Mets Prioritize Pitching

If it came down to stats of last year, I would say Heilman for Swisher, but career wise, I say it would take more than Heilman to get Swisher to the Mets.

A rotation of:
1. Santana
2. Lowe
3. Maine
4. Perez
5. Pelfrey

would be incredible. However there are still bullpen holes and LF that NEED to be addressed. (as well as catcher/2B)

As a Phillies fan, I really hope that Heilman stays with the Mets.

He always seems to blow leads late in games vs. the Phils.

7thinningsstretch...you could have claimed to be a fan of any team and made that same statement and it wouldn't be any less true.

If someone would rather have Vazquez over Peavy I would recommend seeing a doctor. The fact of the matter is that Peavy is not an option for about 85% of the teams out there so other guys need to be looked into.

Matt Cain for Dan Murphy + Prospect.

What prospect do the Mets have to add to Dan Murphy for matt Cain?

Edwin Jackson would cost less than Sonnanstine, and is much more likely to be dealt because there are indicators that his 2008 success is not sustainable, and its a sell high move.

I could see a guy like Nick Evans being the starting point for EJax... young, cheap, and can play the OF, although more would have to be added.

I like the hard throwing edwin jackson as a fit for the mets. Think the Rays would be interested in Delgado as a full time dh. I know they have Pena (another left hand hitting 1b) but the rays lacked power last year and I dont think delgado for a year is such a bad idea for the rays. If not what do you think of a Heilman,Evans and Muniz to the rays for Jackson?

"What could the Mets get for Omar Minaya? I'll take Julio Lugo and a sack of baseballs!"

What's wrong with Minaya?

I'd take Jackson or Andy Sonnanstine (especially Jackson) in a heartbeat. Both are serviceable young pitchers that could slot in as a #4 or #5 at a cheaper rate and allow the Mets to address holes elsewhere. With the ability to pick up one of these guys, the Mets could even pick up a second-tier starter (instead of spending big money on a Derek Lowe) and allow Oliver Perez to walk - or, they could just insert Niese as the #5 starter next year and roll with it. Do it, Omar.

I think Fernando Martinez is a bit too similar to Desmond Jennings for the Rays to seriously perdue him. It would make more sense for the Rays to persue an MLB-ready OF option from a different team if they dealt Sonny/Jackson. I could see something like Jackson for Heilman and Francisco Pena or something along those lines though.

Price isn't going anywhere

Murphy and Beltran to the Rays for Price, Iwamura, Balfour and Howell

Beltran cannot be moved because he has a no trade clause in his contract. I want to see Murphy play a whole season before i ship him out. Murphy doesn't fit well on the Rays because he's a 3b and the rays have some longoria guy over there.

People need to stop suggesting stupid trades. Im sure the Rays would love to add Beltran and Murphy (even forgeting $$$ the fact that they are still a small market team) but losing 3 valuable arms in the process doesn't make sense.

price is their best pitcher. hes going to be next year opening day starter. he has ice water in those vains of his. hes going to be a top 8 pitcher in the game one day and he is signed for dirt cheap. i believe he signed a major league contract 6 years 8 mil correct me im wrong. hes untouchable as the guy out in san fran is.

mets fans can we please stop with the delgado trades cause you dont pick up his option and than trade him. if you were to do that you would have to ask where he watned to go. it would just set a very precdent for future FA no one would want to sign there

sonnanstine and jackson would be an incredible addition to the mets rotation.Let derek lowe go somewhere else and save the money for relief pitching.im sure a

Delgado/Heilman/and prospects would be more then enough for sonnanstine and jackson. thats gives the rays the thumper they are looking for and heilman,which for the life of me i cant understand why anybody wants.

Santana
pelfrey
maine
jackson
sonnanstine

best rotation in the National league!!

Metsconscience, why would a team that just went to the World Series give up two of their starters? They might give up one of them if they're serious about making Heilman a starter, but overall your suggestions is kinda silly.

"Sonnanstine is not equal in value to Fernando Martinez. Good Lord.

Price is touchable as it gets, although that would be an interesting deal. Theoretically I would think the Mets would have to toss in one more B prospect but Price is virtually undealable.

Martinez isn't going anywhere unless it's in a package for a superstar. Sonnanstine is a solid young starter but no where near F-Mart's trade value."

Thank you. You don't trade huge ceiling prospects one for one for a number 4 or 5 starter. No way. Package him as the centerpiece in a deal for a star if you move him. I prefer to keep him.

