Odds & Ends: Floyd, Looper, El Duque, Manny

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37 Comments on "Odds & Ends: Floyd, Looper, El Duque, Manny"


switchhitingjesus
5 years 6 months ago

I really wanna see how Vasquez does in his second round in New York.

Ricky Bones
5 years 6 months ago

There’s no evidence to suggest it will be a success.

5 years 6 months ago

Manny is a genius he realizes LA hates him now lol

55saveslives
5 years 6 months ago

Wait til you hear the applause during his first at bat…the guy is a hero in LA

5 years 6 months ago

Ahhh, nothing like working for about a season and a half and getting paid 42 million. Are you sure you don’t want another extension Manram?

leviticus6688
5 years 6 months ago

Not quite sure how exactly the Rays plan on extending Crawford AND getting their payroll back below $60M, even with Pena gone next season.

5 years 6 months ago

Or they might just want to see how much he wants so they can tell the Rays fans they tried. Make no mistake, Rays fans will cry and cry about him leaving and they will claim that they will boycott. Its what they always do here. Also, under 60 million is a little bit of a sham unless they are planning to buy out the lease.

Ricky Bones
5 years 6 months ago

They won’t. He’ll be gone before season’s end & then it’s Desmond Jennings time.

Spirit of '69
5 years 6 months ago

Duaner Sanchez was done BEFORE he got into the accident. His stuff lost its bite and he went from being completely lights out to giving up a run almost every time he came out.
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Very good point, but Mets also never really addressed bullpen problem after they traded him. The whole “gonna trust our guys” mantra blew up in their faces as Aaron Heilman, Scott Schoeneweis, etc., blew lead after lead and game after game. Even supposedly elite closer Billy Wagner could not be trusted, he blew his share too. Trusting these guys through ’07 and ’08 cost the Mets two post-season berths and likely two division titles. Only after ’08 did they really take it seriously.

Ricky Bones
5 years 6 months ago

Not to mention all the drugs Schoeneweis’s wife used.

5 years 6 months ago

Barry Bonds never retired and would still sign a contract today if someone offered him one. Manny is just down because he’s 38 and realizes he can’t physically play the outfield anymore (talent arguments notwithstanding). It’s depressing knowing that you can’t stay in a city that has worshipped you for three years because they don’t have a DH spot for you to age into.

04Forever
5 years 6 months ago

It must physically pain Manny to lie as much as he does, and in turn hurt fans the way he does. to JUST come to Spring Training, the first time on time almost ever, and tell your team your not coming back next year is face spitting in my opinion. He thinks because he might not play next year, which is a flat out lie. The only real reason he should is because is OPS would make him the only 10th player ever to retire over 1.000. he WILL be back next year regardless what he says now, 1.000 OPS achieved or not. write it down, take a picture

markjsunz
5 years 6 months ago

Your agent is the one who did the great job manny, getting a roided out 38 year old over the hill player a two year deal for over 45 million. No hall of fame manny, you get elected to the hall of shame.

BaseballFan0707
5 years 6 months ago

What Sherman fails to realize is that the injury Vazquez pitched with during the second half of the season (and postseason) was far more of a reason why he floundered in New York.

Excellent reporting work, Sherman. Yeah, he mentions the injury in the article, then mentions how him hiding it for the sake of helping the team as all their pitchers were dropping like flies is a good reason, but doesn’t really back of his accusation of him being soft, nor does he ever acknowledge that the sore shoulder probably affected Javy more than the pressure of anchoring the Yanks staff in 04. Why, because Ozzie said he was soft? Even though he had a FIP of 3.74 in 08 and never posted a FIP above 3.80 during his White Sox tenure? This is why reporters need to be acquainted with advanced metrics, and not listen to the ramblings of a manager who loves to hear himself talk. There’s zero reason to bring up Ozzie’s questioning of his toughness after the world learned he was pitching with a bum arm for a good portion of the second half of the season for the Yanks.

Macfan1
5 years 6 months ago

Sherman is fishing for a story to drum up some controversy.

Who is some pencil pushing dweeb in a news studio to question an athletes toughness.

Macfan1
5 years 6 months ago

Sherman is fishing for a story to drum up some controversy.

Who is some pencil pushing dweeb in a news studio to question an athletes toughness.

Ricky Bones
5 years 6 months ago

We cannot base everything upon numbers and advanced metrics. At some point, players need to play the game & there are intangibles that numbers do not show. Vazquez does not show up when the lights are on. Certain numbers may look great over a long stretch of work but if you watch the games & the situations he’s in a different story can be told.

