Garret Anderson To Retire

Garret Anderson is retiring today, according to MLB.com's Lyle Spencer. The 17-year veteran posted a .293/.324/.461 in 17 seasons with the Angels, Braves and Dodgers, but he'll be remembered for his contributions in Anaheim. He retires as the Angels' all-time leader in games, hits, doubles, total bases, runs, extra base hits and RBI.

The 1990 fourth-round selection made three All-Star teams and won two Silver Sluggers. He was especially productive in 2002, when the Angels won it all, and 2003. Anderson led the American League in doubles both years, posting a combined OPS+ of 129.

Anderson agreed to a minor league deal with the Dodgers last March, but they cut him in August after a disappointing season. The 38-year-old hit .181/.204/.271 for the Dodgers and didn't draw interest as a free agent this winter.


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140 Comments on "Garret Anderson To Retire"


Goldberg365
4 years 5 months ago

Good, I hated him when he was on the Braves.

seligeramus
4 years 5 months ago

Is that necessary? Mediocre performance in Atlanta aside, I’m not sure rejoicing in his retirement is warranted. I never heard anything but good things about his clubhouse presence, and he was certainly a force for a few years in his career. It seems tactless to hate a guy and be happy about his retirement because of a pit-stop he made at the tail end of his otherwise good career.

Goldberg365
4 years 5 months ago

For the year of pain and suffering he gave me, yes, yes it is. He acted like he did not want to be in the field and loafed around with no passion. That doesn’t scream class act to me. But to each his own.

PushDown
4 years 5 months ago

Yeah, and disrespecting someone and telling him good riddance “scream class act.”

coolstorybro222
4 years 5 months ago

Oh look it’s a Angels fan defending his medicore player.

notsureifsrs
4 years 5 months ago

perfectly-correctly-rated mediocre player*

PushDown
4 years 5 months ago

Oh shoot I guess I got the definition of fan wrong, should I be disrespecting the team and players I root for?

ryankrol
4 years 5 months ago

Actually you and some others look more like people ripping on a player you know absolutely nothing about.

ryankrol
4 years 5 months ago

A year of pain and suffering? haha That’s probably because he was getting old and should have been DHing. His legs had been declining since about 2004. There was a time in the late 90s when this guy, along with Salmon and Edmonds, would run down just about every line drive that would dare make it’s way into the left center field gap. Then, of course there is his bat, which (as far as I know) led the Majors in Hits from 1995-2003; might have to check that, but it’s around that vicinity. But, seriously, what were you really expecting out of Garrett Anderson when he was 37? lol

4 years 5 months ago

Yo Goldberg365. At least Anderson could stay healthy and play unlike that piece of crap Chipper Jones. Garrett Anderson is a hall of famer you dumbass. Braves are going to suck this year anyways. Your pitching staff consist of a bunch of old men. Good luck with Phillies dumbass.

notsureifsrs
4 years 5 months ago

no hard feelings, but definitely one of the most overrated players in recent history

4 years 5 months ago

Over rated by who? He was largely ignored his entire career.

notsureifsrs
4 years 5 months ago

Career to date (may be incomplete) $76,523,000

if only we could all be so ignored

4 years 5 months ago

ignored by the media =/= ignored by the team paying him

You may have meant the latter, but its not like you specified.

notsureifsrs
4 years 5 months ago

“here is evidence that he wasn’t overrated by everyone. this should disprove the claim that he was overrated”

PushDown
4 years 5 months ago

And that means he was overrated…?

Plus, dude leads the Angels in several important offensive categories, he ain’t a chump.

notsureifsrs
4 years 5 months ago

“And that means he was overrated…?”

…yep. he was a below average major league player for 9 of his 16 seasons, less than a win above average for another 5. two good seasons in 16

PushDown
4 years 5 months ago

Yeah, but he can’t be overrated if nobody paid him much attention.

notsureifsrs
4 years 5 months ago

why’s that?

i enjoy the fact that several people in this thread are overrating him while others of you insist it isn’t so

it was also good when someone cited a lack of espn coverage. because in order to be overrated, espn has to think you’re a top player in the game. if people widely believe that you were/are a pretty good player despite the fact that you very definitely were not, that’s not being overrated. we don’t know what it is, but we’re very sure it’s not being overrated

Taylor Hope
4 years 5 months ago

If you were fans of a team in the AL West you would know that the numbers he put up offensively do not signify how big of a threat he was, and his defensive statistics… well I wouldn’t call him a great fielder, but he wasn’t that poor of a player.