Michael M, I am sure Dempster will take your personal feelings into account before he makes his final decision. He wouldn't want to disapoint you.

The only thing I hate about the winter here, is that, while the rumors are better, more exciting, and come out more often, we get some real boneheads on the site that don't know dick about baseball. Trade Beltran? Trade Murphy for Price? It makes me so mad. Of course, 90 percent of Met fans want to buy high and sell low on every guy possible this offseason, which is also pretty stupid, but sighhhhh, what can I do. Adding a big LF bat and replacing Perez should, in theory, get them into the playoffs. Do the Mets make the playoffs with the production of Burrell, Manny, Dunn, or Bradley in LF for an entire year in 2008? I think that is a pretty easy "yes". Somebody talked about a platoon situation in the closers spot, using Fuentes and Cruz. I like the idea, but I prefer Affeldt to Fuentes. Then bring in a couple other low profile arms and the bullpen is set.

JP Howell untouchable? The guy is a non-closing relief arm. Yeah, he was great, but there is no such thing as an untouchable bullpen arm that isn't a closer. Maybe Marmol, but he is special. Howell is good, but he can just as easily post a 4.50/1.45 next year! I can't believe there are people who actually would say something like The Rays don't need Beltran, and JP Howell is untouchable, in the same sentence. Madness.

Michael M - Why insulted? He earned this contract heis about to receive. Everyone needs to do what they can...if the cubs deal is not close he should go. Same with Wood (this is heresy amongst cubs circles i know). not like the cubs receive nothing - four draft picks this year and money left over to grab a starter in FA or trade. personally i'd let both go. (there is fan loyalty for you)

"thats gives the rays the thumper they are looking for and heilman,which for the life of me i cant understand why anybody wants."

Yeah, who would want a versatile guy, who can relieve or start, who has posted era+ of 130, 120, 140 in 05-07, before having a bad season where he struggled through an injury. And not once did he complain, he just took the ball every time. The guy is a bulldog who takes the ball every day, is cheap, has had 3 very useful seasons in a row, throws 95 and has a great changeup. Why would anybody want a guy like that? Especially when the team with his rights is being pressured from their idiot fanbase to dump him for anything?

But hey, since you can't "for the life of you" understand it, maybe you should kill yourself?

''Agreed, but if I am giving up more then Evans/lowe level prospect then no thank you. I bet Heilman could be that same back end of the rotation 4/5 guy, especially in the NL. It makes way to much sense for Heilman to get a shot in the rotation. Jerry and Wharthen never were against using Heilman as a starter. It was Willie and Rick peterson that would never consider it. It is worth a try. ''

Yeah I agree with what to give up for Jackson or Sonnanstine. If it's along the lines of an F-Mart/Flores/Niese/Murphy then I'd keep it moving without those guys. Those players could be moved for established stars instead of back-of-the-rotation starters. However, the thing I do like about either one of those guys is it doesn't necessitate picking up a big-time free agent starter. In fact, you could either pick up another free agent starter or just let Niese go as the #5 starter and see what happens.

I think we've discussed this on here before, but I still don't think Heilman will get that shot. Unfortunately enough, he is being held out to dry as being one of the culprits of the previous two seasons and I think the ship has sailed on the team making him a starter, regardless of whether Peterson is gone. I seriously think he will be gone this offseason. I think it'll be one of those cases that we'll never know how Heilman could be as a starter until he gets traded to a noncontender and wins 12-15 games and we'll collectively hit our heads against the wall in disgust.

I definitely agree. Heilman will end up on St Louis or
Oakland and he will and up being a solid number 3 or 4 guy for the next 5 years. And then the same tools who are sitting here right now at this very second bashing Heilman, telling anybody who will listen that he has no value, will be bashing Minaya for trading away such a "valuable asset" in Heilman.

Agreed nrmax88, we shouldn't trade Heilman for peanuts based on 1 bad season. I just don't understand all the fairweather fans sometimes. That being said, the Rays will probably downplay his value and expect too much in return. Mark my words, if we don't get something exceptional in a Heilman trade, it will be another Scott Kazmir story that Mets fans will be bitching about for years.

