« Rockies Talking To Redman, Trachsel | Main | Cardinals Sign Cesar Izturis »

Mets Trade Milledge To Nats For Schneider And Church

According to SNY via Metsblog as well as WFAN, the Mets have traded Lastings Milledge to the Nationals for Brian Schneider and Ryan Church.

Initial thought: sweet deal by Jim Bowden.  Milledge, who turns 23 in April, has star potential or at least will become an above average right fielder (though he should be tried in center unless he's terrible there).  The 31 year-old Schneider is strong defensively, but he doesn't hit.  The 29 year-old Church has a career OPS over .800, and may be a bit underrated.  But he is 29 and not likely to get much better.  He's quite a ways away from free agency, at least.

I'm just surprised Milledge couldn't net more. 

TrackBack

TrackBack URL for this entry:
http://www.typepad.com/t/trackback/447826/23824700

Listed below are links to weblogs that reference Mets Trade Milledge To Nats For Schneider And Church:

Comments

I'm furious as a Mets fan... how can he trade one of his best chips for a mediocre OF and mediocre C? WTF is he thinking? The A's better want Church and Estrada in a deal for atleast blanton.. Omar, you blew it.. thanks...

April 1st again? I was a Mets fan growing up (now an Astros fan), but if true, this has "Kazmir" written all over it. Don't get me wrong, Schneider and Church are both solid major league regulars. But it seems like the Mets could have gotten considerably more for Milledge!

Heck, the Astros should have been able to get Milledge as part of a Lidge trade if this is all it took!

Someone, please kill me... Omar Minaya truly has no idea what he is doing anymore. What a stupid f*cking trade...

Obviously a joke post... Good one, Tim.

*snickers*

Looking at Minaya's track record, this probably means Milledge will turn out to be a great OF who hits .300/.400/.600.

well this was an odd move....orginally the mets were in discussion of zito/milledge werent they? now its church/estrada for milledge?

sure barry zito is not really much of a big gamer anywhere, how can you compare church/estrada trade to the zito trade?

That was unexpected, Nats should have a real outfield if they sign Andruw too. Does nothing for their pitching problems though.

Kazmir? Are the Rays really high on Church/Schneider?

My "Kazmir" comment was referring to a past Mets trade in which they traded an extremely exciting prospect (Kazmir) for trash (Victor Zambrano).

Land-Man,
They are referring to the infamous trade where the Mets traded away Scott Kazmir.

From what I heard, the A's and O's said they didn't want Milledge which is why Minaya unfortunately pulled the trigger. I'm a Red Sox fan first and this garbage made me wanna throw up. I'm just shocked by this trade.

I have defended Omar from day 1 - but this is unacceptable. You don't trade away one of our best prospects just because other teams don't want him...you play him!

Yeah! Go Mets! As a Braves guy, these are the trades I like to see.

The Mets were never as high on Milledge as their fans were though, and Schneider is pretty much better, if only a little, than any other catcher they could have gotten right now, but I'm still not really sure why this happened at all.

Has Jim Bowden transformed into a good GM? He's owned a couple people on trades in the last few years.

I am laughing so hard my sides hurt.
Well, I guess this is one way to establish parity in the game ... really really stupid trades.
Mets fans should revolt; Minaya has 2 huge blunders under his belt. These things come in threes, you know!

Milledge is highly overrated. If this deal is true... than the Mets got a good deal.

Milledge was highly though of as a prospect because he was viewed as a prospect with all the tools. Similar to Fernando Martinez... who just like Lastings Milledge has yet to hit for power. Martinez on the other hand can steal a base.

Milledge at the moment is Todd Hollandsworth like. Acquiring a starting outfielder... and a starting catcher for him isn't a bad deal..

Who the F is going to play LF? Ryan Church? Omar, I thought you knew what you were doing. This is Lenny Dykstra all over again. A division rival....good job.

To think I just put a deposit on a ticket plan two days ago.

I am screeming inside right now.

This is what happens when you overmarket a product...Nobody wants it anymore and you have to put it in the bargain bin. There has always been something so desperate about the Milledge rumors, and hopefully for him he can just settle in and play some games without feeling like Minyana's whore. The Mets are annoying.

For the Nationals, I really like this trade and what their future holds in store - at least offensively. A lineup of Lopez, Milledge, Johnson, Zimmerman, Kearns, Pena/Young, Belliard and Flores seems like a strong core with a bright future.
The pitching leaves a lot to be desired unless Patterson can return to form.

For the Mets, they needed a catcher, and Milledge didn't appear to be in their present of future plans. Church should be able to be an above average replacement player.

Essentially, another win-win in my books.

Now the Mets have no choice but to included Gomez in a deal for Haren or Blanton if they want any realistic chance of nabbing either of them.

Plus, what happens with Estrada now? What an odd move this is - and to a division rival, no less.

Schneider will be 31 next season and a catcher. Church will be 29 next season. Schneider is likely to decline and Church is not likely to improve much.

Even for catchers, Schneider is a below league average at the plate. And Church was barely a starter.

Milledge will be 23 with a huge upside.

Plus, Washington is in the same division as the Mets.

Does this make any sense to anyone other than Minaya?

People can argue for lastings being overrated or underrated all they want to. The fact is that the guy has a real shot at being a 20/15-20 guy who will hit for a respectable average, so he will be a regular for a long time. With that being said, this trade really does not make sense. Lastings is probably already better than church, and estrada is comparable to schneider in terms of value (estrada's offense and schneider's defense.) This was a bad trade for minaya, even if he could not use milledge as the centerpiece of an offer to get a major player, he could have at least hung onto him. This seems more like a move just to remove milledge from the equation than anything.

My ass is not leaving this seat until I find out this isnt true.

I should edit my comment.

Minaya wasn't responsible for the Kazmir fiasco.

Anyone else think this might be a preemptive move to set up a deal with the Athletics.

Ryan Church and Brian Schneider seem like guys that Billy Beane might want.

A good, versatile OF with good OBP in Church and an affordable catcher (that the Mets could probably give salary relief for) who can help mentor Kurt Suzuki until he's ready to play full-time.

I think Minaya could definitely use those two as trading chips.

@jza:

Why would Beane want two (relatively) old guys for say... Blanton, Haren or Street?

He probably wants blue-chip prospects for each one of them, not a 29 year old OF and 31 year old catcher.

I like the "Nails" comment ... you're definitely right, papabell

Lmao, he may use them as trading chips, but those two in no way can have more value to beane than milledge had for obvious reasons. Age,upside, cheap production, more talent all go in milledge's favor. There is now way either church or schneider give the mets any better position to get haren or blanton.

Why would Beane want Church and Schneider if he didnt want Milledge?

Sorry Steeeve....i guess you will be glued to your seat forever lol

its confirmed on WFAN now in NY

For people who are down on Milledge, why? He hit .272/.341/.446 as a 22-year-old in the majors (albeit only 184 at-bats). He seems to have some personality issues, but he's only 22. Most people have personality issues when they are 22 and he obviously hasn't reached his power peak.

yeah I'm sure those 2 are wonderful trading chips

a bug of ruffles would be better

Thinking about it a little more, if these guys are used for trades, Minaya got decent value because there were no other takers for Milledge.
More likely, this is just a sign of the Mets impotence from bottom to top.

You Mets fans need to take a deep breath and step back from this. Let's look at the facts.

Milledge is over rated. He has been injury prone in his five years in the minors. His best season in the minors was 15 hr's and 66 rbi's. That's NOT a top prospect. Couple that with a perceived attitude problem and the media has completely overblown his future potential and his current value.

Brian Schneider is one of the top defensive catchers in all of baseball, plus he's a lefthanded bat that can also hit a bit. That makes him rare and valuable, especially in the current market when there are no decent catchers available. It's not like there are half a dozen teams with Mike Piazza like production at catcher. Schenider will drive in 50+ runs and throw out 27-40% of baserunners. Estrada last year threw out 8%. Loduca threw out 19%.

Church is an established big leaguer with a .348 career obp and a .462 career slugging. He's just waiting for the chance to be an everyday player, but even in a platoon last year he hit .287/.360/.506 vs. rhp. That's far better than Milledge's line of .250/.309/.395 vs rhp's in the majors last season.

Plus, both Schneider and Church are signed to inexpensive contracts, which increases their value to the Mets to keep or to trade. But I would expect they'll keep Schneider and probably Church too.

From my point of view, Minaya and the Mets got the better part of this trade picking up two valuable players for one question mark with a history of poor run production and injuries.

I agree the Milledge is over-rated by fans - as all prospects are.

Schneider is a good catcher who helps the Mets now. Milledge has been spotty at the plate in his time with the Mets. There's nothing to get worked up over, here. If there are doubts about a prospect, trade him when you aren't sure if he'll be a bust, not when everyone knows he is (not saying Millage will be a bust).

Washington is a division rival in the loosest sense of the term. Their best pitcher is Matt Chico.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

Omar, Omar, Omar, what are you doing?

Why couldn't he just do the package deal with Beane and Bowdin if that was the case.

I can't see why Beane would want Church over Lastings. Lastings is slightly better Church now and will be a lot better in the future, and cheaper as well.

I also think that Lastings will blossom with less pressure on him in D.C.

I am so pissed right now.

henry14theking:

Oh, by no means am I saying they'd be the focal point of the deal. Maybe Mike Pelfrey would be one.

But I think that Beane (and many other GMs) are just not that high on Milledge and just don't want to deal with his drama (much like people are avoiding Barry Bonds at the moment).

Beane has to be looking for catching options at the moment to support Suzuki and he also has to be worried about his OF depth with both Kotsay and Buck recovering from injuries and the lack of fielding prowess in Cust.

At some point last season something happened to cause Minaya and others in the Mets front office to sour on Milledge. I suppose this shows they won't be players for either of the big name pitchers available, Santana or Bedard. Because now they cant afford to deal both Gomez and Martinez. I guess Gomez won the right to be the OF'er the Mets want to play right now.

Could possibly go down as the worst trade in history!!!