Commander_Nate
4 years 5 months ago

By today’s estimation of WAR/$, he was worth around $126 million over his career. He didn’t reach 10-figures until he turned 36, and was making barely $5 mil when he was having MVP-caliber seasons.

Commander_Nate
4 years 5 months ago

*8-figures

notsureifsrs
4 years 5 months ago

“By today’s estimation of WAR/$”

why in the world would you use that

notsureifsrs
4 years 5 months ago

also 0 MVP-caliber seasons

Commander_Nate
4 years 5 months ago

2002 – finished 4th in voting. 2003 – finished 14th in voting. Combined WAR: 11.4.

notsureifsrs
4 years 5 months ago

^check out my switch to rWAR to skirt the defense issue. TZ is less precise but nevermind you that it works for my argument

8.6 fWAR from 02-03 – peak WAR 5.0. about 30 players put up 5+ WAR last season

as for the voting: srs? that evidence is the property of the he-was-overrated beaureu

4 years 5 months ago

Good lord you’re pretentious

notsureifsrs
4 years 5 months ago

i also lack class and tact. all dignified and unpretentious things to point out

ryankrol
4 years 5 months ago

You’re digging your own grave. lol

An MVP is measured by the value the player is to his ballclub; the point being what that team would do without said player.

Kirk Gibson won the NL MVP Award in 1988 with only 25 HR and 76 RBI, because he brought a fire to the team that stayed lit even when he went down in the World Series.

Don’t give up though. I have hope for you. haha

Brad426
4 years 5 months ago

Yeah, you’re really burying him.

strikethree
4 years 5 months ago

By what system?

Today’s “estimation of WAR/$” is just that — an estimation. It should only be used for quick generalizations (and are usually quite inaccurate at that).

Anyhow, today’s rate throws in inflation and the estimated “current market price” for the current period. Market prices back then were not as high as they are now.

Plus, let’s not forget that he played for 17 seasons. (16 is you subtracted his first season since he was just given 13 abs and 15 seasons if you wanted to take away his last year) That leads to about 1.6-1.8 WAR a season. That’s not great especially for a corner OFer. He finished with a 102 OPS+ which is practically the definition of “average”. (Although, a bit worse since he was a corner OFer)

4 years 5 months ago

You can’t include regular people in an argument about which baseball players have been ignored, let alone make your case using financials. Compare him with other professional players, and he’s one of the most unknown 2,500 hit guys out there.

notsureifsrs
4 years 5 months ago

many of you are equating “overrated” with “widely popular”. this is your choice, but not something indicated by the word itself

anderson’s career is a great illustration of why counting stats like career hits should be giving very little weight

ryankrol
4 years 5 months ago

“anderson’s career is a great illustration of why counting stats like career hits should be giving very little weight”

Do you even know how Runs are scored in the game of baseball?

notsureifsrs
4 years 5 months ago

by benching garret anderson

seriously tho that is such a perfectly ironic comment. do you know what mister anderson’s adjusted batted runs total is for his career? 7. SEVEN. for his career

ryankrol
4 years 5 months ago

That stat is meaningless. Keep trying. Maybe someday you’ll learn how the game is actually determined.

notsureifsrs
4 years 5 months ago

i will wait for your explanation of what exactly the statistic tells you and why it is meaningless. if your next comment does not contain that explanation, i will understand you to be admitting you don’t know the answer and you’re sorry for pretending otherwise just so you could seem to have a leg-up in an argument on the internet

ryankrol
4 years 5 months ago

Hahaha! You need to get a life, son.

notsureifsrs
4 years 5 months ago

i accept your apology

ryankrol
4 years 5 months ago

You’re right. I’m sorry for arguing with a person such as yourself that has such a major mental flaw of using sabermetrics to empower yourself in order to compensate for having a low IQ. You’re really a sad addition to this site, or anything involving the game of baseball.

ryankrol
4 years 5 months ago

MLB would laugh at this guy. lol

ryankrol
4 years 5 months ago

Overrated by people who use sabermetrics to empower themselves in order to compensate for their lack of intelligence.

