Yankees Rumors: Cameron, Melky, Pettitte, Lowe

I can't imagine that Cameron rumor being true. Melky is a clear downgrade in just about every way to Cameron.

Tim,
How about Melky Cabrera,Robinson Cano, and Ian Kennedy for
Mike Cameron, Rickie Weeks and/or Tony Gwynn Jr.?

Lidocaine,
For that type of a package I would expect the yankees to pursue an established ML pitcher. Also, that adds quite a bit of salary to the Brewers.

Cameron would be a good patch / platoon for CF until AJax is ready. Melky is dead weight. However, giving up Betemit, Melky, and a pitcher for Cameron is too much.

NO LOWE, BRIAN!

+ Can we officially declare a moratorium on Cano trade speculation? While he might bring back something we need, trading him would fly in the face of the strategy laid out last year and, worse yet, alienate numerous fans.

"I can't imagine that Cameron rumor being true. Melky is a clear downgrade in just about every way to Cameron"

I think you have that backwards! Melky is 12 years younger, has already led the AL in assists, is a switch hitter, hit for the same average as Cameron and strikes out less than half as much. Besides that Melky has potential, whereas Cameron is on a downswing...and Cameron makes over 10 MILL while Melky is making 400K. Only thing Cameron can do better than Melky right now is pop a few more homers. NO THANKS! I'd rather see Gardner out there and use the money towards Tex or pitching.

I think it would be a good trade, also the one someone propsed wasn't to bad. For the yanks the money doesn't matter and bottom line they improve. The brewers get a capable player who can improve and and they need some pitching propects for there upper levels.

What would the Yankees do without Cabrera, Betemit, and Kennedy?

2008 OPS: Betemit - 718 / Cabrera - 642 / Cameron - 808
2008 ERA: Kennedy - 8.17

Cabrera/Betemit are AAAA players. OK guys to have on a club in case of injuries but in no way should they be starters. Meanwhile, Cameron had a great year last year. Which followed 2 very solid years the previous seasons. Cameron is a major league starter - top 15 in his position. He would be a huge upgrade over what is currently being fielded.

As for Kennedy - you either believe that he is has upside or you don't. In my case the guy projects to be a 5th starter at best. Not a lot of value for me. However, if you believe he is a solid #3 type starter I can see your hesitation when it comes to moving the guy.

One of gardners most redeeming qualities is that he walks at a very good rate (70 BB @ SWB). Unfortunately that doesnt carry over and pay immediate dividends in mlb.In the minors ups knew him as a very discriminate hitter so all the close calls that are just off the plate he would get. Now in mlb, all umps see is some rookie punk and the close calls go the other way. He has historically been a slow starter in each level of play and this is probably why. The kid hit .296 with an obp of .414, you put a guy with his speed on first and you'll get burt (37 steals in 96 games at SWB and 16 for 16 in his short stint with the yanks.

i was wrong abt gardners steals in mlb he was 13/14.

"Melky and Kennedy are the equivalent of signing Gabe Kapler and Paul Byrd! Junk!"

Much like every single thing you post here.

Cameron got caught stealing 2.5 times more than Melky last year!!!

I'd like to think Mike Cameron can grab someone better than Melky Cabrera. Why would the Yankees even try to trade him when his value is rock bottom? Maybe they've completely given up on Milky.

Ransom would also make a better full-time utlity guy than Betemit.

if you really want to get into stats here they are to compare melky to cameron
via points system on major categories in fielding and hitting

melky: 129 games despite being sent down
cameron: 120 (suspended for steroids)

cameron has melky on homeruns, doubles triples, RBIs, walks, steals, On base percentage and slugging in hitting

we all know cameron is the better hitter here, melky only has him on is batting average .243 to .249, and melky also strikes out a hellof a lot less

Melky actually has a better fielding percentage than cameron all over the outfield in his career, although cameron made only one error this year to melkys four

melky had more assists and a better range factor, while cameron has the better zone rating

cameron might be better NOW

but melky is eleven years younger

so if the yanks attitude is a warm body in center field waiting for austin jackson, then melky for cameron is an ok deal, but trading potential for an older veteran who can outhit him is not smart

id rather try gardner who is a better fielder, walks more, and is faster than either of them, although he has no power

perhaps he does, but he will not strike out 149 times in 120 games- i can guaruntee you that

I can't even believe we are arguing this.

