please, give us an indepth list of needs for the Indians. I am going by my limited knowledge base, but you know more than me what they need."

To add to what MickS said:
...Starts with a stud slugger (preferably for OF/3B but maybe 2B/SS since guys can move around) or SP. Has to be mostly guys who will help within their window (currently open till about 2010), but others might be included if it centers around the ML-Ready types. Low minors MI help might work as depth to a deal (as pointed out by someone). Back of rotation types, roster-filler types, organizational types, project types ~ these will hold very little value as centerpieces and could only be added on to a package with a stud... No one who is out of options this year or next will be included unless they are a true ML talent (ie, no Cedeno or Murton or Marshall, etc…). Without the Stud, competing with Sabathia and using the DPs to take signability fast-track guys with the cash saved when he leaves is arguably a better option…

If the Yankees were to trade for him then I am sure they would agree to an extension before hand.

1. Cubs: Cubs fans, your having a great year, and maybe im a little angry about your season since im from milwaukee, but I would really enjoy to see the cubs trade Josh Vitters (by far your best prospect) for a half a season from CC. Dont kid yourselves. Even if you win the WS with CC, you cannot outbid the yankees for CC in the offseason, and by the way, you have the brewers and the reds creeping up behind you in the next few years. If you sell your farm system for a world series this year, your not going to have the young talent to carry you there again. The cubs are getting older.

2. Rays: Rays fans, im not so sure you should get caught up in all the hype. The rays shouldnt trade any of their great prospects for someone like griffey, or bedard, or anyone. Face it, the rays are not a legitimate contender this year, theres no way you can keep up with boston. The pitching is well to young and inexperienced. The rays have an INCREDIBLE farm system, but this isnt the year. I do however this the rays will be a legitimate contender in the next few years, and for years to come.

glover28,

If the Cubs win the WS this year with him, the rest of it doesn't matter.

"just trade cc for Andy Pettitte Edwar Ramirez Shelly Duncan"

I'm praying you're either joking or you just hit your head.

"why do the red sox need sabtathia?"

The Sox don't NEED Sabathia, he's not the difference between winning the series or not. But put him next to Beckett in a rotation and you have a torrid 1-2 punch.

the problem with vitters and the Cubs is where will he play? Soriano has LF locked down for the next 5+ years, Fukudome has RF, Lee at 1st and ARam at 3rd. Lee is the old man of the group at 32 years old. All are potential all stars every year and are locked up for the next 4 years or so. I just dont see where vitters will fit in.

I know once a team drafts a player he can't be traded for 1 year, correct? And is it one year from the draft date, signing date or pro debut? Could this effect Vitters is all I'm asking?

By the time Vitters is ready, around 2010, Ramirez could opt out of his contract if he wants to, and Lee's contract ends at the end of 2010. There will be a place for Vitters at one of the corners. It also wouldn't surprise me if Lee left after 2010 and Soriano moved to first base. Less chance of him getting injured.

Jesus...the never ending debate about the Cubs prospects really kills what could be a lot of decent threads here

I would think the Dodgers match up as well as anyone, if Torre really does like Dewitt as much as is publicized maybe LaRoche and Broxton package with a high-potential A arm could be of interest

thanks for that update guys. I love what ive read about him. I just hope Lee doesnt leave. He needs to retire a cub.

its obvious that we want to talk about the cubs. Threads about the Cubs have about 3-5 times as many comments as non cubs threads

The reds are a great fit. They can offer Homer or other nice prospects and could even ship off Dunn if they'd be interested.

Harang, Sabathia, Volquez, Cueto plus some change and they'd be set for years to come....

glover28

The Cubs are not old, and should be perennial favorites in their division for the next few years without Vitters - who is not even a factor yet. So I agree go for the World Series this year, but we can have our cake and eat it too, over the next few years.

Why can't the Cubs pay Sabathia as much as the Yankees?? The Cubs are loaded with cash. LOADED.

The Reds aren't a great fit, because even with CC they are a longshot to reach the playoffs, and they are unlikely to re-sign him in the offseason due to payroll, market size, ballpark.

So could they get him? Maybe. Would a smart GM in Jocketty who just got settled in throw some prospects at 4 months of Sabathia with a last place ballclub? No

In my last posts, i was saying the cubs arent very old, yet, but theyre certainly getting there.
The cubs wont be perennial favorites in the next few years because the brewers and reds have great farm systems, and will definately compete with the cubs for a division title.
And the thing about the baseball world is, what the yankees want, the yankees will get, and i can just see CC in a yankees uniform.

The Cubs don't have what it takes to get Sabathia. The Cubs don't even need him right now anyway with the way they are playing right now. Tampa Bay seems to have the most valuable pieces for Sabathia but i doubt that they would want to trade away their future for most likely a 1 year stint. The money that Sabathia would want would just be to much for the D-Rays and that is why i think they will pass on him.

Dodgers are in 2nd place in the West and the D-Backs are scuffling. As for the Tribe, Hafner could be out even longer now. Just announced that he is seeing Dr. James Andrews for a 2nd opinion on his shoulder. This probably increases the Indians need for a big bat to help them out.

Sabinus,

I’m not sure I completely understand how you can hear what the Tribe would want and reply with basically 5 guys that everyone (well, outside the Cubs fans) say they wouldn’t / don’t fit well (Cedeno/Vitters/Gallagher/Haufpair/Ceda) as if it somehow proves “the cubs do have the tallent to get this trade done”.

I mean, of course any team has what it takes to get it done, that goes without saying (yeah, even teams like Pitt or SF if you can believe that). But going by whats available vs whats wanted vs what fits vs whats reasonable; well I (like everyone but the Cubs fans) am not sure how you feel the Cubs still stand strong…

WayneGomes,

“I would think the Dodgers match up as well as anyone,”

…Yet Hoynes doesn’t even mention the Dodgers, does he? Gotta love the home-town reporters who only provide articles based on their ulterior motives ~ and blatantly wear said motives on their sleeves…

PS, per his consistent statements (whether asked or not), the Dodgers have the inside track to resign him if he doesn’t stay in Cleveland and have the prospects (in the perfect positions) to match up with the Tribe. LA being in contention despite being without Furcal, Jones and their Ace is a good sign for them to target such a player as CC and make a huge second half run.

Personally, I really hope Cleveland pulls in LaRoche and James McDonald in some type of package.

''wow every cub fan its a huge homer ... the cubs dont have nething in their farm system to land cc

BREAKING NEWS TO CUB FANS

no one wants pie , murton , hill , veal or ne other of the scrubs yall think can get it done to get cc.''

OK what the hell are you talking about? We have people ok so shut up and we could get this deal done.
Marshall
Hill
Veal could go and I bet they would accept Tyler Colvin, Murton and even Pie.