Commander_Nate
4 years 5 months ago

Yeah, all that airtime he got on ESPN was really overblown…

notsureifsrs
4 years 5 months ago

that sentence doesn’t mean what you think it means

Commander_Nate
4 years 5 months ago

Sarcasm detector – $25 at Wal Mart.

notsureifsrs
4 years 5 months ago

overblown adjective Of exaggerated importance; too heavily emphasized, hyped, etc

0 for 2 keep hackin

Commander_Nate
4 years 5 months ago

“…exaggerated importance” meaning that the massive amount of coverage he recieved on ESPN (or other media) was unwarranted. The sarcasm works because he rarely recieved any media coverage, even when he was having really good years.

notsureifsrs
4 years 5 months ago

“the airtime he got on ESPN was of exaggerated importance/too heavily emphasized”

what

the joke was that he wasn’t on ESPN, so the sentence [fragment] would read “yeah all that airtime he got on ESPN…” …because he didn’t get any. get it! to say that the airtime was of exaggerated importance…doesn’t even really mean anything at all actually

seriously how badly do we need opening day right now

Commander_Nate
4 years 5 months ago

Nope, it makes sense. You know what I’m talking about, the way ESPN overdoes everything for certain players (you and others mention Jeter in this thread for example). To this day, hardly a day goes by without some mention of what’s going on with Jeter, whether it’s about baseball or what he had for breakfast. Anderson never had that kind of treatment, even when he was putting up good numbers. How the media portrays things is part of our reality.

I’m not saying the guy belongs in the HOF, but you and I seem to have different definitions of “overrated” when it comes to how players are portrayed by the media and fans. In my view, Anderson was underrated in the media through the prime of his career.

notsureifsrs
4 years 5 months ago

i guess i don’t watch enough espn

ryankrol
4 years 5 months ago

LOL You actually sound like you don’t watch anything at all and just determine the game on paper. It’s okay though. I encourage people to use their imagination once in a while.

Brad426
4 years 5 months ago

Can you send me a link? I don’t see them on the web-site.

Also, if they were really at Wal-Mart they would be like $24.96.

4 years 5 months ago

Are these legit?

Commander_Nate
4 years 5 months ago

So far I’ve only been able to get it to make toast, but I’ll let you know.

(Hope this posted in the right spot this time…)

4 years 5 months ago

76,523,000 / 17 is 4.5 million per year.

The guy leads an entire franchise in games, hits, doubles, total bases, runs, extra base hits, and RBI while winning a World Series and netting 2,500 hits.

How exactly does that make him overrated?

notsureifsrs
4 years 5 months ago

counting stats? cool story. he’s a perfect example of the fact that you can play mediocre ball for quite a long time and – surprise – have high totals

.293/.324/.461 wOBA .333 wRC+ 99 check me out fellas. and give me some glory for that world series because i am a postseason stud

.245/.266/.395 wOBA .281 wRC+ 68

BAM!

ryankrol
4 years 5 months ago

All your little averages don’t prove anything other than some tendencies in Garrett Anderson as well as yourself.

MLB only cares about one thing, and one thing only: PRODUCTION!

Any team would love to have a player who averages 99 RBI’s every 162 games regardless of his OBP.

notsureifsrs
4 years 5 months ago

i so enjoy getting someone to finally admit that they don’t actually understand statistical analysis, they just use the stats they’ve heard of whenever it’s convenient

you’ve heard lots about RBI and know what it stands for, so it is right and important and good. instead of taking the opportunity to expand on that understanding and learn more about the game that you love, you’ll banish any advanced statistic that doesn’t perfectly align with your preconceptions. brilliant

i think you’ve done more here to discredit your own case than i could hope to in 10 more comments. for this i thank you

ryankrol
4 years 5 months ago

I never admitted anything. I understand statistical analysis, probably more than you do. Saying you “enjoy” getting someone to admit something they never admitted is a clear indication that you are just a stats nerd who one day discovered the use of sabermetrics in baseball, and then when you got that look in your eyes you probably thought that made you an expert. By spitting out everything BUT Run Production, you discredited your own argument the moment you even thought of it. RUN PRODUCTION is all MLB cares about.

notsureifsrs
4 years 5 months ago

“i know you are but what am i”, that it?