Vazquez also is invariably an every other year pitcher. This year is the bad year.

BaseballFan0707
5 years 6 months ago

Wrong.

Vazquez is not an every other year pitcher. In fact, since 2000, he has had a FIP above 4.06 exactly once. That year? 2004, when he pitched injured during the second half of the season. In fact, 04 and 05 were the only two years since 2000 that he has had a FIP above 4.

When Ozzie Guillen called his pitcher out, it was in 08, correct? Funny how that year, they were among the bottom 10 in terms of overall defensive metrics. Same goes for 06, when he also had a high ERA for the White Sox. It’s a wonder how his ERA was actually good in 07 when that was the year the Sox defense was at its worst.

Javier did everything in his power to get the Braves to the post season. I watched plenty of his games this year (he was often the pitcher when the Braves were on Sunday Baseball on TBS.), and he was great.

He only had 4 games where he gave up 5+ earned runs this past year.

Just go to his fangraphs page and actually look at his stats. He shows up plenty. If only his defense showed up more often when he was with the Sox, Ozzie would have one hell of a different tone.

Ricky Bones
5 years 6 months ago

In 2008, the defense was historically bad, so bad it’s stunning they made the playoffs. That being said, his struggles were not defensive related. When the lights are on the guy folds. End of story. And for him not being an every other year pitcher?

Javier Vazquez ERA totals since 2000:

2000: 4.05
2001: 3.42
2002: 3.91
2003: 3.24
2004: 4.91 *
2005: 4.42
2006: 4.84 *
2007: 3.74 *
2008: 4.67 *
2009: 2.87

*years in AL

Now I’m sure you’ll pull out some metrics to defend this trend so let’s try WHIP:

2000: 1.41
2001: 1.07
2002: 1.26
2003: 1.10
2004: 1.28 *
2005: 1.24
2006: 1.29 *
2007: 1.14 *
2008: 1.32 *
2009: 1.02

*years in AL

Again, he alternates years. At some point, no matter how many advanced metrics you pull out, there has to be a realisation that the guy is not clutch & the model of inconsistency.

BaseballFan0707
5 years 6 months ago

And yet none of that disproves the fact that his FIP only breaking 4.00 twice since 2000 says otherwise.

So I will continue to assert that, when given a decent defense behind him, he will pitch just fine. Do some more in-depth work. Visit his page on Fan-Graphs. Look at stats beyond the fluff that WHIP and ERA show.

Ricky Bones
5 years 6 months ago

Do you work for Fan Graphs? You’re really pushing hard for me to go there.

FIP, like all sabermetrics, is not the end all beat all & should not be taken as such. Not only does it, like other statistical measurements have shortcomings, but also it goes back to the point that the games are decided on the field, not the classroom. Numbers can say a lot of things, but there are a lot of things that looking solely at the numbers will never tell you.

Not sure what about WHIP is considered fluff. It’s pretty straightforward – walks & hits per 9 innings pitched. As I type this, I realise you’re going to go back to defense so I must ask at what point does onus & responsibility fall on the pitcher not to allow hits? It can’t all be the defense’s fault.

BaseballFan0707
5 years 6 months ago

I keep telling you to visit his page because there are just so many numbers in his favor as a consistent starting pitcher that I simply have no desire to make a super-long post for.

It isn’t all the defenses fault.

But would you argue against the idea that a poor defense could easily lead to balls dropping in for cheap hits or ground balls that should be fielded easily but manage to get through that would be routine plays for an average defense? That’s the whole point of UZR. It answers that type of question.

His WHIP can easily be inflated by this. Nothing more needs to be said about ERA.

The whole reason why I won’t back off of this is because ERA and WHIP do not tell enough of the story. For me, sabermetrics fill in the blanks that are there. You say sabermetrics has its faults. It does. But face stats like ERA and WHIP (ERA moreso than WHIP) have far more faults. It’s far easier for 2 or 3 very bad starts to kill a pitcher’s ERA (while moreso true for relievers, this can also apply to starters).

I also find it more appropriate to look at his KK/9, BB/9, and K/BB. For his career? 8.14, 2.34, and 3.48, respectively. Since 2000, he has never posted a BB/9 above 2.75.

Ricky Bones
5 years 6 months ago

I guess we’ll just have to agree to disagree on his ability in pressure situations. No matter what the numbers may suggest about his overall consistency, when he needs to come up big he doesn’t.