WTF is Omar smoking?

Hemingways, please see Bravesbeat's comment's.

Oh, and Lastings was only injured once last year because he got hit by a pich. Jeter, Thor, Beowulf, or even yourself would have been on the DL.
Can you please cite any article that underscore his injury concearns? He might have an attitude problem, but not an injury problem. I think you are confusing Beltran with Lastings.

Do you mean to tell me that Minaya din't have a better offer for Milledge?

If you want to sell low on Milledge, you better at least get 50 cents on the dollar. Hell, "cash considerations" would have generated a better fan reaction that Church or Schneider.

It really is amazing how fans view a prospect that shows any sign of potential as the next Mantle.

You'd think hitting .350 in the minors practically guarantees a trip to Cooperstown.

You could not have been right PrahaSMC.

"Do you mean to tell me that Minaya din't have a better offer for Milledge?"

If there was a better offer, wouldn't logic dictate that he would take it?

So, no, there probably wasn't a better offer for Milledge in Minaya's eyes

Milledge didn't appear to be in their present of future plans

He was supposed to be the starting RF, for God's sake!

i dont like this trade. and i especially dont like when we send a player with this potential to a team in our division. however, i dont feel bad about not having milledge on our team. he's a loose cannon, a little self destructive and has the potential to cause clubhouse problems. he also mad me nervous everytime a fly ball was hit to him, never looked totally comfortable like he couldnt get a good read off the bat. im not even talking about his misplays in boston. i do wish we got pitching but at least we got two proven major leaguers, our outfeild is in good shape and we have a catcher to trade. so the question is, what does minaya have planned? he must be stocking up on catchers for a reason.

Well, then he should have held on to Millege then. There's no way to spin this... it's not like Church has exceptional on-base ability either, he's got a career .348 OBP.

Don't think this is a precursor for another trade. If so, why not make it a three-way and be assured of the deal going down.

Omar wanted these guys. Sure they may get flipped. Just wouldn't count on it.

"Rosenthal says that the Mets offered Johnny Estrada to the Nats in the trade, free of charge, but that the Nats preferred to look elsewhere for a Schneider replacement."

Snicker!

If you project Milledge's numbers to 470 ABs (the number Church had), he'd have practically identical numbers to Church. And he's 6 years younger.

This trade makes sense... why? If no one is buying, dont sell low, KEEP HIM!

I thought Minaya would prefer a package of Cristian Guzman and Jesus Flores.

Wow! Remember a couple of years ago when the Mets were trying to get Manny Ramirez for Lastings Milledge? Wow!

I have seen a ass whoppin' like this since the, hmmm,,,,Bowden vs. Reds GM Krivsky trade. Hey, Omar, I hope they come with all of the ammunizations, shots, medical history, x-rays, and a year supply of cortizone.

I don't know if I like the trade, but in the dispute about who Beane would want, I think we're forgetting the basic fundamentals of what Beane considers a good player. Milledge is everything that Beane does not want--unproven potential. A guy like Church who at least has shown can keep a decent OBP in the bigs at a reasonable price, is much closer to the Beane make-up. Revisit your copies of _Moneyball_ people.

"If you project Milledge's numbers to 470 ABs (the number Church had), he'd have practically identical numbers to Church. And he's 6 years younger."

No, he wouldn't.

Milledge can't hit or get on-base against RHP's.

If you want to accurately reflect Milledge's performance, you have to do so using the number of AB's an average player faces RHP and LHP.

Milledge received a 1/3 of his ABs against LHP which isn't artificially inflates his numbers.

Mr punch.... i was about to mention the exact same thing , look at what can change in a few short years huh? go from the centerpiece for one of the best right handed hitters of our generation , and sure fire hall of famer , to ryan church and schnieder...wow , nice work omar , i guess the mets arent going to be in the running for any of the big name SP's on the market

Forgot to add "the norm" after "Milledge received a 1/3 of his ABs against LHP which isn't "

It should read

Milledge received a 1/3 of his ABs against LHP which isn't the norm and artificially inflates his numbers

Man...what are the mets thinking? Way too much potential to give away there. Unless they spin this move for barton or santana...bad move for the mets.

Conorj:

I agree with you 100%

Remember when Beane signed Scott Hatteberg?

As a Mets fan I absolutely despise this trade. If no one wanted Milledge this offseason, you play him in 08 and try to upgrade his value. You don't trade him for a mediocre catcher and a so-so 4th outfielder. I just cannot justify this trade from any point of view.

I don't care what people say: if we packaged Milledge with Pelfrey/Humber, we could've gotten a front-line starter. This trade is a joke. I'm sick of hearing about "The Mets are big on Livan Hernandez", or "Carlos Silva might be an attractive option." This is New Fucking York. Can we please have some balls and get an impact pitcher to put this team over the edge?

Sorry for rambling, I simply cannot contain my disgust over this trade. Grade F!

The Mets are just making moves for the sake of making moves now. Another catcher? One of the top prospects in your farm? Division rival? Being a Braves fan, I smiled and shook my head in disbelief. Minaya is the best player on the Marlins, Nats, Braves, and Phils.

"Can we please have some balls and get an impact pitcher to put this team over the edge?"

Jose Contreras "impacted" 15 batters last year. I'm hoping the Mets trade for him.

It's interesting if you look at their minor league history.

Here are the minor league lines for Church and Milledge

(C) 292/375/506/881
(M) 305/385/479/864

Granted, Church took much longer get through the minors but it's interesting just how close their numbers were.

Church has played essentially one more full season of big league games than Milledge. So far though, his stats are quite a bit better:

(C) 271/348/462/810
(M) 257/326/414/740

Milledge does have some SB speed which Church doesn't. Milledge comes with some rumored baggage. The Mets also land a solid defensive catcher.

I just don't see this being a bad trade for either team. I think the Mets could have gotten more for Milledge but I'm just not sold on his upside. Milledge could very well turn out to be a .280 hitter with 10 HR's and 15 SB's.

The Nationals are a division rival to the Mets just as much as the Baltimore Orioles are a division rival to the Red Sox.

They're in the same division, but there's really no rivalry nor any worry that the team will challenge them

The Mets obviously (and correctly) think they're close this year. Why play Milledge to up his value if it hurts the team? Church is a better hitter, now. Schneider is a better catcher, now. The team is now in better shape for a run at the series - irrespective of any other moves they make.

Bowden isn't looking to be so stupid these days is he? There's been some nice pieces he's picked up over the last couple seasons without giving up anything that really matters.

I didn’t have a chance to read all the comments yet, but WTF???

Ok, so Lastings has the ability (which he has shown already) to be much better than Church. Yet bringing in Ryan and yet *another* catcher (this one being 31 already) is a good move? In a worst case scenario Lastings was the one of Milledge/Martinez/Gomez most likely to be kept because the other two could be dealt for upgrades elseware (ie pitching) ~ but now they *Must* keep atleast one of Martinez/Gomez limiting their options in trade. And just to add a lesser OFer and yet another Catcher?

Somebody has to tell this guy to just sign LoDuca today already ~ not having him is making him go insane. And yeah, LoDuca in 08 would be better than what he might do to the club since he doesn’t have PLD. Whats next, Jose Reyes for Ramon Hernandez?

Hey, as long as we're trading for has-been prospects who never really were, I hear Austin Kearns and Bobby Kielty are available. Maybe we can rig up a sweet deal for a potent offensive catcher like Jason Kendall while we're in a transactional kind of mood. Who knows, maybe we can even bring back Julio Franco and Rickey Henderson for another go 'round!!! Sky's the limit, gentlemen!

Here's an interesting Ryan Church tidbit, from our friends at baseball-reference.com:

January 5, 2004: Traded by the Cleveland Indians with Maicer Izturis to the Montreal Expos for Scott Stewart.

The GM of the Expos at the time......you guessed it.


I am not at all convinced that Ryan Church will be better "now" than Lastings Milledge. It would have been Milledge's first full season in the majors. He had a few nice streaks last year that energized the team, including some clutch hits.

Now, some of these comments suggest that Church fits the profile of someone Beane wants. I'm not sure I believe that, but if it's true, I will forgive Omar for this trade. But only then. If this is not part of a bigger, better move, this is a disgrace.

Nats have Dmiti Young, Logan, Milledge, Kearns, Willy Mo all in the OF now. Do they really need Andruw?

Wow. Ha. Loving Omar right now. This really limits what the Mets can do in a trade for a SP now that one of their main chips is gone.

New York prospects tend to be overhyped. Milledge has been heavily touted (he may or may not pan out). Heilman was supposed to be the 2nd coming. Yankees fans think Melky is a new Bernie and Joba, in spite of having only pitched 24 innings in the bigs is the next Mo Rivera.

The Mets need to contend and they need to do it now. Church has great gap power in the cavern called RFK, which should translate to 20+ homers in Shea (which favors lefties).

Schneider is a no-hit catcher, but lets face it, Lo Duca hits for a hollow avgs. He has no speed. He's good for 60 runs/60 rbis tops. Schneider ought to match Lo Duca in rbi and will come in 15-20 runs fewer. He ought to make up some of that with kick butt defense and a great arm vs Lo Duca's candy arm.

touch this guy with a 10-foot pole! He has shown very little maturity in his short stay in the majors.


Remember, this guy was supposed to be a top three pick in the 2003 draft, and slid to 12th because of a report of "misconduct"... and then it turns out EVEN MORE "misconduct" stories surfaced *after* the Mets drafted Milledge. Add in the rap record, the high-5 thing, not running out plays, in general, no hustle. I'll bet Randolph was LOOKING for excuses not to play him last year. Just not his kind of guy.


For his own sake, I honestly hope this kid matures. I hope his locker isn't next to Dmitri Young's locker!


For those that think Milledge will be younger and cheaper, well, Church is clearly older, but Church made $400,000 last year, same as Milledge. Church and Schneider are lefties, which will help. Church may finally get a chance, like Nady did when he came to NY.

Sidebar: Didn't the Nats let Endy Chavez go a few years back because they thought Church would replace him?