about this run production thing. what is your understanding of BtRuns (Adjusted Batting Runs)? 7.4 is garret anderson’s career total in that department

what is your understanding of RC (runs created)? anderson’s career RC+ is 99, which is a tick below league average

can you provide one useful measure of an individual’s performance that suggests that garret anderson was a very productive hitter over his career?

make your answer is long as you like. my *fanboy talking about advanced statistics as if he knows how they work and is so over them* bingo card is almost full!

ryankrol
4 years 5 months ago

LOL I just provided several useful measures. The boys on MLB Network just refuted everything you’re reaching for. I’ll believe former players who have actually been there and played with GA than some stats nerd who actually has the audacity to try and refute the 17 year career of a great player. Keep trying though. You might learn about the game someday. =-)

notsureifsrs
4 years 5 months ago

i wonder why you ignored the questions. it couldn’t be that you don’t know what those statistics reflect, could it? i ask again:

what is your understanding of BtRuns (Adjusted Batting Runs)? 7.4 is garret anderson’s career total in that department

what is your understanding of RC (runs created)? anderson’s career RC+ is 99, which is a tick below league average?

what is the meaning of these statistics and why are they misleading? i will tell you right now that if you can explain this to me, i will agree with you that garret anderson was a very good player. but if your next comment does not contain an explanation, i will understand you to be admitting you don’t know the answer and you’re sorry for pretending otherwise just so you could seem to have a leg-up in an argument on the internet

personally, i love baseball and furthering my understanding of it through advanced statistics has been very rewarding, despite the fact that many of the things i used to believe (and players i used to love) about the game have been proven wrong along the way. it isn’t much a bother, though, as my overall appreciation of the difficulty of the game and the talent of those who play it well has increased enormously

cool story, right? anyway i have no idea why you’d consider it more important to appear right about something than to understand it. but hey, good luck with that

ryankrol
4 years 5 months ago

You are clearly brainwashed and can’t think for yourself.

notsureifsrs
4 years 5 months ago

also pretty disingenuous to count the first 7 “seasons” during which he made 7 million under team control

after that, he made almost $70m for ~13 WAR

Commander_Nate
4 years 5 months ago

And the Yankees are paying Jeter how much now? Players get paid on past performance. That may not be the best way to do things, but it’s how it’s done.

ryankrol
4 years 5 months ago

And GA would be right there with Jeter numbers-wise if he had not missed so much time from 2004-2010.

notsureifsrs
4 years 5 months ago

jeter is enormously overrated, therefore garret anderson was not? is that the argument now?

Commander_Nate
4 years 5 months ago

No, I’m pointing out the obvious about both of their salaries. I replied to the Jeter-Anderson idea above.

notsureifsrs
4 years 5 months ago

to clarify, player’s get paid based on expected future performance, which it turn is based largely on past performance. anderson was not worth his salary in either direction, tho

i think i was pretty clear from the beginning that i don’t have anything against the guy. i don’t have any good idea of how often he was or wasn’t on television shows or in sports illustrated and i don’t really care

he wasn’t nearly as good as most people (even in this thread) say he was and he wasn’t worth nearly what he was paid

that doesn’t mean angels fans can’t or shouldn’t like him. it just means there’s no statistical argument available to defend his infinite honor

ryankrol
4 years 5 months ago

Most players, managers, GMs in MLB would laugh at you.

ryankrol
4 years 5 months ago

I’m not usually quick to point out RBI’s, but the guy’s 162 game average is 99.

It was right at 100 when he left the Angels.

Don’t be fooled by his 75-96 RBI range from 2004-2008, he actually averaged 106 during that time.

Like I said, RBI’s are not the best stat to use, but in this case it works because Garrett Anderson played on quite a few weak offensive teams in his time, and yet that somehow didn’t stop him from being very productive.

Then, there’s a stat that I need to double check, but I believe he led the Majors in Hits from 1995-2003. Derek who?

Speaking of Jeter, I can almost guarantee you that if Garrett Anderson had not missed so much time from 2004-2010, he might have approached 3,000 Hits, if not surpassed that.

Btw, this whole myth about Garrett Anderson being lazy is a bunch of ….. There was a time when GA used to run down almost every gapper that dared make it’s way into the Angels OF, meaning he didn’t really have to dive because he was fast and knew how to track a fly ball, and also always Edmonds or Erstad there to cover left center anyways. His legs were declining since 2004, and he should have been DHing a lot more than he was.

