Jack Wilson Rumors: Thursday

Probably received some weak prospects, too. Does that mean they'll enter the season with a SS tandem of Cruz/Bixler? Or would they be players for the lower class SSs like Izturis and Vizquel?

With the salary that Jack Wilson is owed and the prospects Detroit gave up last year for M-Cab and D-Wil (lazy), I'd be interested to see what they gave up.

Detroit is definitely in a win now mode.

Not that I'm saying Vizquel is of a lower class, it's just that his age has dropped his rank as a top SS.

I would like a Vizquel signing, however.

I hate to see a franchise that loses so much...they just seem to have the mindset we are losers....even in the way the Pirates draft passing on players that will cost them too much in the long run to draft #4 or #5 type pitchers...they need an overhaul just like the Rays did last year...in image I mean...no fixing the system...

why would they give up two of their top ten prospects for Jack wilson?

Looks like a good move for the Pirates, I am just happy Wilson is out of the Central. He always seemed to hurt the Cubs.

I really hope the return was decent, and if the Pirates were able to get better prospects by paying more of his contract, I hope they did it.

For some reason, I have a feeling Zach Miner was involved.

I think I can speak for a lot of Pirates fans by saying we will really miss Jack Wilson. He wasn't an all star hitter, but he made so many nice plays with the glove, and always stayed upbeat every year. For his sake, I'll be hoping they make a playoff run this year.

"I hate to see a franchise that loses so much...they just seem to have the mindset we are losers....even in the way the Pirates draft passing on players that will cost them too much in the long run to draft #4 or #5 type pitchers...they need an overhaul just like the Rays did last year...in image I mean...no fixing the system..."

Pirates have new management now. Looking at how they were willing to go over slot with Alvarez (and picked the best player available in the draft when their turn came), I really think that if there's one thing Huntington is doing right, its spending on the draft.

"Jack Wilson for Cale Iorg and Cody Satterwhite."

God, I sure as hell hope not.

Good day for the Dodgers, Wilson goes to the Tigers and Renteria to the Giants.

Detroit should have gotten Wilson last year like they planned. But Carlos Guillen was being a dick and said he wouldn't leave the SS spot for him. He wanted Renteria. That did not work out well.

PBC blog also says that the Dodgers remain players in the Wilson negotiations.

OH NOEZ, Please Tigers fianlize this NOW.

Damnit! Who makes up these reports? I really wish the people that lie about this stuff would be held accountable and lose a lot of whatever reputation they have.

"Good day for the Dodgers, Wilson goes to the Tigers and Renteria to the Giants."

My sentiments exactly. It takes the trigger out of Uncle Ned's hands

Tim,
If Wilson is unloaded, could the Red Sox move some prospects to Pirates for Ryan Doumit. Maybe Lowrie, Bowden, and Bard?

Don't do it, Ned.

I know everyone hates Jack Wilson. He's overpaid and overrated. However, with one year left and a small buyout for 2010, would it really be the end of the world for a team to pick him up?

I guess it would if they gave up too much in a deal, but for a few lesser prospects I can't see how this would hurt.

Tigers had Lugo on the table, you can debate just how not valuable either player is, but ultimately there isn't much of a difference.

Doesn't make sense for a team strapped for cash, with an already terrible farm system to surrender their top 10 talent for Jack Wilson.

"I realize Lowrie, Bowden, Bard would be too much alone, but I'm pretty sure they are not each indivdually valued more than Doumit."

In a vacuum? No. However, in terms of the Red Sox plans and makeup? Each one of them is more valuable than Doumit.

Doumit provides a risky replacement for Varitek considering his injury history and, as I mentioned, his numbers indicate he'd take a huge offensive dip in Fenway with his problems hitting lefties and the fact his power is all to the right side. He'd be a terrible fit for the Sox.

Subtract Lowrie and you're starting Lugo at short. I shouldn't even have to add more, but I will. Lowrie's got a bat made for a place like Fenway, he grabs the monster a lot. Guys who hit to the left side are valuable. He's also been pretty consistent for average in the minors. He won't crack the top of the order with Pedroia and Youkilis needed up there, but he's going to prove to be valuable in the ninth spot. In a vaccuum, I'd put him slightly around Doumit in terms of actual value. Doumit's got a lot to prove with his injury history.

Bowden on his own is more valuable, even in a vacuum. He's projected as a potential top of the rotation starter, is five years younger than Doumit and has excellent command and a quick, compact delivery.

Bard's the biggest question mark and probably the least valuable of the four. The kid is a flamethrower, but his command is touchy.

"Ryan Doumit isnt going anywhere keep dreaming."

That's not a dream to me. I don't ever want to see him in a home jersey at Fenway.