Just to keep the numbers in perspective. Schneider had a higher OBP than Lo Duca last year. Church had better numbers than Milledge. And both of those were in the Nats lineup (okay, but no great shakes). Milledge had the advantage of hitting in a great lineup.

What do you think? If the Mets played all of last year with Schneider and Church, do they finish one game better than the Phils? (Answer: Yes!)

@ zippy06...Milledge missed 7 weeks with a broken foot immediately after being sent to AAA last April. He played about two weeks before being promoted. He also missed six weeks in 2004 with a broken bone in his right hand, and hamstring pulls in 2005 and 2006. He's NOT Cal Ripken or Lou Gehrig.

I think Minaya is getting fair value for an often-injured, potential problem.

I don't think anything specifically happened last year to have the Mets sour on him.

Is everyone forgetting (or doesn't know) about this guy's background?

Could Milledge wind up being the Lawrence Phillips of MLB...(from the Rams a few years back)? OK, that might be a harsh comparison, but if I were playing GM, I wouldn't touch this guy with a 10-foot pole! He has shown very little maturity in his short stay in the majors.


Remember, this guy was supposed to be a top three pick in the 2003 draft, and slid to 12th because of a report of "misconduct"... and then it turns out EVEN MORE "misconduct" stories surfaced *after* the Mets drafted Milledge. Add in the rap record, the high-5 thing, not running out plays, in general, no hustle. I'll bet Randolph was LOOKING for excuses not to play him last year. Just not his kind of guy.


For his own sake, I honestly hope this kid matures. I hope his locker isn't next to Dmitri Young's locker!


For those that think Milledge will be younger and cheaper, well, Church is clearly older, but Church made $400,000 last year, same as Milledge. Church and Schneider are lefties, which will help. Church may finally get a chance, like Nady did when he came to NY.

Sidebar: Didn't the Nats let Endy Chavez go a few years back because they thought Church would replace him?

Couldn't they just have kept Estrada and Milledge rather than Scheneider and Church? That would've made alot more sense.

One fishy thing about this IS the timing. It seems you could pick up Church and Schneider any old day, but before the major pieces of the trade market fall? Makes me think they might keep Schneider and spin Church in a bigger deal. Either that or it shows the Mets have moved on from landing anyone big and are filling in some gaps with efficient contracts--which really doesn't fit in with the Mets of the past few years. Hmmmmm....

some of you guys are insane. why would beane want church instead of milledge? milledge is actually exactly the type of player beane loves: underrated for irrelevant reasons (attitude). and milledge is not unproven potential. he raked all through the minors and held his own at 22 in the majors. how many of those players fail? 1% maybe? and he raked against rhp all through the minors, too; don't let the small sample sizes in the majors at 22 effing years old fool you. and please let's not compare church's minor league record with milledge's, since milledge left aaa for good at 21 and church was still there through his mid 20s. milledge has been completely and systematically mishandled by the mets, who allowed the media to tar him unfairly because of his attitude and jerked him around for the last year and a half by never trusting him or allowing him to play when he was clearly ready, and this is just the last chapter in a long book of how completely moronic the mets' use/treatment of milledge was. great move for the nats. (btw, how the hell did jim effing bowden fleece minaya?) great move for milledge.

Is Estrada traded along with Lastings Milledge??
The post doesn't mention anything about him.

This is hilarious. Maybe now all the Milledge/Minaya nutsuckery from Mets fans will finally stop. Only Mets fans liked Milledge, and most of them clearly never saw how badly low breaking balls embarrassed him regularly.

SO. The Mets a couple of years ago wanted Zito, and did not gave up Milledge.

Zito would have probably made a huge difference that year. Imagine Zito starting instead of Traschel.

And now they trade him for garbage.

OMG

Very surprising. Maybe just because I live in NY so I heard all the Blastings Thrilledge hype before he came up.

Obviously his value plummeted and the Mets were really dying to move him. Remember when he was going to be the centerpiece of a Roy Oswalt deal?

@ the milledge haters

He has a career minor league line of .305/.385/.479 (.864 OPS).

His major league numbers aren't as impressive, but the kid is friggin 22 years old. He showed great improvement from 2006 to 2007.

I don't care if the rest of the league has "soured" on him. That doesn't mean you trade him away for two mediocre 30 year olds.

A Castro/Estrada and Milledge tandem would EASILY outperform Schneider/Church.

Omar... get the hell out of NY. You and Isiah both.

anybody have any imput on the cards signing of Cesear Izturus?

Grady sizemore part 2 :)

This is pretty funny

I am waiting for the mets fans posts of "I wont trade Milledge for Haren or Blanton"

congrats you got a 30+ year old catcher :) Even though I think church will be a nice 4th OF

Yeah, Church will be a great 4th outfielder.

What Omar fails to realize is that Milledge is a STARTING OUTFIELDER.

What an idiot.

Next Up: Reyes/Gomez/Martinez for Santana?

The issue isn't whether or not Milledge was overhyped. He was a talented cheap young OF with potential. You don't trade that for a catcher on the wrong side of 30 and a 4th OF.

Oh wait... I have it figured out. They traded Milledge away because they were tired of their fans talking about how great he is. That's gotta be it.

Milledge for Chad Cordero, last trade deadline.

Why not then Omar?

JerseyMetFan,

How soon you forget. What about the Maine/Benson swap? Trading poo for Luis Castillo?

Sounds like you got caught up in they NY hype machine. The player development road is littered with Milledge type guys who didn't pan out. Even Estrada isn't all that. He's a Lo Duca clone -- hollow avg hitter who is a defensive liability. These slow, no power catchers are good for no more than 60 runs/rbis. Even Schneider will be good for 50/60, especially in a much better line up and better fit park, but with much better def.

With a little more seasoning, Milledge could be the second coming of Milton Bradley.

And Estrada - have the overraters heard enough to realize that he has no value whatsoever?

Hey, Sorta related

Do You guys think that this means that Bowden is not going to try and get Elijah Dukes from the Rays now ??????

I really hope he still goes for it especially since Dukes, i think, is going to be waaay better then Milledge.

Also he just adds to all the bad attitudes -- and if bad attitudes win games, then the nationals will be set with all the pro-stars they got.

I dont like this trade much at all, but it isnt horrible. Schneider is getting older but you guys have to realize this guy is a stud defensively and calls an awesome game behind the plate. Church I guess is our outfield replacement. I dont like it, but we now have a very good catcher to call games for us atleast. And we wont have to sign an expensive RF. Eghh, i just hate to see Lastings go. Good luck kid. To whoever said the Nats should sign Andruw now, why? The just got a CF for 5 cheap years.

And for the record, this trade is miles better then a Chad Coredro swap would have been. Cordero is probably the most overated relief pitcher in the MLB.

maybe it's a huge blind spot on my part, but how many prospects who rake throughout the minors and post above average batting lines in the majors at 22 flame out? i can't think of any off the top of my head.

very bad move by the mets.lastings in 184 at bats approx,i think hit 7 hr and 29 rbi.that is projected over a full season to hit 21 hr and 90 rbi and he is only 23 yrs old soon and he will probably get better.i understand trading him because the mets have a surplus of young outfield prospects but you have to trade him for something you need,starting pitcher or bullpen.why trade him for a catcher and outfielder that won't play much?they could of kept loduca and kept milledge and would have been in the same position.this might hurt the mets chances for obtaining other needs.they should of packaged him for a starter or bullpen help.this trade makes no sense and most agree.

Wow, talk about overreacting! Was this the best decision from Omar about Lastings? Probably not. Is it the end of the Mets franchise? No way. This isn't a horrible trade (yet) but it's not a great trade either. The Mets did get a very solid catcher (bye bye Estrada) and a pretty decent OF. The Nats got a potential very good OF, but one who also might bomb. I have a feeling this will be one of those trades you can only decide about in about 3 seasons or so. But right now? Not the worst thing.

Omar's bringing in some of 'his guys' from the Expos I guess.

Away from the cavernous confines of that stupid Washington ballpark, Church managed
.342 .506 .278 last year

I expext that he will make a good showing for the Mets.

Wow, I wanst crazy about the trade but to look at some of your comments, jesus christ. We just got a top 5 defensive catcher in baseball, which cannot be taken lightly. It wasnt a coincidence that although that Nats pitching staff was horrible, they atleast competed, even though NONE of their starters are above AAA talent. I would have liked to get this guy without Milledge, but whatever, shyt happens. It isnt an awful deal, it just hurts because we are Milledge fans. I am thinking what this can possibly do for Maine and Perez and some of our other youngsters, and on the bright side, now we dont have to choose Milledge or Gomez. Look, right now I am frustrated and will miss lastings, but those who are calling this Kazmir 2, wow. A bunch of little babies, atleast wait until the season starts, and when Scneider is holding Rollins and Hanley at first base because of his cannon then you guys will be glad that he is back there and not lo duca/ estrada. A strong defensive catcher with the ability to call a game is a pretty important thing in baseball. The mets just went from right hand batter heavy to left hand batter heavy now.

Reyes
Castillo
Wright
Beltran
Alou
Delgado
Church
Schneider

That is a solid lineup, with Ramon playing against lefties. It surprises me a little bit the in division trade. The person who said we traded him to a divisional contender... lol, the nats, contend? Anyway, what is also funny is that all the sudden tons of guys who have been calling Milledge overated for days, months, maybe even years, have now come out to talk about how awful this trade was for the Mets, since now that Milledge is gone, he is a superstart type prospect again. Just pretty funny.

Church is also a nice little player, and it makes it nice that we wont have to spend big bucks on a free agent. Anybody saying that this deal will make the Mets worse for 2008 is absolutely out of their skull. This gives them a great defensive catcher which they havent had forever, and its not like lo duca put up huge numbers that will take a nose dive with schneider. Milledge wont be better then these 2 guys in 08. He probably will be down the road, because he has come nowhere close to fulfilling his potential yet. I love the pickups, just hate that Milledge had to go.