Win Shares - takes into account offense and defense.

Cameron = 19 / Cabrera = 5

rough translation = Cameron contributed more than 6 wins compared to Melky's less than 2.

Or you can look at VORP (by BP). No defense here but VORP does take into consideration the defensive position you play when considering your offensive production.

Cameron = 22.3 / Melky = -4.0

In this case, Melky performed WORSE than a replacement level player. This shouldn't be a surprise as most people outside the Bronx realize he is a AAAA type player.

The only thing that Melky is better at that than Cameron is striking out less. As has been discussed over, and over, and over again that is one of the most useless statistics ever.

Melky is a warm body who can play decent defense and is cheap. He should not be starting at CF for any big league club - especially one that has a payroll north of $200m.

Ok...I was going to make an arguement on the stupidity of giving up on a 24 year old CF who last year many thought had good potential and is now looked at as garbage based off of a bad year but I dont even want to waste my breath. Any Yankee fan who wants to trade him for a 36 year old player on decline can not be reasoned with. I just hope Cash doesn't pull the trigger.

I don't want Melky(sucks, hits into tons of DP's), Cameron(rally killer who constantly k's), Gardner (can't hit) or Betemit (the worst player I have seen in a Yankee uniform in 30 years). I want Damon in center, Manny, Matt or Hideki in left, Nady in right, Posada, Manny or Hideki at DH, Posada or Molina catching, Teixeira at first and leave the rest as is. With CC, Wang, Pettitte, Joba and Lowe or Burnett guaranteed #27 W.S.

Pardon some of the typos...

Wow...did someone say that batting avg and strike outs are meaningless stats?

Is that why we're still giving out batting title awards? lol. You can make an arguement about a player like Ichiro or Pierre who are mostly singles hitters and how their hits are "powerless" but BAVG still measures hits vs at bats.

And strikeouts are nothing. So a player who comes to bat and whiffs 150 x means nothing? A strikeout is probably the absolute worst thing a hitter can do. He offers nothing to a team. Yes, it might be better than hitting into a double play but at least a player who can put the ball on the ground where he wants to or can hit it deep has the ability to move a player from one base to another thus making his out productive.

You people are crazy. You have a few new formulas and stats and you think you can disregard all the other ones? All stats have use and all stats have some validity to them. Stop "cherry picking" which stats are good and which ones aren't. Use them all but use them with a grain of intelligence.

I'm not knocking Cameron as a player but he does two things well. Plays good defense and can give you 20 homeruns. But he'll also strike out a lot and hit for a very low avg. Any pitcher worth his salt can get this guy out. please stop making out as the next Willie Mays.

"I don't think I've ever seen a poorer use of statistics. Wow"

Maybe you need to spend less time being a stat geek like half the nit wits that come on here and actually understand the game.

Wow.

I can feel my brain leaking out of my ear.

Thanks YanksFan.

Batting average and K rate are important huh?

I would post a link for a team total that correlates BA to runs scored, as well as K rate to runs scored, but I don't think you'd care.

Needless to say, teams that K a lot score a lot of runs, as do teams that walk a lot, leading to a high OBP and not necessarily a high batting avg.

It's not rocket science.

No, I wouldn't. High OBP guys and guys that at least put the ball in play provide more productive outs, more runners and have a chance to be driven in. Thus the reason perrenial top teams like the Yankees and Red Sox value players like that so highly. THAT's not rocket science.

I think there's a happy medium in between the use of sabermatic stats and baseball common sense. Cameron is a slight improvement on the CF situation but not a drastic improvement. That being the case you have to measure what your being asked to give up:

a) A serviceable 24 year old OF in Melky

b) Young prospects including at least one pitcher (Maybe Kennedy).

c) A salary increase at that position of $9.6 million.