This would be a good time to trade Doumit. Jack to the Dodgers makes more sense than the Tigers, from the Pirates perspective. Bixler is capable of playing short, but there really isn't anyone in the upper minors for that spot. Bixler is better suited as a utility type infielder. He really hasn't proven himself in that capacity yet. The Pirates are not going to scare anybody this year. I would trade Jack to get the best package available, regardless of positions. Getting Hu from LA would solidify the ss spot defensively for awhile, but I don't see the need for Young. I'd rather see better pitching prospect from the lower minors. SD's haul for Greene will be a guideline.

Yeah Bowden is tagged as a #3 everywhere I've seen, not anywhere near an ace. His high prospect rankings come from the fact that he's very likely to end up reaching his ceiling, but it isn't close to the height of a #1.

"Its funny how little respect Jack Wilson and Ryan Doumit are getting on here. Yes the Pirates stink as a whole but it was Bay and Nady who looked great last year on the Yankees and the Sox."

I don't see how Bay or Nady affect the trade value of Wilson or Doumit?

Wilson may be an excellent defensive SS, which certainly matters, but he's from an excellent overall player. An OPS+ of 77 is just awful. Combine that with the 7.5 mil he's making and he doesn't have tons of trade value.

Again, Doumit is a decent backstop. Personally I'd like to believe it's short lived and he'll be due for regression.

Jack Wilson is up their at the top of defensive players in baseball. He is a leader. He can bunt. He can hit for average. Like I said he gets no respect but just remember he makes 7-10 million the next two seasons and you could get Furcal without giving up an asset. 5 teams have been talking trade for him.

Player A is slightly below average defensively and is signed for the next 2 years at $18.5 million. He is 33. Looking at his past 3 years, .295/.355/.425 is a reasonable expectation.
2006: .293/.361/.436
2007: .332/.390/.470
2008: .270/.317/.382

Player B is very good defensively (probably +10 runs, or +1 win better than Player A) and is signed for either $7.85 million for 1 year, or $15.65 million for 2 years. He is 31. Looking at his past 3 years, .280/.325/.390 is a reasonable expectation.
2006: .273/.316/.370
2007: .296/.350/.440
2008: .272/.312/.348

To me, Player A's stronger bat is almost completely cancelled out by his weaker glove. Regardless, considering both hitting and fielding, they have been pretty close over the last 3 years. Maybe a slight edge to Player A. At the same time, player A is earning more over the next 2 years and the option on Player B is nice in case he gets injured or collapses. Plus he is 2 years younger and less likely to have age cause any kind of precipitous decline.

Player A is Edgar Renteria. Player B is Jack Wilson. Both are middle-of-the-pack shortstops, but everyone hates on Wilson because they have no clue how to properly value defense. Many people seem to like Renteria because he competed for a batting title (twice in his 13 year career, but then again, Freddy Sanchez won a batting title). But really, they are very close.

Just a quick note about Doumit: He had better numbers against lefties than he did against righties last year.

As for Doumit, yes he has had some injury problems and his defense is not good. But he can't hit lefties? He's a switch hitter who hit .330/.364/.524 against lefties last year (versus .314/.355/.494 against righties). He was also better against lefties in 2005, though better against righties in 2006 and 2007. His career platoon splits are very close.

To me, Doumit is worth more than Bowden or Bard. Both have talent, but neither is proven in the majors. Maybe worth both, although not if you are really down on his defense.

Lowrie didn't exactly light the world on fire last year, but I think he'll settle in as a slightly-above-average SS. Probably put out a bunch of seasons around .285/.360/.440 with a slightly below average glove. Given that he is under team control for 6 years and Doumit only 3, Lowrie is clearly more valuable than Doumit.

"Just a quick note about Doumit: He had better numbers against lefties than he did against righties last year."

In limited at bats. He only had 103 at bats versus lefties compared to 328 against righties. That's far too small a sample size to assume any kind of marked improvement.

No way Cale Iorg is in this deal. Bonderman could be.

I have an unhealthy man crush on Ryan Doumit, but even I might be tempted by that offer. We could make the deal to make room for Wieters, oops I forgot, we picked Moskos instead, the lefty reliever. So, I don't think Doumit can be traded right now, I'd probably hurl if I had to see Paulino start over 50 games.

Adam Everett is horrible. The Tigers would be wasting money if they signed him. Ramon Santiago would put up better numbers.

No. But very few people attribute enough importance to it.

I grossly undervalued defense until reading the fielding bible excerpt titled "Jeter vs. Everett" www.fieldingbible.com has the exerpt.

Awesome read. Using 3 different methods, Adam Everett was about 60-75 plays better than Jeter in 2005.

The way I think about defense is to try and turn it into offense. If Adam Everett had 60-70 more singles (maybe with a few doubles) in 2005, his offense would have been much better. This would have equalized the difference between Everett's defense and Jeter's defense. Jeter is still the better player, but it allowed me to translate the gap in their fielding into something I could actually understand quite easily (improved triple slash stats). Jeter is still the better overall player, but it is amazing how much Everett's unbelievable defense closed the gap in 2005.