I checked Church's splits and while he's platoon fodder, he slugs .500 vs righties, which is as good as David Wright and Beltran. Better than Alou, Green and Delgado. Also, he hits with good power more akin to Wright than Green. Shea is more generous to the lefty than RFK, so he ought to get a slight bump.

It's a better deal than you think. The hang up is probably because Milledge has been so hyped up, but you don't even know who Ryan Church is.

some things to point out...

Billy Beane was obsessed with OBP because it was the most undervalued offensive trait around. Now that it's gaining value, he's moving back to normal all-around players. He's interested in the best player values, not the best OBP guys anymore.

I think when you look back at this deal, it's going to look a lot worse for the Mets than if they dealt him to say Boston or LA or a big media city. Milledge is good friends with Manny Acta from his Mets days (from the Nationals.com story) and will have Dmitri Young to mentor him. If he gets in trouble the DC media won't roast him because they're too involved with politics. If Milledge turns out being a star, he could singlehandedly get blacks in DC excited about baseball.

Milledge has posted a 257/326/414/740 major league line. I don't think that is an "above average" batting line for a corner outfielder.

A 740 OPS would have ranked him 15th out of 17 in LF and 21st out of 22 in RF. Min 400 AB's.

Sure he is young. Sure he posted a couple of very solid years in the minors. BUT - guys like Milledge are a dime a dozen. Some pan out - some fall flat.

I don't think it was the best trade the Mets could have made. But it isn't as bad as everyone think. I'll put money on Church hitting 280 with 20HR's and a bunch of doubles. Schnieder will help the pitching staff with his defense and play calling.

I do agree with another poster - if this trade had gone down last year the Mets would have made the playoffs.

"Wow, talk about overreacting! Was this the best decision from Omar about Lastings? Probably not. Is it the end of the Mets franchise? No way. This isn't a horrible trade (yet) but it's not a great trade either. The Mets did get a very solid catcher (bye bye Estrada) and a pretty decent OF. The Nats got a potential very good OF, but one who also might bomb. I have a feeling this will be one of those trades you can only decide about in about 3 seasons or so. But right now? Not the worst thing."

Well said, I feel the same way. Church was a pretty nice hitter against the Mets to if I remember right. I thjink if the Mets didnt have Martinez and Gomez that will probably be ready in a year or 2( a year for gomez, 2 or 3 from F-Mart), they wouldnt have done this. My idea is that in a year when Alou is done, Gomez will take over there, then a year or two later, when Church is a FA, Martinez will take over there, if everything goes to plan. I was excited to see Milledge get a full season of AB's, because of his lethally quick bat, but he still has learning to do. If/when he learns to take that down and away breakingball, he can be a monster. It might take a little while for this to happen though, or it might never happen. Stick him right into CF and just give him 600 at bats though. I wonder if Willie Randolph had anything to do with this trade. Two reasons, he never seemed to like Lastings much, and Willie LOVES having good defenders up the middle, and this has to put the Mets in contention for the best up the middle defense in baseball with Reyes, Castillo, Schnieder and Beltran. You gota give something to get something.

If they were going to trade Milledge they should have traded him when they could of got Oswalt or Zito. The players that they got in return aren't bad, but they shouldn't have traded Milledge

I think this also is a lesson to those that are all over Ellsbury/Lester/Buchholz/Joba/Hughes/Kennedy ... etc, etc.

Milledge was a big time prospect 2 years ago as well as last year. He was the centerpiece for potential superstar trades. All it takes is a year or two of mediocre performance and you see the value slip to Ryan Church status.

This is exactly why prospects AREN'T as valuable as players with a few years of service under their belts. You simply cannot take Joba's 21 ML innings and project him into the Hall of Fame. Prospects fail or underperform all of the time. This trade just helps to remind us all of that fact.

BJ, I hear you, but it isnt very fair to post Milledges MLB career line and then use it against him. He rarely ever got more then 2 starts in a row and was up and down from AAA 3 or 4 times the last couple of years. He never got the chance to really prove himself. Its a very fair point though, this deal most likely gets the Mets to the playoffs last year.

Having watched Milledge in both AAA and MLB games, I'm very happy as a Nats fan that the Mets made this trade, but I think Mets fans should be a bit happier about having Schneider there. He's a great coach for young pitchers, so if the Mets hold on to guys like Pelfrey and Heilman, he could do lots of good for those players. I'm honestly sad to see him leave Washington.

"Could possibly go down as the worst trade in history!!!

WTF is Omar smoking"

Not anything nearly as strong as what you are smoking. Take off your homer hat and be logical for a second. to mets fans this stings cause we watched Milledge come up thru the minors. It also hurts because we got spoiled watching Wright and Reyes turn into stars so we expect it from all of our youngsters. A great defensive catcher goes a long way towards a winning team.

"Having watched Milledge in both AAA and MLB games, I'm very happy as a Nats fan that the Mets made this trade, but I think Mets fans should be a bit happier about having Schneider there. He's a great coach for young pitchers, so if the Mets hold on to guys like Pelfrey and Heilman, he could do lots of good for those players. I'm honestly sad to see him leave Washington."

I feel the same way. I love that we picked up Scnhieder was just sad to see my boy Lastings gone. If the Nats are smart he will go right into CF and start every single day. His defense in CF is very very good, where it is probably only average in RF. He mashes lefties and needs to learn to lay off breaking balls moving away from him from rhp.

Don't forget about Church, bignatsfan!

He ranked 29th in the NL slugging vs righties: http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/stats/batting?sort=slugAvg&split=32&league=nl&season=2007&seasonType=2&type=reg&ageMin=17&ageMax=51&minpa=300&hand=a&pos=all (ahead of David Wright!)

Paul LoDuca
Guillermo Mota
Lastings Milledge


These are guys (I suspect) Randolph, Minaya and the Mets did not want any part of going forward. Sometimes your clubhouse gets better when you remove some problems. Addition by subtraction.

I really don't think any GM would EVER consider trading Zito, Oswalt, or any frontline player -- past, present or in the future -- for a guy like Milledge.

Not a great deal, but a good deal. A fair trade for both sides, in my opinion.

And to the poster (toshiro) who suggested that Dmitri Young mentor him...you ARE kidding, right? Do you think Dmitri taught Delmon the "throw the bat at the umpire" trick?

nrmax88: I expect that they'll do exactly as you say an put Milledge as the starting CF, which will be great actually...Pena/Milledge/Kearns...I could live with that. :)

toshiro: Believe, I haven't forgotten about him, he also lead all MLB in doubles through the first half of the season - right up to the point we acquired Pena, and he lost his starting job. He's an awesome pickup for the Mets if they let him play every day. Remember, those were mostly doubles at RFK - at Shea, they'd probably have been HRs...

I'm more personally saddened about Schneider though because he's been with the team for so long and did such an amazing job with our young pitchers this year. I'm just a sentimental old fart who likes to see guys stick around and do well. You're right though, I'm sad to see Church go too.

"This is hilarious. Maybe now all the Milledge/Minaya nutsuckery from Mets fans will finally stop. Only Mets fans liked Milledge, and most of them clearly never saw how badly low breaking balls embarrassed him regularly."

Well, if that is the case, then why would the Minaya nutsuckers stop? If nobody outside NY liked Milledge, then this was an awesome trade, no?

God people are stupid.

bignatsfan, so is it fair to say I should expect Schneider to be dynamite behind the plate, throw some guys out and help the young pitchers? Is it also fair to expect Church to hit a lot of extra base hits and have a nice batting eye? If so, I can live with this. I cant wait to see how this helps all our young starters.

Jerry Koosman: Catch up with the times! Dmitri was the Comback Player of the Year BECAUSE of his mentorship...he's come a long way from his troubled past. toshiro's right. Dmitri would be a great mentor for Milledge.

nrmax88: Yep, I'd say that's a fair expectation. So long as they both get to play, that is.

JK -- I can't take credit for suggesting that, but it sounds like a great idea! The Youngs do seem to have some issues (Dmitri/Delmon), but there's no denying they can hit. Dmitri's issues are a bit overblown. His last year on Detroit was a professional/personal disaster. I won't fault him too much, almost everyone I know has that (it's just not quite as publicized).

We'll see what Milledge does. If all the other pieces were in place for the Nats, I'd rather have Schneider & Church. But we're a long way off from having a solid ballclub, so long term team building makes the most sense.

"A Castro/Estrada and Milledge tandem would EASILY outperform Schneider/Church."

Really? I dont think so, not if you care about defense. Stop being a baby. It isnt that bad. Church will probably outperform Lastings this year. I am as high on lastings as any met fan, but this DOES help them for this year. Church is a nice little player. Here is how I look at it. Schneider>Lo Duca
Church>Green
Maine,Perez of 08> better then Maine/Perez of 07 because of Schneider.

Mets 08 > Mets 07

Milledge will almost certainly become the best player in this deal, but not next year. These are solid guys that can contribut all year, they have done it before. By the time Milledge is blossoming into a star, if/when it happens it will be around 2010 or 2011. By that time the Mets could have revamped their system.

And do you really want Omar gone? The guy that brought in Maine for nothing? The guy that brought in Oliver PErez for nothing? If i am not mistaking, you have been drooling over those 2 guys on this site for a couple weeks now. He broguth in El Duque for nothing. He brought in Castillo for nothing. Found Sosa on the scrap heap who helped big time when our pitchers were hurt. Brought in Duaner for nothing who was great for us until he got hurt. Brought us Beltran, and Delgado. Brought in Endy Chavez and Ruben Gotay. Basically, you want to fire the guy who made the Mets go from laughing stock to NL powerhouse in like 2 years? Wonderful, it is nice to know we dont have a bunch of knee jerk reaction homers on here or anything. We love Milledge for his upside, not what he has already done for us. We have 2 guys now who probably wont be Milledge, but will help us much more then he would have this year. We also still have Gomez and Martinez. I just dont get why everybody is acting like upset little school girls. Last question, who do we bring in if Omar is fired? Duquette looking for a job?