Well, if Heilman didn't struggle against LHB, then he wouldn't have had a bad year, and this discussion wouldn't be happening. I said he was very useful as a reliever, I never said he was amazing. How do you know what his upside as a starter is? He was drafted in the first round as a SP, and has been looked into by other teams, with the idea that he would be a starter if traded. He didn't have any success as a starter because he had like 2 months to prove himself. He did throw a complete game, 1 hit shutout as a starter that should have been a no hitter. Brian Bannister can't crack 90 MPH, and has garbage secondary pitches. He relies completely on control. Comparing Heilman and Bannister is stupid and lazy. All they have in common is that they were both Mets pitchers at some point. If you could trade Heilman straight up for Jackson or Sonnanstine, sure, but giving him away for anything at all? Why? He throws 2 fastballs, a 4 seamer that is in the mid-upper 90's, and a 2 seamer in the low 90's. He has a very plus changeup, and a decent slider. Who are you to say he will have no success in the starting rotation, and his upside is Brian Bannister? Isn't it better to give the guy a shot in the rotation and atleast see if he can regain some value that he built up over the previous 3 years, before you just give him away for nothing? What is the point?

To me, there is no reason Heilman can't be atleast what John Maine is. He has better stuff, better control. More quality pitches. Yet everybody has a big boner for John Maine, and everybody thinks Heilman is a waste of space. I am obviously in the minority in this point, but if John Maine can survive with an era in the 3's, without any plus pitch besides a fastball, then why can't Heilman have success with a major league fastball, solid 2 seamer, great changeup and average slider? Just doesn't make sense to me.

The Met-inos are looking at Rodriguez, Perez, Vasquez and Ibanez....another shocker.

Jackson could probably be had pretty easily. He would make sense and should be cheap for a couple years.

Since day one of what? I don't know why I even bother. Everybody here is painfully aware of what a tool you are, with such a small amount of actual knowledge. I almost feel embarrased for you.

too*

"The Met-inos are looking at Rodriguez, Perez, Vasquez and Ibanez....another shocker."

I guess thwe fact they are also looking at Dempster, Garland, Lowe, Jackson, and Sonnanstine doesn't make your post since it doesn't support your bigoted arguement. Another shocker. But then again, what else would I expect of somebody that only posts under Mets topics so he can rant on and on and on about how much he hates latinos. I feel horrible for you. You must have a very empty life Clark. I know, I know, I know, you don't care about the Mets or whether their players are latino. But for somebody who doesn't care, you certainly spend a lot of time ranting and making your little racist jokes. I hope the cubs win a playoff game this year. Maybe then you won't act like such a bitter, racist, tool.

i dont remember baseballguru, but i agree wit you nrmax 100 %. race shouldnt be talked about but just ignore clark n rsd.

I actually really like Heilman. Last year was his only real down year. I do think he will bounce back next year and deserves a shot in a rotation but its not going to be for the Mets. I think Heilman and Niese should battle it out for the fifth spot, but the Mets have made it clear thats not going to happen.

"Mets GM Omar Minaya commented on Manny Ramirez, indicating that he plans to invest in pitching instead."

Why not invest in both? Let's assume the Mets have 50MM to spend. Let's say Manny gets a 22MM per year deal (although it might be lower base, more years, IDK), but let's just estimate on the high end.

Manny- 25MM

Fill one of two starter spots internally or monetarily cheaply. Then either re up Ollie or get (disaster waiting to happen)Garland or Vazquez or another guy who costs less than 15MM per.

Then, with the 12MM left over, shore up the bullpen. No, you can't go out and get a K-Rod or Fuentes, but you can build a solid bullpen. Pick up a solid Juan Cruz type who is effective against both lefties and righties and anoint him honorary closer, and add a few low key guys. Look through the Rule 5 draft. Bullpens fluctuate so much anyways. Resign Luis Ayala, if the price is right.

I strongly agree with the Mets plan heading into the offseason to try to prioritize and stabilize the pitching whether it be making a few kinks here and there to the starting rotation or solidifying the bullpen pitching in general should always be a major priority... If the Mets could swap Heilman for Jackson i am all for it although i do like Heilman and i believe the Mets havent given him a fair shot at the rotation, he needs to go due to his failures in holding a game in late innings when its on the line and most important.

If the rotation going into 2009 looks something like this: Johan Santana, Mike Pelfrey, Derek Lowe, John Maine, Edwin Jackson/Jon Niese it would give the Mets (and fans) hope that they have a solid rotation heading into the year... unlike last year where they had to deal with El Duque, and Pedro who were an uncertainty from day one...