There is a LOT of info available to back up Garrett Anderson’s success.

notsureifsrs
4 years 5 months ago

“There is a LOT of info available to back up Garrett Anderson’s success. ”

so far i have RBIs, for which the rest of his teams are largely responsible. i mean you say they were weak offensive clubs – is that supposed to mean they weren’t actually on base when he hit them in? i don’t get it. if they were, he doesn’t get extra credit

do you mean he hit extra well with RISP? because he pretty much didn’t. career wOBA: .336. three point bump

so RBIs. what else? i see exactly 2 good seasons in 16 years

ryankrol
4 years 5 months ago

Go back and look at the remaining 50% of my comment that you so conveniently ignored. lol

notsureifsrs
4 years 5 months ago

i didn’t think i was supposed to take the rest seriously

…hits? he was a contact hitter without much power who refused to take a walk. his career OBP is below league average. his wOBA is .333. he was a very mediocre hitter who played for a long time

he was a solid defender for the first half of his career, but because he had so little power and couldn’t get on base, his overall value wasn’t much save for two years out of 16

ryankrol
4 years 5 months ago

Actually, you were afraid to argue against the rest because you know it refutes your argument by a couple of touchdowns.

You can sit there and try to sell your little averages as knowledge all you want to, but the fact remains that Hits, Doubles, Homeruns, RBIs, and Runs — all of which GA consistently produced — all equal the one thing that MLB only cares about in the end: PRODUCTION!

Any player who can manage averaging 99 RBI every 162 with only an average of 21 HR is probably a good !@#$ing clutch hitter.

notsureifsrs
4 years 5 months ago

the fact remains that Hits, Doubles, Homeruns, RBIs, and Runs — all of which GA consistently produced — all equal the one thing that MLB only cares about in the end: PRODUCTION!

do you know why this is funny for other people? because my “little average” (wOBA) not only accounts for all those hits, but it weights them properly. it reflects the quality, not just the fact that a hit happened. surely you don’t think all hits are of equal value? a single is as valuable as a home run?

so among other things, wOBA adjusts for the differences in the value of these hits (and of walks). it gives you a much clearer picture of how a hitter contributed – of what he PRODUCED – than batting average or hits or RBI or runs or any counting stat you can think of

and what does wOBA tell us? at .333 garret anderson just wasn’t a very good hitter. the end

and there are other ways to corroborate this. linear weights are delightful and illuminating. but why learn about this stuff if it is only going to burst your delusion bubbles, eh? garret anderson was great and derek jeter is GOLD GLOVER DAMN IT. oo-rah!

ryankrol
4 years 5 months ago

Wrong again, nerd.

TigersAndBraves
4 years 5 months ago

Thank God. We have sanity back in baseball.

All you little WAR and wOBA people, there’s a reason that production has been measured in avg, RBI, HR, ERA, etc. for the last 80 years.

ARod's Ring
4 years 5 months ago

please grab a bat, go to a batting cage and try to hit at 90MPH…

notsureifsrs
4 years 5 months ago

yea what i meant was that he is overrated compared to the average person who doesn’t play baseball

you showed me

ryankrol
4 years 5 months ago

Actually you were proven wrong a long time ago. But we expect trolls like you to try and infiltrate these threads, so whatever. =-)

start_wearing_purple
start_wearing_purple
4 years 5 months ago

I looked up your stat. You were correct, Anderson lead the league in hits from 1995-2003, so sayeth fangraphs. I admit I was a little surprised.

I’m not going to get into the whole overrated/underrated argument too deeply because ultimately it’s going to be in the eye of the beholder. However I will say this: I know a lot of people consider this guy to be an elite player, that I completely disagree with. For a guy who spent a large amount of his career in left to end with a 102 OPS+ is amazingly low for anything to be considered “elite”. Overall, I personally believe the guy to be a slightly above average player, little more.

ryankrol
4 years 5 months ago

Leading the Majors in Hits from 1995-2003 should count for a lot. I mean, how do you score Runs again?

In 17 seasons, GA averaged 99 RBI, 38 Doubles, 79 Runs.

A player’s status is not solely determined by his OPS+.

MLB only cares about one thing: Production.

$7562574
4 years 5 months ago

if you revive babe ruth now he will be the worst player in his 100’s.