".why trade him for a catcher and outfielder that won't play much?"

I would assume that Ryan Church and Bryan Schneider would be the opening day RF and C respectively.


To the guy who made the Blanton joke, this is 10X better then Milledge even straight up for Blanton. People have to realize what a big time thing it is to have a top notch defensive catcher and game caller behind the plate. Just ask the Sox how V-Tek worked out for all of these years.

"very bad move by the mets.lastings in 184 at bats approx,i think hit 7 hr and 29 rbi.that is projected over a full season to hit 21 hr and 90 rbi and he is only 23 yrs old soon and he will probably get better.i understand trading him because the mets have a surplus of young outfield prospects but you have to trade him for something you need,starting pitcher or bullpen.why trade him for a catcher and outfielder that won't play much?they could of kept loduca and kept milledge and would have been in the same position.this might hurt the mets chances for obtaining other needs.they should of packaged him for a starter or bullpen help.this trade makes no sense and most agree."

this whole post makes no sense.... and most agree

"Grady sizemore part 2 :)

This is pretty funny"

Really, I can remember you saying plenty of times that Milledge was overated and you would have absolutely no desire to have him anywhere near your marlins. Now since the Mets traded him though he has gained some value so you can call this deal a fleecing or something. Nice.

bignats: Sorry I'm not buying that. Can you say contract drive? Dmitri was DFA'd by Detroit, had to sign a minor league contract for $500,000.

And after getting a contract that matched his waistline on July 28th, in the 28 games he played the rest of the way, he scored 12 runs. What? Oh well, maybe I'm missing something when it comes to good role models.

Just my opinion, I think Milledge and Church will post similar stats the next few years. Church and Schneider are lefties, so that will help in addition. And Schneider gets thrown in for free. Again, good deal, fair deal. Just not a great deal.

Sorry to repeat, I don't think any GM would ever seriously consider getting Milledge as "one of the key players" in a deal for a player of any significance. And those rumors of Milledge for Oswalt or Zito were nothing but rumors circulated by crazy unrealistic fans.

And I've been a Met fan since the '60's...

JerryKoosman: Dmitri missed almost a month of playing time because he got smacked in the head, and he's supposedly trying to lose 20 lbs. this offseason.

He fell apart in Detroit, he almost died from undiagnosed diabities (a cause for his troubles off the field and declining performance on the field).

LOADS of players and coaches all said he had become an unexpected and great mentor this season. I hope it continues, and I think you'll be surprised.

Of course, if Nick Johnson returns to form, Dmitri may not play much, but...let's be honest, Johnson will end up back on the DL at some point.

Perhaps not a *great* deal, JK, but whaddya want freebies? I know the Nats suck but c'mon. Milledge simply hasn't lived up to the hype. The Mets don't have time to figure out if he's the real deal. The Mets are very close to securing the NL East.

The time for the Mets to trade the future for the present is at hand. They're kind of where the Yankees were in 1998. You have Reyes/Wright on great contracts. Maine too. Do you want to risk not making the playoffs in 2008 and waste a year off those great contracts? In addition to flushing 13 mil from Beltran down the drain? Now is the time for the Mets to strike.

Church can provide an upgrade for Green or at least give Randolph more options in OF. He hammers righties as well as Beltran and Wright and the Phillies only have one lefty worth a damn. Hopefully Schneider will improve the staff as nrmax said. He does have a reputation for that. The Mets don't need much to put them over the top.

What I really don’t understand though is the fact that Omar seems to be running around like a chicken without its head over this Catching position ~ as if it was the only reason they didn’t make the playoffs. They have gone through every single option out there so far, having ToraTora basically signed before apparently backing out, trading for Estrada already and now this too?

If he had a clear gameplan then maybe it might make a little sense, as it stands though it seems that he overpaid just to have yet another option for a position which could have like 4 or 5 players in the end. Schneider should have come cheaper, Church isn’t needed and Lastings or Gomez or Martinez could have been sent off in a different trade for a much bigger improvement. Like I said before, it seems he is obsessed with the C position and is now to the point of making rash moves for a player they might not even end up playing when the dust settles…

Maybe I’m wrong on that, but its where my questioning of it really comes in…


Oh and the news of “Molina for Gomez” that was posted in the Giants thread doesn’t do much to help this questioning I have…

toshiro, sounds like we agree. They have to play for 2008.

I don't think Omar is running around like a chicken without its head. I don't want to defend him, but getting ANYTHING for Mota (who was owed $3.5 mill for 2008) would be a bonus. So they MAY not have anything to show, if they non-tender Estrada. And so what? Omar basically said that on FAN just now (Mota's time was up).

Regarding Milledge, as Omar stated on the radio just now, he called around and found few really interested in the lad. So, Met fans, accept it, there was no *realistic* market for Milledge. Only Met fans thought he was all that and a bag of chips.

(again -- I'm a Met fan)

Now that you've passed the torch, I think Nats fans are gonna hope he's all that and a bag of chips.

With AJones gone, seems like the only thing standing in the Mets way is the Phillies.

The pitching will probably be the difference. Is Pedro going to come back. It'd be a good time for him to pull one of his killer years.

Nrmax i honestly dunno how you can defend Omar on this one. Wasnt it just yesterday you said he was worth more than Blanton? Instead you got a mediocre 3rd outfielder and a back-up catcher.

I would have liked to have seen my team get milledge for two league average players


padres shoulda questioned on it

The more I think of this trade, the more I like the deal.

Church slugged .500 against righties this year. He is an upgrade over Green from last year. He will be in a better lineup and a slightly better park to hit in. He is under control for 4 years cheap. He has atleast shown that he is a very adequate half of a platoon that can play atleast average defense. There is always a chance in a good lineup that he may break out in his 29-32 years.

Schneider is also a cheap option at backstop in a starved market. He is a very good game caller and has a great arm also. After the offense that Lo Duca put up last year, Schneider wont be any worse, and his defensive value is very high.

I like Milledge and all, but this trade could help the pitching staff big time, and since the Mets couldnt get a big time pitcher, they did the next best thing and signed the best catcher they could find that would help their pitching staff the most.

At the very worst, Ryan Church is equal to Shawn Green last year and Brian Schneider cant hit his way out of a paper bag bug calls a great game and keeps baserunners in check.

This trade may come back to haunt us down the line, but if Gomez or Martinez pan out as some expect them too, it shouldnt. Milledge is a tremendous talent but he will have some growing pains this year, until he lays off the slider. Ryan Church is more of a know quantity, and along with Brian Schneider I think the Mets win this trade in terms of 2008. In 3 or 4 years we will see ultimately got the better of this one. But if Milledge becomes a star, and the Mets win the World series in 2008, is it still considered a win? The production of Gomez and Martinez also will play a role in the deal, because if they both bomb out, while Milledge rises to superstardom, this trade will look worse.

We wont really know for a while. Either way good luck Lastings.

I think people should stop bashing Omar for letting Milledge go, he had his reasons, but this is clearly a move going for needs instead of value. If he's saying that this is best he can get, then I'm shocked. Either the rest of the league is dumb, or Minaya wasn't looking hard enough.

Personally I think we should focus on what an incredibly good move this is for Jim Bowden. This guy gets badgered all the time, but you have to be honest this is an incredibly smart move, buying low on a guy who will likely become a mainstay in that outfield. He turned a solid platoon guy and an overpaid catcher (yes, he's over paid at 2/10.5) for a guy who was considered the #9 prospect in all of baseball by BA in 2006. He's still only 23, and most likely will end up become a good player

Schneider will help this team much more then Blanton. I love the idea of having a great defensive catcher for once. The mets have been getting run all over for as long as I can remember. Church is an upgrade over Shawn Green, and slugged .500 against righties last year while playing half his games in rfk. It is a win now type move, and I hate to lose Milledge, but this trade immediately improves the Mets from last year, atleast in the field, where they were only one game away from the playoffs. Milledge is a huge potential but he is not ready to slug .500 against righties this year like Church hopefully will. There is no doubt that Milledge has much higher upside, read all of my posts, I am not sayingit was a great deal, but a calculated risk to get better right now. He is also gambling that Gomez and Martinez will become big time players. We will have to wait too see who the ultimate winner is. Also, dont just look at Schneiders hitting numbers and say he sucks. He is a good ballplayer. I will take a good game called and arm out of my catcher and number 8 guy any day.

I think this is a fair interpretation of the trade. Mets get better of the trade in 08 while Milledge continues to develop while finally playing every day. Church and Schneider contribute more then Milledge does in 08. If Milledge becomes a star, then the Nats win the deal. If the Mets win the world series this year, or Gomez or F-Mart become stars, these things have to be taken into accoutn also because they are all things considered when making a deal.

And i have only gotten into the trade from the Mets point of view. This is a great deal for Bowden. I am sure some of the fans will miss Schneider working with their pretty much AAAA pitching staff, but getting Milledge to possibly man CF for them for the next 10 years is huge. He is much more valuable as a cf, which is the only reason I am surprised Omar couldnt get more. Milledge is the type of guy that he should build the team around. If they can trade Cordero and maybe a lower prospect for another prospect like Milledge that would definitely be putting them in the right direction.

Sorry scribble, hadnt seen youre post when I posted my last one. I just posted almost exactly the same thing you did. Anyway, I agree that Omar was looking specifically for a catcher he thought that would help improve the Mets pitching, and getting Church as the extra was nice too, because he can atleast give the Mets better production then they had in RF last year for a much better price.

Think Bowden is simply acknowledging that the Nats aren't going to have "it" for some time. The nice thing about the trade is that Milledge is the same age as Zimmerman, so if they both break out at the same time, they could feasibly be in (roughly) the same boat as the Mets are today in 4-5 years, which would coincide well since they're opening a new stadium in 2008.

"Think Bowden is simply acknowledging that the Nats aren't going to have "it" for some time"

UHHH have you their rotation? Its a fuckin joke. I don't think there is one person in Washington who expected that team to contend with their pitching staff. Thats why this is such a great move, because they're just setting themselves up to be good in a few years. A middle of the order of Zimmerman, Milledge and Marrero could end up being pretty good.