It's not worth it. It helps you for 1 year but come winter of '09 your faced with even more questions.

-Do you go with Cameron another year if Ajax isn't ready?

-Can Cameron produce at age 37 again?

-How do you replace Damon and Matsui.

-Do you resign Nady?

-Can Gardner play everyday in the majors (which you can't really answer if he's relegated to being a 4th OF. In fact he would probably be better served being sent back to the minors.

-Who's going to be our lead off hitter in 2010?

Meanwhile, our team finished 8 games out of 1st NOT because of who was or was not playing CF but because we were an old, unathletic team, with poor infield defense and NO PICTHING. We were also a base to base team that couldn't create runs and had to depend on the long ball. When are we going to change the thinking people?

Couple of things:

If the Brewers are looking to upgrade at center, do not understand why they are not looking at Crisp instead of Melky. Crisp will give proven speed and a glove instead of potential that has yet to succeed, though it will still leave then with the 10mil that Cameron has as doubt Boston wants the headache that he would bring to any club house.

Why not keep kennedy also and try to use him in some kind of package (along with melky) towards a trade with Texas for one of the 3 catchers that they have also? Like Yanksfan78 posted above (and has on several occasions in the past) Give Gardner a chance and then make a play for another vet besides Cameron, he is nothing special besides a 10 mil glove.

Too All:
The Yanks OBP + Slug. has gone down dramatically and they are now losing both Giambi and Abreu there #2 & #3 OBP guys. Cameron low OBP, Gardner low Slug., Cabrera & Betemit No OBP or Slug., Damon high OBP and decent CF Slug.%. Now, Manny, Matsui, Posada, Teixeira, A-Rod, Nady, and Holliday high OBP & slug.%. Jeter high OBP and Cano work in progress.
And you don't realize that the 88+ million coming off payroll right before first season in new stadium was all planned. They can afford to go over 250 million and will this off season, free agents won't be able to say no to these dollar amounts. Watch with a smile Yankee fans. #27 is coming.

Too all:
Yanks lost lots of OPS last year and now Giambi and Abreu, #2 & #3 are gone. That is why Damon with an extremely high OPS for a center fielder is good and more than makes up for his arm and range. Plus, the Yanks signing Manny or Teixeira and maybe trading for Holliday makes total sense, all high OPS. The 88+ million coming off payroll right before first season in new stadium was a brilliant strategy. The Yanks are not only going to floor these free agents with huge dollars but by far the best baseball stadium in the world brand new. They would be idiots not to want to play there in 2009. They all want to wear pinstripes deep down inside. Watch 110 - 52 in 2009. #27 is coming.

Yankeegirl49,
I like I like more
Damon Damon
Jeter Jeter
Teixeira Ramirez
ARod Teixeira
Posada ARod
Matsui Matsui
Nady Nady
Cano Posada
Gardner Cano

XOXOXO#27 Yanksrule

Manny will thrive anywhere..anywhere he feels like it.
He is the opposite of everything that Yankee tradition embodies.
If he becomes a Yank I will root for him to do well because I root for the uniform before I root for the players that wear it. I will never own a single thing that says "Ramirez" and I spend thousands on Yankee stuff.
There are 3 guys that have played for the yanks that I have hated passionately, he would bypass every one of them on that list.

I agree that there are 2 or 3 things the Yanks should look to improve before they thought of obtaining Man-NY but I posted this thought a few weeks ago about how coming to NY might be different than him going to any other city:

-He grew up in the Bronx and probably still has family there.

-There's a huge Dominican community in the Bronx and New York in general (especially in comparison to Boston). Would Man-NY be ashamed to act the way he did in the past and would pride keep him in line?

-Ny is 10x more diverse than Boston would he feel more comfortable?

-Would playing w/ other huge players like Arod and Jeter take some pressure off of him?