So I mentall do the same thing with a Renteria vs. Wilson comparison. If Wilson had 15 more hits per season (maybe 12 singles and 3 doubles), what happens to his batting? This equalizes their fielding and you can just look at their batting.

It isn't a perfect estimate, but it is something I can easily understand on the fly. Obviously translating everything into WARP or some other counting stat is even better. But those stats can get pretty esoteric, even if you have a passing understanding of what they mean. So I like my method for casual discussion.

"Adam Everett is horrible. The Tigers would be wasting money if they signed him. Ramon Santiago would put up better numbers."

I disagree. If you can get Everett on the cheap, I think by the numbers he was either the best or second best fielding SS in baseball last year.

Santiago has a .635 career OPS in 900+ AB. Don't let last year fool you, he had a very high BABIP if I remember right (.350+), and I'm pretty sure he's not a very slick fielding SS.

Not that I would WANT Everett, but I'd certainly take him over Santiago.

I would generally agree with you. If I was a GM looking at acquiring Wilson, I might offer a youngster or two with promise but that were a long way off, or a player or 2 that have low ceiling and some chance at being an everyday player. But with a lot of similarly mediocre free agent options, I certainly wouldn't be offering any sort of elite prospects.

I would offer up something fairly good if my team was borderline playoff caliber, I was in a bit of a budget crunch, and the Pirates ate a good bit of salary. Flags fly forever. So someone like Wilson is most valuable to teams like the Dodgers and Tigers, where his marginal improvement over the non-Furcal free agents is worth more than to a non-contender.

Hi, folks. Did anyone get a chance to watch Adam Everett play much last year? I pretty much know the Baseball Prospectus take on him: way below average bat compensated for by way above average defense. . .As a Red Sox fan, I have been looking at him as a backup middle infielder, but I saw above that his defense may be in decline, which would negate his only value. Does anyone know if that is true?

"

Hi, folks. Did anyone get a chance to watch Adam Everett play much last year? I pretty much know the Baseball Prospectus take on him: way below average bat compensated for by way above average defense. . .As a Red Sox fan, I have been looking at him as a backup middle infielder, but I saw above that his defense may be in decline, which would negate his only value. Does anyone know if that is true?"

By the numbers he was still stellar I believe on defense last year.

sorry, forgot to mention that they also said they expect the trade to happen tommorow... so just take it for what its worth

Schnoah, what news cast? You're not talking about the Mark Madden show are you haha?

By the way LOL to the Mark Madden comment.

No, it wasnt Madden, it was just a local sports outlet on a local news coverage in Pitt

"Local Pittsburgh news cast just said that the word they heard is that if Pittsburgh threw in almost all of the Salary that Detroit is willing to give up its top pitching prospect... To my knowledge isnt that Rick Porcello?"

thats effing brutal! no way man.
if the tigers were going to do that then they should go after furcal and save rick porcello

This Porcello talk, however unlikely, is based on the assumption that the Bucs pay wilson's entire contract. The Tigers are obviously strapped for cash, or else they would make a play for Furcal. Instead they would be trading a great future pitcher for an infield upgrade that costs $0. Honestly, I still don't believe the Porcello talk at all, though.

Wilson for Porcello

Wow

Thank god Tony Jackson shut it down. That 7 mill frank would have to pay would give him a heart attack.

"I disagree. If you can get Everett on the cheap, I think by the numbers he was either the best or second best fielding SS in baseball last year.

Santiago has a .635 career OPS in 900+ AB. Don't let last year fool you, he had a very high BABIP if I remember right (.350+), and I'm pretty sure he's not a very slick fielding SS.

Not that I would WANT Everett, but I'd certainly take him over Santiago"

The only thing that I like better about Everett is his ability to steal bases. Santiago can run, but he never does. Also, he IS a slick fielding shortstop with a great arm. If he could hit at all, he could probably win a gold glove in a full season.

There is absolutely no way the Tigers are giving up Porcello for Wilson. They are trying to aquire a short term SS to cover this year, and possibly 2010, until their prospects are ready. They want to compete in the coming years, and Porcello is going to be a big part of that. Not to mention, Dombrowski has said that Porcello is completely untouchable. If they are giving up a top pitcher, I bet its going to be Armando Galarraga. It will probably be Galarraga/Hollimon for Wilson. Or if they could get someone else in the deal, they may add in someone like Bonine, Lambert, Raburn.

"Come on Chin-Lung Hu and Delwyn Young. Although I am not sure what would happen to young I would imagine he would be below McLouth, Moss, McCutchen, Tabata, Morgan, and Pearce on the depth chart as of right now."

Maybe 1B, if Andy LaRoche doesn't pan out and Alvarez stays at 3B?

Sign that the hot stove leagues is pretty cold at this point.

Almost 100 posts about Jack Wilson!

"If the Tigers intend to sell high on Armando Galarraga and really think that he can't repeat his 2008, they would trade him in a package for Hardy, not a package for Wilson"

I just don't understand how you know this.

Honestly you're talking as if you are posting from the Tigers front office.