Do people not realize that Ryan Church is a damn good hitter? Career OPS over 800 in the hardest park to hit Home Runs in in the league (Sorry Petco). Shea's a pitchers park, but you have to figure his output is going to increase with a better ballpark and better hitters around him.

Going by SABRmetric analysis, his 19 win shares was 3rd best on the Nationals and would have been 4th best on the Mets (Behind the big 3 hitters).

Sure, Milledge is a great talent, but even the most favorable scouting reports had him as a .285/.350/.475 hitter with 20-25 HR power, 20 SB and playing a great Centerfield. Now it turns out his defense isn't as good as it was hyped up to be and he'll probably have to play one of the corners (An Offensive Position). That alone is a huge chunk out of his value as that kind of line would only be above-average, not elite for his position. RF's like Ryan Church project to give the Mets that line next year (You assume he'll get better out of RFK).

I'm not saying it's a great deal, because, well, Milledge is younger and maybe he can exceed those projections. But it's not nearly as bad as people are making it out to be.

Nobody here has been saying Church is a bad hitter, but the thing is that he is a platoon player. Its that simple. If you could match him up with another good righty in RF then that'd make for a damn good platoon. Last year, Church posted a line of 14-51-287 with a 866 vs RHP, but a line of 1-19-229 with a 655 OPS vs LHP. I agree, Church is a damn good hitter, the only problem is that its only against righthanded pitching. so. suck on that.

The guy will 20 HR's and 40 Doubles. That isn't bad production. It will exceed Milledge in 08.

As others have stated, this is a win now trade. In the long run this probably hurts the Mets but that's OK. They want to make a run in 08.

Works well for the Nats because they can be patient in developing Milledge. They aren't ready to make a run so give them a few years with Lastings and see what happens when the weight of the world isn't on his shoulders.

Church's 3 year splits he hit 742OPS against Lefties. He's not a platoon player. He just had a bad year against them.

Minaya has already said that (if Church is here) he sees him as more then a platoon player.

Still not convinced that he's more than a platoon guy. Over the last three years, he posted a RHP OPS of 856 in 737 AB and a LHP OPS of 742, which yes is reasonable, but its in only 197 AB. I mean that definately helps his argument that he posted a 742 OPS over the last three years, but I still feel like they are making a mistake if they plan on making him their everyday RF. Plus, this year was the first time that he ever posted more than 270 AB, and he only had 470. It could end up working out fairly well, he has good doubles power and good patience at the plate, but I wouldn't be so confident.

nrmax88,

I admire your passion, but your posts seem like you're going overboard to make it sound like you think the deal is a good one.

I don't think it's that bad of a deal for the Mets. The real "disaster" is not dealing Milledge a year ago. That said, they're getting back a 29 year old guy who's not going to get better and should be a 4th OFer and a 30+ defensive catcher who can't hit for a guy who has a lot of upside. Milledge may not be a dominate future HOFer, but a .280, 25HR, 20SB type for the next 10 years? Why not.

Living in DC since the Nats came into existence, I think the two they got are alright-it doesn't make the Metros a worse team by any means, just not a whole heckuva lot better. Milledge could've been used better

Scribble,

Church may or may not be a platoon player. His splits indicate a definite weakness vs L. Still, would you rather he be good vs L and suck vs righties? Sounds like a weak argument.

Bottom line is that against righties he's the equivalent of David Wright. Do you think much of that guy? Though so.

The Phillies starting rotation is 60% righties and Moyer is traditionally a reverse lefty ( he's much worse vs lefty bats), so Church will do fine against him. So basically you get the equivalent of a Wright over Green who's on a steep decline for 400k for the next few years. And you're dissatisfied?

I'm pretty shocked at this. The bright side: Church will be an RBI upgrade over Shawn Green and Schieder and Castro could make a solid C combo.

The downside: Milledge would only have to be a little lucky to be as productive as Ryan Church in 2007, and his ceiling (notice the word CEILING, as in highest possible point) is Carlos Beltran-esque (similarly built players with comparable early pro numbers and same natural position). Ryan Church is probably decent comp for what Milledge will be at the least.

The other problem is that now if the Mets do deal Gomez, who replaces Alou in 2008? I mean, I understand LF isn't exactly the most demanding position defensively, but unless Omar's got his sights set on Adam Dunn (who he could have looked at anyway for 1B) its hard to see him effectively replacing that position with a legit offensive force.

Didn't the Mets exercise the 2008 option on Alou? He'll be playing right?

nrmax is expecting Schneider to help the pitching with his leadership, which I wouldn't be surprised (although this kind of thing isn't really quantifiable). But his CS was among the best in the NL and the attempts was among the lowest as well (Ausmus type level). AND this while he was in the NL East facing the likes of Reyes, Rollins, Wright Victorino etc. McCann had many more attempts against with a lower pct caught.
That's gotta create peace of mind for the guy on the mound so hopefully that'll help Mets pitchers do better.

I can't believe no one has mentioned the irony. The Nats did not need Schneider because they have Jesus Flores who they claimed in the 2006 Rule V Draft when Minaya and the Mets failed to protect him. Minaya's biggest blunder here is creating a void at catcher by leaving the franchise's future catcher unprotected with no alternative in the organiation.

"Bottom line is that against righties he's the equivalent of David Wright. Do you think much of that guy? Though so."

If Ryan Church is such a can't miss guy that rapes right handed pitching, then how come he's never gotten more than 470 AB in a season and that didnt come til his age 28 season. Everybody acts like Ryan Church is this super proven commodity thats been posting decent numbers for years. The guy doesnt even have 1000 at bats yet and he's 29. Last year was his first chance to even get decent playing time. I'm not out to bash Church because I actually think he'll post a solid .275-18-75 line next year for the Mets, but lets be realistic, if the guy was a better ballplayer he would've gotten his shot earlier

"I can't believe no one has mentioned the irony. The Nats did not need Schneider because they have Jesus Flores who they claimed in the 2006 Rule V Draft when Minaya and the Mets failed to protect him. Minaya's biggest blunder here is creating a void at catcher by leaving the franchise's future catcher unprotected with no alternative in the organiation."

You have to give credit to Bowden and Acta for sticking with him. Would you expect a team too claim a 21 year old catcher that never played a game above A ball and keep him on the big league roster for the whole year? Minaya protected somebody he thought was more likely to get taken.

"nrmax88,

I admire your passion, but your posts seem like you're going overboard to make it sound like you think the deal is a good one."

If you read all of my posts, I have very mixed emotions. I like the trade for right now. We may well regret it in 3 years. Right now though, the Mets get a great backstop with good gamecalling ability, and a strong arm, and a guy who replaces Milledge for this year. A guy like Damion Easley could be his platoon mate if necesarry. I really like the Schneider pickup a lot, catching is not about hitting, and the Mets now have solid hitters at 1 through 7. The fact that we got a few more lefties in our lineup is nice too.

Scribble, how do you feel about Ryan Howard, it took him till about his age 25 or 26 season to get regular playing time. I am in no way saying that he is Ryan Howard, just saying plenty of guys are late bloomers, or just dont get a shot til later on. I am definitely not crazy about losing Milledge, but I do think the deal improves the Mets in 2008.

See, I can understand a guy breaking through at 25, because if he got drafted out of college, say age 21, and then just took a little too long to adjust, then maybe he wouldn't feel comfortable til he was 25, but i just feel like blooming at 28 is way different than blooming at 25. And hey, I don't love Milledge either, its just that this was a deal driven completely by short term needs and not maximizing value, which i dont like because i personally think maximizing value should generally be your primary trading goal

It's a bad long-term trade, absolutely. But I do definitely see what nrmax88 is saying, and agree to a point. The Mets could have received more value for Milledge (probably considerably more, ESPECIALLY if he was packaged), but the haul isn't terrible.

Schneider is a very good game caller and defensive backstop, and his bat isn't a complete black hole, even if it is below league average. Ryan Church isn't going to suddenly explode on to the scene, but he'll see a lot more pitches in the Mets' lineup than the Nats'. I get a Juan Rivera feel from him. He's just been waiting for consistent playing time to show off his bat and should offer the Mets a solid contribution if he's a regular starter. Think something like, say, .280/.360/.470 in 500+ at-bats. Nothing eye-popping, but certainly a contributor. He's also a much better teammate than Milledge, and will be an obvious clubhouse improvement.

But 2 years from now, this will start to look bad FAST.

It's a good trade by the Mets. They get two starters for the price of one. Also, both Church and Schneider are low priced, allowing for further moves down the road.

Minaya knows that the Mets have to win soon. Their team is veteran laden and their future is now.

Veteran-laden?

Sure, they have their fair share of veterans, but the Mets future is fine. They're in New York with a new stadium coming, and a revenue stream that allows for consistent $100+ million teams. They have Jose Reyes, David Wright, John Maine, and Oliver Perez to build something around, and Carlos Beltran still has several good years left in him. There's no reason for them to go into rebuilding mode when salaries start coming off the books (starting with Pedro, then Delgado). They even have some pretty decent guys coming up (Gomez, Pelfrey) to make the team cheaper and more talented. This team, with its budget, is fine to compete in the long-term.

“Scribble, how do you feel about Ryan Howard, it took him till about his age 25 or 26 season to get regular playing time. I am in no way saying that he is Ryan Howard, just saying plenty of guys are late bloomers, or just dont get a shot til later on.”

NrMax,
You know I generally respect your posts ~ but I do have to question that statement. See, the huge (and I mean beyond reasoning huge) difference here is in the fact that the Phillies *couldn’t* give Howard his shot when he was ready ~ they had pretty much just signed Jim Thome for 1B and to be the face of the franchise… Howard was drafted in 2001 and put on the slow-track because of said signing ~ by 2004 (only 3 years later) it was obvious that he was already capable of putting up comparable numbers to Thome and they had a dilemma.