But if possible though try to get a better catching tandem...thats the number 1 priority (just trying to tick nrmaxx off lol) :)

If Heilman is so good...why did he suck so bad last year. As far as being first round pick, I can run down a list of guys that flopped as first round picks, it's not even worth it. Another question, name me a guy that failed as a reliever and came back the next season as a starter? Also, we're talking about the Mets trying to "win now" with a huge payroll...why would you take the chance on Heilman flopping as your 5th starter? They penciled in Duque and Pedro last year and it was one of the reasons that they struggled in the beginning of the season. I would like them to go into the season with at least 5 honest to goodness starting pitchers. I wasn't comparing Heilman's stuff to Bannister's, my point is that it seems as though the worst case scenario is him being a league average starter. I have to believe that Rick Peterson, Omar Minaya and Willie Randolph know something...and if Heilman is such a great starting prospect, they would have taken that chance. Hell, why not try to trade for Ankiel and move him back to the rotation and see how that goes...he had great stuff too...I know that was cheap, but I don't get the "we couldn't trust him with a 5 run lead in the 6th, so let's give him 30 starts" idea. As far as saying "if he didn't have a bad year against lhb he wouldn't have had a bad year" there is a distinct difference between pitchers struggling and pitchers struggling against opposite hand hitters. It's just like Feliciano...he isn't a bad pitcher, but his role needs to be clearly defined. Heilman may have moved into that category.

BTW, you're absolutely right about this latino bias stupidity, it's retarted, it really it is.

Call me crazy, but I think Heilman/Evans/mid-level prospect would be more than a fair offer for Sonnanstine. This would also be a great move for the Mets, allowing them to get younger/cheaper, and avoid overpaying lowe/perez/fill in the blank.

I also think some more teams should call up the Twins and get their pitching.

This is how i would like to see the Mets in 2009:
C - Brian Schneider
C - Ramon Castro
1B - Carlos Delgado
2B - Dan Murphy
SS - Jose Reyes
3B - David Wright
IF - Fernando Tatis
IF - David Eckstein (in case of Murphy)
LF - Raul Ibanez
CF - Carlos Beltran
RF - Ryan Church
OF - Endy Chavez
OF - Nick Evans

SP - Johan Santana
SP - Mike Pelfrey
SP - Derek Lowe
SP - John Maine
SP - Andy Sonnanstine

RP - Brian Fuentes
RP - Jeremy Affeldt
RP - Pedro Feliciano
RP - Chad Cordero
RP - Luis Ayala
RP - Joe Smith
RP - Eddie Kunz

What is Boras thinking? I've never seen seen someone push a 4.25 ERA like that. And innings eater? Since when has an average of 5.2 innings per outing ever good?

I would love for Scott Boras to represent me in my current job. That binder would be sweet.

Alou was hurt too, should he be the fifth starter? So was Duque and Pedro...and at least Duque and Pedro have seen success as starters. My personal preference is for Heilman to be moved, but if he's not and returns as a reliever, i'm not going to go nuts. If they go into the season with him as the 5th starter I'll root for the Newark Bears next year. It's a silly move. How do you defend taking a guy that had a failed season as a reliever and making him a starter? If Heilman had been lights out last year it would be a controversial move.

I think Burgos will be ready to close in about 7 to 10 years.

On another note, my main fear with the Mets for next season is their lack of depth, which has been my biggest knock on Omar. The necessity to use Brian Lawrence as a regular starter in '07, the revolving door of fifth starters in '08, and the actual idea that the Mets wouldn't have even had a starter available for Monday's one-game playoff other than Pedro Martinez leaves me willing to criticize Omar for not necessitating depth in his free agent pickups. If the Mets have five starters next season, I would hope that they will have a decent #6 starter in the likely (and inevitable) case that someone gets hurt. This is where free agent pickups for minor league and small contracts are huge. Think about a team like Boston this past year picking up Bartolo Colon on a small deal when the staff was getting battered in the middle of the season. I would hope that Omar has learned his lesson with situations like this.

Also, I feel that the bench needs to be addressed. I called up Steve Somers on WFAN right before the '08 season started and complained about the bench (and Fernando Tatis, who I was absolutely wrong about along with 99% of other baseball fans) and I got hung up on. However, I do feel that the Mets need a super-sub to pick up that they could fill in. Guys like these are huge on a competitive team. I would promote picking up a guy like Eric Hinske, who could play all four corners willingly when needed. Also, they desperately need to get Reyes and Wright rest by giving them a decent backup that could play third and short.

Again, these are just smaller needs that the Mets have that no one seems to ever talk about.