-He seemed to relish the idea of being a major reason why Boston won their 1st ring in 80 years. Would he like the chane to bring #27 to the Yanks and the 1st to the new stadium?

-The Yanks can afford to give him what he really wants. 4 years at $25-$30 per. If he has the contract he wants w/ guaranteed money then what is there for him to be unhappy about? The only time he slacked off was when the question of his options being picked up came. At the end of his deal he'd be 40 and probably not in a position or temperment to ask for another deal.

-He's entering the twilight of his career. Will he try to exist on a good note going out being known as a great player, who was often misunderstood? Would he use this chance to set the record straight and show he's a good "person"? If he put up his numbers and avoided all the drama and thrived under the NY spotlight he could write his own tickt to cooperstown and make 10's of millions in endorsements in NY. Something he never did in Boston. He could retire as a New York icon.

These are things he could never do outside of New York (maybe LA). COuld NY be a difference maker?

MIKE CAMERON IS NO GOOD FOR THE YANKEES WE DONT NEED ANOTHER GUY WHO STRIKES OUT 150 TIMES A YEAR IN A LINEUP WITH A-ROD&CANO THE THREE OF THEM WILL MAKE UP FOR 400 STRIKEOUTS THEMSELFS........AND FURTHERMORE IF LOWE IS ON THIS TEAM I WILL THROW MY TV OUT THE WINDOW....HE IS A TYPE A BUMM.........PITCHING IN THE NL WEST IS A TOTALY DIFFERNT ANIMAL THEN PITCHING IN THE AL EAST .....THATS ALL I HAVE TO SAY ABOUT THAT

Wouldn't Jim Edmonds be a cheaper version of Cameron? platoon him and Melky or Gardner. I can't see him getting more than $2 million - 4 max. He has lost a step but I think he suits yankees needs better and is cheaper

MIKE CAMERON IS NO GOOD FOR THE YANKEES WE DONT NEED ANOTHER GUY WHO STRIKES OUT 150 TIMES A YEAR IN A LINEUP WITH A-ROD&CANO THE THREE OF THEM WILL MAKE UP FOR 400 STRIKEOUTS THEMSELFS........AND FURTHERMORE IF LOWE IS ON THIS TEAM I WILL THROW MY TV OUT THE WINDOW....HE IS A TYPE A BUMM.........PITCHING IN THE NL WEST IS A TOTALY DIFFERNT ANIMAL THEN PITCHING IN THE AL EAST .....THATS ALL I HAVE TO SAY ABOUT THAT

Lowe has pitched in the AL east before and can handle the pressure.

dont get your point with arod and cano..combined they strike out less than cameron would in a full season.. you mad?

Colin:

The arguement is not "Is Melky better than Cameron". He's not. Not today maybe not tomorrow. The arguement I'm making is, Cameron isn't THAT much better than Melky that we should even consider trading Melky, Kennedy and paying $10 million to get him. And by all accounts that's what the Brews would require. Think about this. If Cameron is so great and Melky sucks so bad, why would the Brewers, who want to contend again next year, trade him for Melky and Kennedy if they felt it would not make their team better? Keep in mind that it's not a salary dump for the Brewers. They picked up Cameron's option with the express purpose of trading him for something more useful. Take that into consideration. When a team with a great eye for young talent that has drafted and developed so many great young players want your young players/prospecs for their established star what does that tell you? People wake up and smell the coffee. No one has said Melky will be the next Willie Mays, but the kid along with Gardner and Kennedy have talent that may not have been reached as of yet. And I've NEVER, EVER heard any "expert" say the reason why the Yanks failed to win this year was because of a lack of production in CF. Let's not pull a Bush/Cheyney and throw resources at the wrong "situation".

YanksFan:

I'm sorry I must've misread the article/someone's comments, I was under the impression that the trade idea being thrown around was Melky straight up for Cameron, didn't realize it would require more then that. If it was those two straight up though, you gotta agree that'd be a good move for the Yankees right now. They aren't worried about 2 or 3 years from now when/if Melky blossoms, they're concerned with winning now.