Similarly, guys like Travis Hafner could be argued to have had a “late start” ~ but again you notice that Pronk was blocked by such guys as Rafael Palmeiro while in a group with Adrian Gonzalez, Hank Blaylock and Mark Teixeira which saw the 4 fighting for 2 jobs when Rafael was gone. Hafner in turn didn’t get his real shot till he was 26YO, in the first year he was with the Tribe ~ but it had nothing to do with the fact he wasn’t capable or that he was a late bloomer. The proof of that is in the fact that he maintained a 115 OPS+ as soon as he was given his shot with Cleveland.

Church on the other hand was traded from the same Indians team because of the fact that they knew he wasn’t, and never would be talented enough to really be in the teams future. He was othing more than yet another fair-defending OFer with some pop and very little plate patience who has problems against Lefties. What has he shown to be in the majors so far? Oh year, a fair defender with some pop, with a little better pate patience then he once showed but has problems against lefties. He hasn’t been blocked by anyone in Wash, he just wasn’t really good enough to play. He has been able to smack the ball around some, but really only against righties. He has developed some patience, but a lot of it comes from the fact that in Washington he is semi-pitched around because of that Pop. He isn’t anything special though, 29 YO and still never a fulltime job because he has never been good enough for one.


And everyone, please stop with the “he should be better in NY” stuff. The *LgAVG lines in NY vs Wash look like this ~ .269/.338/.430/.768 vs .265/.334/.428/.760. We all no that isn’t enough of a variance to make much difference in his line. *Then*, why does hitting in a better lineup make you think his numbers would go up? Think about it, they will go down if anything. Currently in Wash there was no need to pitch to the few guys with pop, you semi-pitch around them and then go on to the next guy for the out or even DP (which he hits into a lot of I might add). In NY with a better hitter behind him though, they are not just going to pitch around him meaning his OBP will instantly suffer. Then you have to think, if he is being challenged more, will it help or hurt his numbers? Well, that high SO rate tells us that yes, he is a semi-free-swinger and when challenged more consistently it could see it becoming a huge problem.

Not trying to bash the guy, just pointing out the fact that you may want to consider it when you are trying to talk yourself into believing he is going to be an integral part of your club…

Besides, Church wont even get that many ABs unless Alou gets hurt ~ the Mets will sign someone like Guillen for RF and he will be the 4th to 5th OFer depending on if Gomez is up and ready…


Also remember this ~ it was a division-rival deal here right? Well if the Nats really thought that these two players were going to make a bigger impact on the Mets then random FA’s they could sign in their place, then I don’t think they would have made the trade…

Fair enough, I have to disagree on some points also though. I think a guy like Easley or maybe even Ben Johnson will platoon with Church. It isnt hard to find a Lefty masher platoon guy. Hell, go get Sammy Sosa if you want. But a pretty good fielding outfielder giving you an .860 OPS against righties in 400 at bats per year isnt the worth thing. The Mets will get a ton more production in RF then they did last year. Schneider, while a huge upgrade defensively, also reached base at a higher clip then Lo duca even though he hit like .40 points lower. Schneider drew 56 walks and struck out 56 times last year, thats pretty impressive for an 8th hitter. Catcher and RF were upgraded in this trade over the 07 team.

Darkstar, you know how I feel about Milledge, but he still has to fine tune his game, and if he ever develops into an all star, it will probably be around 2010 or 11. Instead of getting only value out of Millede, Omar filled holes for a team that is very close to winning. I guess he was willing sacrfice some future talent for guys who are better now, albeit with not nearly the upside of Lastings. Having Gomez had to have made this trade easier.

But I honestly do think that a Church/lefty masher platoon, will post an 850 ops and will be fine for the 7th spot in the order.


"Also remember this ~ it was a division-rival deal here right? Well if the Nats really thought that these two players were going to make a bigger impact on the Mets then random FA’s they could sign in their place, then I don’t think they would have made the trade…"

Sorry, but this is just no true. The Nats are atleast 3 or 4 years away from even considering something like that in a trade. They arent competing for a long time. They had a chance to get Milledge, who they see as a mainstay in CF for atleast the next 5 or 6 years. Church is a very solid player and so is Schneider, but neither is young, or has nearly the upside of Milledge. If Church and Schneider single handedly destroy the Nats next year, what do they care? They arent competing anyway. While solid, these two dont matter a ton because by the time the Nats are ready to compete these guys will be almost retired. They are building for the future, the Mets are trying to finish their puzzle now. Instead of looking for the most value, I guess Omar just looked for a team where he could get a good defensive catcher and a cheap RF replacement that could hit a little bit. While neither is great, they will solidify the 7th and 8th spots in the lineup. I guess Omar either (A) thinks Milledge wont become the star some think he will (B) is getting pressured by the organization to deal him, because for some reason they dont seem to like Milledge, or (C) thinks that by the time Milledge is an impact player Gomez will be an impact player and can negate the loss of Milledge.

Again, I dont want to come off as some Mets homer that refuses to say anything bad about the franchise. I have been a Met, Jet, Knicks, Rangers fan for like 15 years now, I am not immune from hating the team I love, believe me. I absolutely hate losing Milledge, especially to a team in our division. I just feel like it does solidify our lineup and our defense and makes us much better for 2008, probably 2009 also, but after that who knows. I understand why the trade was made though in terms of the personell we got back, which isnt as bad a people think.

The Mets outfield will look like this. Alou, Beltran, Church, lefty platoon partner, Endy Chavez. Gomez wont be up as the 5th OF wasting his service time. I also disagree that you think Church will not hit better. He will be batting 7th. Behind Beltran, Alou, and Delgado. There is going to be more guys on base then he has ever had while hitting behind Cristian Guzman and Felipe Lopez. He also hits tons of doubles. He is a good fit for the 7th spot against righties. 450 at bats of an 860 ops out of the 7 spot is fine by me. Especially since he was the throw in in the trade I would imagine. I love the schneider pick up. The mets not have arguably the best up the middle defense in baseball now.

"The mets not have arguably the best up the middle defense in baseball now."

now*

lol i dono, that "not" just shouldnt be in that sentence

Ahh, but you kind of are coming off like a Mets-Homer trying to explain this one :)


Think about this ~ the Mets missed the Playoffs in dramatic style, do you think they are not going to really do anything to upgrade? Well, keeping Alou and Castillio means they really only have 2 batting positions they can upgrade, right? Those 2 are Catcher and RF… Do you really think a NY team that failed in that manor will take a possible offensive step-back (or at best stay even) with the Catcher position while simultaneously adding a platoon which *might* produce ok numbers in RF? Again, we are talking the fresh off a miserable collapse, *Mets* here…

I really, really cant imagine they do not try to add a plus-side bat here and instead go with a questionable platoon. Guillen seems to be a fit, and they have been rumored to have interest. Otherwise a trade might go down. The Mets going with a platoon in a high-offensive position though ~ seems rather far fetched to me… With that in mind, Church then becomes a 4th to 5th OF and holds little more value than an injury replacement. Sure, his bat off the bench is fairly good, but Lastinigs was last year as well… Shoot, look at the lines:
Lastings: .272/.341/.446
Church: .272/.349/.464


Also, You really don’t think Church will be challenged more? I mean, you said it yourself ~ he will have more guys on base, meaning he will be more of an important out. In Wash, he generally comes up with few on base and no protection ~ getting him out is of very little importance. If ya pitch around him and end up walking him in the worst case, you just set up the double play. Now in NY though, his out will be important ~ ie you have to get him out.

He is a fairly free-swinger now being challenged in nearly every single AB, right? Wel… But check out his OBP when a logical base is open compared to like “runner on 1st”, “1&2” or having them full… Also check out the line he put up when there were 2 outs vs those of 0-1. When he absolutely has to be gotten out, he seems to get out rather easily ~ when you can pitch around him he seems to do dramatically better though. Also, take a look at the “With-in so&so runs” splits, when its within 1 his BA, OBP and SLG are all at their lowest ~ its when the run difference gets bigger that he gets a bit better (ie, when you need to get him out more). Or how about his lines by Innings? 5th to 6th is his highest (expected, pitchers start to tire), but the BA in the 8th is only .260 (walks are high because of the lack of protection, so OBP is ok) and the 9th or Extra inning he might as well not of even gotten off the bench except for when they walk him semi-intentionally (.222/.300/.417 & .125/.364/.125 respectively). I don’t see the rational behind him being better in NY at all here, I think the protection will near instantly hurt the OBP and the SO total could very well see a big increase lowering the BA as well.


“Sorry, but this is just no true. The Nats are atleast 3 or 4 years away from even considering something like that in a trade”

Their competing is kind of besides the point, you still don’t help division rivals ~ you try to hurt them if you can. Besides, Bowden has expressed interest in each and every high-end FA there has been ~ whos to say he wont do a couple things to make improvements and get them a bit closer. Don’t want to get into this side of it, but just think about what I said ~ don’t you think its extremely unusual to *help* a division rival like that even if you aren’t able to really compete? Ripping them off is the only reason you make the deal in my mind…

Uh, darkstar...being in a better lineup, where you're not the best hitter anymore doesn't mean your numbers go down. Sure, in Washington he might have been pitched around a little bit, so he drew more walks, but that's not the point when someone says that his numbers go up in a better lineup.

Any potential loss in walks means a likely increase in hits. He won't be pitched around anymore, but pitchers who don't strikeout a lot of guys will face Church with every reason to give him something to hit to get the out, lest they face Beltran, Wright, Reyes, or Delgado. Given that he also never has really had regular playing time, if he gets that in New York (which I think is to be expected as things are right now), then you can expect him to see a lot more strikes and hitters pitches.

You are the first and only person that I have ever heard say that a hitter's stats would go DOWN in a better lineup...because outside of MAYBE MAYBE not getting as many walks (and let's face it, Church was NOT being pitched around in Washington at any meaningful clip, I watched them plenty), there's no reason to think it to be the case.

If Church's OPS dips by more than 30 or 40 points in New York, I'll eat my hat.