NathanielS
4 years 5 months ago

I respected the hell out of him, class act.

blurnandez
4 years 5 months ago

Solid career.

Good luck in retirement, Garret!

Commander_Nate
4 years 5 months ago

Farewell and good luck, GA. Dude was the Angels to me growing up in the 90’s along with Tim Salmon and a few others. Game 7, 2002 “Anderson clears the bases!” I’ll always remember that.

Man, I’m starting to get old.

4 years 5 months ago

I can literally feel you getting old right now.

NathanielS
4 years 5 months ago

I had the same thought, other Nate. I’ve been following this dude since I was 13, now he retired! I still have thirty/fourty years.

Jeff
4 years 5 months ago

Class act, but the definition of overpaid replacement player. His role will now be taken over by Jeff Franceour.

ryankrol
4 years 5 months ago

LOL How is that exactly? It’s clear that you and a few others know absolutely nothing Garrett Anderson.

4 years 5 months ago

Should have hung em up a while back.

ryankrol
4 years 5 months ago

Why?

PushDown
4 years 5 months ago

Definitely wished he had ended his career with the Halos.

Gumby65
4 years 5 months ago

If I’m not mistaken, the last California Angel to hang em up?

Commander_Nate
4 years 5 months ago

So far, I’ve only been able to get it to make toast, but I’ll let you know.

Commander_Nate
4 years 5 months ago

Bah, reply fail.

Commander_Nate
4 years 5 months ago

So far, I’ve only been able to get it to make toast, but I’ll let you know.

Guest
4 years 5 months ago

Yeah last year was so much fun!

4 years 5 months ago

give m a one day contract Reagins!

4 years 5 months ago

careful, with Reagins that’s still like 2.3mil.

4 years 5 months ago

He had a good career for the Angels, I wish him the best.

BlueSkyLA
BlueSkyLA
4 years 5 months ago

Can you feel the love yet, Garret?

Guest
4 years 5 months ago

Comments being deleted??. GIT SOME!!

ryankrol
4 years 5 months ago

I just watched the boys on MLB Network giving Garrett Anderson nothing but love. The words “great player” must have come out of their mouths about 20 times.

Fact check: From 1995-2003, GA led the Majors in both Hits AND Doubles.

4 years 5 months ago

Unless you’re a lifetime Angel fan like myself and others on this thread, you’re free to drink the haterade, he wasn’t your franchise leader, that’s fine.

As for myself, I’ll always remember 2002, the 10 RBI game vs the Yankees, the 2003 Home Run Derby and silver slugger, and the Angels all-time leader in games, hits, RBI, doubles, runs, extra base hits, and total bases.

I’m grateful to have grown up watching this guy play ball for my team and it’s sad that the outfield I grew up rooting for is now entirely retired.

darkhoarse820
4 years 5 months ago

I told a friend (an Angels fan) yesterday that I felt sorry for him BECAUSE he was on the Dodgers last year. He clearly didn’t have his stuff anymore and you can trace that back to his last year with Anaheim. He did poorly then, he did even worse in Atlanta and he just plain suffered here in Los Angeles last year. The fans hated him and it would remind me of the scene with Darryl Strawberry crying in the Simpsons episode, where the fans just booed him to death. Yes, he went out on a sour note, but you cannot knock him for that after fifteen years of legendary performance. I hate the Angels, but he stood out as someone to watch, regardless of what I like and don’t like. Dodger fans should be ashamed they treated him the way I saw them treat him.

BlueSkyLA
BlueSkyLA
4 years 5 months ago

Once upon a time, fans almost never booed anyone on their own team (except in Philly). I’ve always disliked that kind of fan behavior and so I’m dismayed that it’s caught on around the leagues and a little ashamed that any fan frustration was directed at Anderson. I felt sorry for Anderson and although he was obviously doing nothing for the team or himself, anybody who cared to knew he was once a fine player. Nobody with any ounce of soul wants to see someone like him come to such an ignominious end.

Israel Piedra
4 years 5 months ago

Very good, not great, player who probably overperformed his talent level. His numbers were approaching HOF marks.

ryankrol
4 years 5 months ago

Any player who can average 99 RBI against just an average of 21 HR, while only having a career .324 OBP is a great clutch hitter.

4 years 5 months ago

Man you’re dumb. Keep drinking the Kool-Aid…