Defense certainly plays a big factor. I don’t think anyone could deny that. Also, it’s not just sabermetrics that have flaws, all statistical analysis does. I just don’t like when some out there take those outputs as gospel. If you look hard enough, you can get the numbers to say just about anything you want them to.

optionn
5 years 6 months ago

Manny most likely wanted a contract extension and was rebuked. Remember how bad he was crying in Boston about that 20 million dollar option. The good thing is- his days of making 20 million are behind him after this year. Hell, he’ll be lucky to get 8 million like Johnny Damon next year with his advanced age and poor defense.

Pseudonymus Bosch
5 years 6 months ago

Okay, I thought the Jim Bowden video was pretty dull until the last five seconds came along. OMGWTFROFLMAO!!!

Macfan1
5 years 6 months ago

“Joel Sherman of the New York Post doesn’t buy the idea that the pressure will be off for Javier Vazquez as the Yankees #4 starter.”

++++++++++++++++++++++

This is what happens when journalists have too much free time and need controversy. Yankee camp is too quiet for them, no steroid admission, no Arod cheating on his wife, no Bronx Zoo, Jeter, Rivera and Girardi’s contract story had no substance when they tried to play it up, when the Yankees have always approached contracts that way.

Just a boring bunch of guys getting ready in Florida as defending World Series Champions

So jokers like Sherman have to create articles with some edge to spark interest.

The media are beyond hilarious.

Macfan1
5 years 6 months ago

“Joel Sherman of the New York Post doesn’t buy the idea that the pressure will be off for Javier Vazquez as the Yankees #4 starter.”

++++++++++++++++++++++

This is what happens when journalists have too much free time and need controversy. Yankee camp is too quiet for them, no steroid admission, no Arod cheating on his wife, no Bronx Zoo, Jeter, Rivera and Girardi’s contract story had no substance when they tried to play it up, when the Yankees have always approached contracts that way.

Just a boring bunch of guys getting ready in Florida as defending World Series Champions

So jokers like Sherman have to create articles with some edge to spark interest.

The media are beyond hilarious.

switchhitingjesus
5 years 6 months ago

Looper is probably waiting for a contender to offer him a contract. Then he will go to the nationals after he gets cut.

switchhitingjesus
5 years 6 months ago

Looper is probably waiting for a contender to offer him a contract. Then he will go to the nationals after he gets cut.

R_y_a_n
5 years 6 months ago

Wait. Wait. Wait.

For those who watched the video – I’m not the only one who heard Dayton Moore say “On Base Percentage is certainly very important”, right? LOL.

Bowden’s a jack***. The statheads didn’t use their “OSJIE#QIS” stat (well, that’s how Bowden put it) to determine that Justin Upton was comparable to Al Kaline, Juan Gonzalez, Ken Griffey JR and Ruben Sierra – they looked at simple stats and considered how early the players came up to the majors. THAT is how they determined Upton can be put in a group with those guys.

And LOL at Bowden at the end of the video. Man I hate that guy.

Pseudonymus Bosch
5 years 6 months ago

Glad I’m not the only person who watched the video. Dayton Moore sounded like a complete idiot, but Jim Bowden … wow. Can’t believe anybody would be willing to talk to such a skeezball.

“Theo has Carmine, but I’ve got THESE stats to enjoy!!”

dire straits
5 years 6 months ago

Gee Manny, thanks for the clarification!

Guest
5 years 6 months ago

Manny’s contract isn’t leaving anytime soon.

5 years 6 months ago

Manny will land in the 2/22-26 range in my opinion. Still an absolutely great hitter with 30-40hr potential. There are plenty of teams that would love to have him DH. TB will inquire for sure. I have said it before, he would be a great fit to DH in SEA behind all of the OBP in Ichiro and Figgins. And don’t count out a team like DET with money coming off the books. Lots of options for Boras to toy with.

Spirit of '69
5 years 6 months ago

They had just come within a swing of going to the WS and, with so much at stake, how do you not send a message that … so-much-is-at-stake. They were giving up wayyy too many late inning HRs early in ’07, red flags everywhere, and no one was brought in, no one was sent down, no message sent. They reaped what they sowed and we had to suffer for it. Twice.

Ricky Bones
5 years 6 months ago

No chance he could have worked to improve & gotten over the hump. Yeah, you’re probably right. That car accident had no consequence on his career whatsoever.

Ricky Bones
5 years 6 months ago

I’m sure he feels the same relief that he didn’t get another shot at it before the crash ended his chances. Pitchers seldom hit a low-point in their careers & become effective at a later date, especially relievers. You’re right.