Dark, I will take a Church and say Sosa platoon every day of the week over signing Guillen long term. Church is batting 7th, so it makes no difference that RF is a hitting position. CF is not a hitting position so Beltran makes up for that. Pretend Church is in cetner and Beltran is in RF if you must, because it is esentially the same thing. Milledge is a very solid player, but this would have been a learning year for him. Maybe the Mets just didnt want to deal with his growing pains in a season in which they want to win the world series. Again, Church is FINE for the 7th batter in the order, and he wont be a 4th or 5th OF, you are wrong about that. He is going to be the opening day RF unless some stud comes along instead and falls in our lap, no, not Jose Guillen. Schneider is a massive upgrade over Lo Duca anyway. So what he batted 40 points lower, he got on base more, and drew more walks. Isnt the point of hitting to get on base? Especially batting out of the 8th hole. They upgraded big time at 2 positions from last year.

I dont really think there is much of a question of that Milledge will be better down the road, but we upgraded 2 positions for next year with him, and the mets have no shortage of OF prospects.

I have repeatedly said I think that the Mets easily win this deal in 2008, and maybe 2009, once 2010 and 11 come around, the tables may start to turn, unless Milledge flops for whatever reason. If you dont think thats a fair assesment of the deal or think the Milledge will contribute more on the last plays Nats next year then Schneider and Church will in a playoff race, then agree to disagree.

last place nats*

I just feel like that at this point in their careers, Church and Schneider can help the Mets in 2008 more then Milledge would have. In 3 years this can be drastically different, but Omar took that chance. Maybe I am okay with this trade because I am overvaluing Schneider. I dont know, being a Met fan since the Todd Hundley days, it will be nice finally a backstop that can call a great game and throw people out. I love great defensive catchers. I think Schneider makes the deal while Church is just a bonus getting an adequate RF that can mash against righties and play pretty good de. If you think I am crazy about this trade, you are dead wrong. I am just trying to bring some Met fans back off the ledge by actually telling them about Church and Schneider, who most of the complainers dont even know. For some reason, a lot of Met fans think that Milledge should have neeted us an all star straight up or something. I love the guy as a player, but this isnt a bad haul for him, considering he hasnt proved himself in the majors, even though his minor league numbers say that is just a matter of time. Another reason I am more okay with this trade then others is because I LOVE gomez. If Gomez isnt in the system, I dont think this trade is made, and I for one would be a hell of a lot more upset.


yeah, but Skelley ~ you are assuming that he is capable of hitting the better pitches; that’s where the difference comes in… Sure, a guy with pretty good plate discipline should see his numbers increase ~ but we are specifically talking about Church here. He is pretty much a fairly free-swinger... Currently he is being pitched cautiously to in Wash because it doesn’t matter if ya walk him ~ it might even help. A Free-Swingers needing to protect the plate as pitchers stay in the zone more should mean more swings and misses though, right?

Not saying his OBP will take a horrible drop to the extent of 30-40 ~ it almost cant because it wasn’t that much higher than his BA anyway. But even a 5-15 point drop on top of him increasing his SO totals more and getting more weak grounders and pop-ups because he is trying to protect the plate would mean the BA will suffer too, incrementally decreasing the OBP even more. That’s what I’m trying to get at.

Maybe ya feel that he will be able to handle more pitches in the zone ~ I see him falling behind on more counts though, in turn having to protect the plate and in the end probably suffering because of it. If we were talking about a guy who has shown he can really hit when he is being challenged, I would agree ~ this is Ryan Church though…


NRMax, again ~ it seems you are ensured that Church will be the opening day without doubt and that inturn the Mets will not try to upgrade their 07 bats for 08. Where yeah, RF doesn’t need to be an upper-tier position if you have others that shouldn’t be, I agree. But the Mets don’t have the option of upgrading anywhere else and since RF is an upper-producing position it means that you can actually upgrade it easily. Ya see what I meant with that?

Right now, the Mets 2008 batting lineup with Schneider + RF Platoon is ideally marginally better than the 07 one (mainly because Platoon should ideally be > Green). The team miserably failed at the end though, do you think ideally marginally better is what they have in mind for the only real batting position they have to upgrade? And how bad was Green really? 104 OPS+ isn’t “horrible” ~ it’s a bit above Average. And most of the OPS drop came because of the loss of power ~ he hit .291/.352 otherwise though (which is better than Church did). And shoot, even the SLG being lower is less than 10 2B and 5 HR difference over the same amount of ABs, Shawn stole 10+ bases which limits that DBL difference even more as well… See, RF Platoon isn’t necessarily that much better than Green + his other half was.

It doesn’t matter, I only mentioned anything because it seems as though you are taking the best case scenario for Church and the worst case for Lastings and saying “we win in 2008” ~ I think there are more factors though and the winning this in 2008 might be ever so minimal if at all when all is said and done…


...its mainly just the Man-Cruch on Church and Schneider all of a sudden. :)

I hear you. These are all completely fair points. I have always loved Schneider, not to the point where I would trade Milledge for him, but w.e. I didnt realize how underated church was until I checked out his numbers after the trade went down. True about Green also, only he really got hot late when he was not playing everyday, and that saved his season numbers. I am not taking the worst case for astings, I just think that although he is a tremendous talent, he couldnt put numbers up against righties like Church could have this year. I also think that the organization kind of wanted him out, why I dont know, I just get that feeling that they never really liked him, for off the field reasons. Also, the Mets did fail miserably, but do you think that was actually the kind of team that they were, or they just got terribly cold at the worst possible time. Fact is, I would take the exact same team as last year and go to war with it and expect a playoff birth. The fact that we improved slightly in RF and big time behind the plate imo, gives us a nice little boost. Church isnt the best RF option ever, but he is a nice little option for this year. I guess we will just have to see. But again, it is perfectly reasonable to me why people would say Minaya got fleeced, but dont just look at the batting numbers of the guys we got back. They are two solid guys that can help make a run this year, and Omar is hoping that by the time Milledge is good enough to make us really regret trading him, Gomez will be as good or better to ease the pain a little bit. My main point is our lineup is now better then it was last year, where they really should have been a playoff team. It isnt perfect, but it shouldnt hurt us this year, and hopefully they can make the necesarry moves from stopping it hurting is in the future. All in all, I would probably take this trade back if I could, but it isnt that bad. Thats how I stand on it. It will be okay for the next 2 years and then could take a steep turn for the worse. But if Schneider does indeed help out with the younger pitchers, then that will make this trade worthwhile too me.

I said his OPS would not drop that far, not his OBP. Something that certainly could happen, but I would think not.

But I don't know where you're getting the 'free-swinger' idea from. Looking at his minor league splits, his AVG/OBP differential was at .083, which is well above league average, and actually quite good. He did strikeout quite a bit in the minors, and has continued that in the majors, but at every level of professional baseball, he has managed to draw walks at a steady, solid clip. His walk totals aren't something that just randomly appeared at the major league level in Washington. There are holes in his swing, but he's always waited at the plate enough so that in the right setting he could improve slightly. I certainly don't expect Ryan Howard or whatever comparables other people might have said, but as I said earlier, I can certainly see him doing what Juan Rivera did in '06 with the Angels.

“Also, the Mets did fail miserably, but do you think that was actually the kind of team that they were, or they just got terribly cold at the worst possible time. Fact is, I would take the exact same team as last year and go to war with it and expect a playoff birth.”

…Don’t think it really matters ~ the point is that the team probably wasn’t any better than any other team out there, and for a NY team to be in that boat it generally means they will try to be upgrading in my mind…

“But if Schneider does indeed help out with the younger pitchers, then that will make this trade worthwhile too me.”

…He should have cost a lot less though, that’s a big part of this from my side…

And like I said, not a huge deal either way anyway… :)


“There are holes in his swing, but he's always waited at the plate enough so that in the right setting he could improve slightly.”

…Think Coco Crisp here. Coco in Cleveland didn’t need to swing at just anything, the protection wasn’t there to the point where pitchers wouldnt risk what he might do with the pitch ~ it lead to a better line across the board. Now added to a better lineup in Boston he has seen his BA and SLG drop significantly, his K rate is higher and his BB rate did stay somewhere close though because he did hold back from just swinging away after the other lines were hit. In the Minors he was posting a near 1to1 SOtoBB rate ~ in the majors he is K’ing much more than you would want though because he isn’t as patient as those MiL might suggest.

Right now Church is in a situation where he can just sit back and wait for pitches he wants to swing at. It means taking some walks and K’ing quite a bit ~ but still when he gets the pitches he likes he can swing away. In NY though, there will be much less play at the plate and he will see many more strikes. He wont be in a situation to choose the ones he wants, he will have to take what he gets. If he holds back from swinging it will mean a similar situation to Crisp with the BB rate about the same but the higher K rate and lower BA/SLG (and inturn OBP). If he doesn’t wait and instead tries to accept the challenge, his K rate should increase, he will see the BB rate decrease a bit, and all together he will see regression across the board…

Sorry, hope I’m being clear here ~ kind bust ATM too so if its not 100% explained I apologize, but I hope ya can see what I’m getting at…

The Coco analogy isn't terrible, but there are a couple problems:

1) Coco hasn't had a fully healthy season in Boston yet, so I don't want to gauge what he's done

2) In 2005, when Coco was last with the Indians, his offense was 6th in the Majors in batting, and 7th in runs scored. Boston was 6th and 4th this year. Essentially the same quality of offense from a pitcher's standpoint.

3) Crisp's K-numbers haven't shown enough fluctuation (especially when factoring in injury) from his career averages since coming to Boston. He has struck out at a higher rate, but not at a level that would suggest anything more than a year-to-year fluctuation that occurs with any given player in any given stat.

Like I said, Church isn't going to be exploding on to the scene here, but I'm sticking with what I said earlier...with maybe a slightly lower OBP than I had said earlier, after looking at his numbers. Again, I figure about .280/.345/.460-.470. I definitely see an .800 OPS coming for him.

Post a comment

This weblog only allows comments from registered users. To comment, please Sign In.