Discussion: Jonathan Sanchez

Stock shouldn't be up that much. He's still the same pitcher who for one night harnessed his stuff and threw a no-hitter. By this off-season, most baseball fans won't know his name again.

If it was in the 80's, his stock would of went up, but these days, a no-hitter is to common, you can see about 3-5 of them a season. So, with that being said, I don't think it went up much, if any.

"If it was in the 80's, his stock would of went up, but these days, a no-hitter is to common, you can see about 3-5 of them a season"

3-5 no hitters a season? Since when?

I think his stock will go up... he could be a Bud Smith type (remember that no-hitter?), but he's got to be worth enough to grab someone as useless as Adam LaRoche!

No, he did not throw a perfect game. Juan Uribe made an error in the 8th inning.

He is also the 18th pitcher to do so, and the second in the 2000's.

"Looking at his numbers from yesterdays game, he pitched a perfect game. He walked no one, not one hit, and went 9 innings."

He faced 28 batters. Perfect game definition requires a pitcher to face 27 in 9 innings.

"He faced 28 batters. Perfect game definition requires a pitcher to face 27 in 9 innings."

Technically it is possible to face 27 and not have a perfect game, and I suspect it has happened before.

Well there was an error BravesRed, so close though.

If you were watching last night then you also watched the split screen tv shot of the flaws in his mechanics early on in the season and how Sanchez has corrected them (he's been working a lot with Dave Righetti). He's not average, he has great swing through stuff, his problem is often blowing up in one inning with his arm slot, his era is deceptive. His value didn't decrease last night, he's got upside.

Plenty of horrible pitchers have thrown no hitters. The only stock price change is the Padres as a whole- they got no hit into the seventh inning the night before too.

Standtallyourgiants is completely correct. If you were fortunate enough to witness the game, Sanchez's mechanics did appear to be quite reworked. If he can keep that up, he's got a lot of upside.

I've been a harsh Sanchez critic, and even after last night's game I still see his future in the bullpen as an above average arm. However, his *potential* is great enough where it would be a waste to deal him straight up for Nick Johnson or LaRoche, given they've reached their potential and no one really believes they are the difference between an SF play-off miss and a championship.

The Giants do have the Second best record in the NL

Stand tall: March, as in march or die.

At this hour matches makes me think of the old clay-mation celebrity wrestling shorts from the late 80's. That brings a welcome grin as well.

"

Well there was an error BravesRed, so close though.

If you were watching last night then you also watched the split screen tv shot of the flaws in his mechanics early on in the season and how Sanchez has corrected them (he's been working a lot with Dave Righetti). He's not average, he has great swing through stuff, his problem is often blowing up in one inning with his arm slot, his era is deceptive. His value didn't decrease last night, he's got upside."

I was watching the Braves last night, so I didn't watch the Giants-Padres game.

was385 must be a Phillies fan: "By this off-season, most baseball fans won't know his name again."

Sanchez has always had swing-through stuff; players around the league rave about it. He's never been a pitcher, though. And if he's started to learn how to become one, if the demotion after so much talk of him developing is what bring The Big Change around, then he is, at 26, a guy who could easily develop into a 2 or 3 starter on any team. He could even, like another guy on the Giants, bloom into an ace. That guy? Randy Johnson. What was he at 26? Not much other than wild and promising.

Clubs around the league should be kicking themselves for not pulling the trigger on a Sanchez trade, especially in this seller's pitcher's market.

It's just another case of this being a golden year for Sabean. Too much is going right for him, even what he hasn't done.

"Technically it is possible to face 27 and not have a perfect game, and I suspect it has happened before."

Actually I haven't been able to find a reference to that when there were also no walks. Though in 1908 Cy Young threw a no-hitter where leadoff hitter was walked and was caught stealing second, Cy retired the next 26 hitters.

But there have been several instances like Sanchez, losing a perfect game to an error.

People blasted Uribe for his error and Sanchez losing perfection...

However, had it not been for 2 or 3 sparkling plays in center by Rowand, the no hitter would have been gone all together... It could have gone either way... That's why these things are so fluky...

I'd rather the Giants take a chance on JS. They don't need LaRoche. They need a difference maker and thats not him.

A lot of great pitchers have struggled with control early in their careers.

Of course the key is was this a blip on the radar ?

"At this hour matches makes me think of the old clay-mation celebrity wrestling shorts from the late 80's. That brings a welcome grin as well."

Haha... sorry, read it wrong.

BravesRed, just that first line was addressed to you, sorry I should have been more clear. The "You" in the second paragraph wasn't addressed to anyone specific.

Im not a rocket scientist, but I do know baseball.

Im not sure if your hopes are to have no options on your 25 man roster with power just to MAKE the playoffs then get bounced in the first round, or if you actually want to think about winning something besides a possible Wild Card.

If the Giants stand pat and do nothing, you will be doing the same thing the Pirates will be doing come the second round of the playoffs....either golfing or watching the complete teams play for more.

Common sense would indicate that a power potential bat would increase your chances...whereas a lefty with a career ERA over 5 most likely wont.

Im no general manager, and im not a sabermetrics guru, but I am shocking when it comes time to common sense.

Giants=All pitching and struggling offense.

Daveinexile, you are absolutely entitled to your opinion, Im just doing my best to make a compelling argument to make you rethink it.

Adam LaRoche may not be the perfect impact player you want, but he may be the best impact player you can get without giving anything of true value up.

Im just saying...this would be a pretty decent deal for the Giants.

For Jonathan, the Giants are the perfect situation for him if he is ever going to harness his talent. He can watch other young guys like Cain & Lincecum, see the success they are having. See the attention they are getting, and if he's hungry enough, he can learn and be on his way to the next level.

@Dempsey
The Giants obtaining Laroche is not an upgrade over Ishikawa, our current first baseman.

You have to factor defense into the equation. Ishikawa is a top 3 defensive first baseman and right now he is hitting decent enough that he is above replacement level.

The Giants should concentrate on obtaining a second baseman instead of a first baseman.

"Giants=All pitching and struggling offense."

The problem with this statement is that it is a reflection of the Giants in April. As of June/July, the Giants offense has been more than productive.

And apart from that, pitching wins out in the end, not offense... Especially in the playoffs.

I have'nt changed my position. I would still package and trade Sanchez for something they really need. I just don't want to see him traded for just Johnson or LaRoche.

SFGiant55: Cabrera like Sanchez had a good breaking ball that he couldn't locate with consistency. Maybe Sanchez will be better with it, but he's not gonna be a Randy Johnson. At best he's a #3, and he has still yet to show he can do that for an entire season.

Why would you want to trade for Holliday when guys like Johnson are out hitting him and would come for much cheaper.

"And apart from that, pitching wins out in the end, not offense... Especially in the playoffs."

Tell the Rays that. Last year they had a better starting staff then the Phils... yet an offensively superior Phils won out.

All of you make good points, but if Righetti and the Big Unit have really helped Sanchez harness his talent (and that's still an "if" right now), what you're left with as evidenced by last night is a 26 year-old lefty starter who now throws 95-97 mph with at least two other pitches. And if that's the case, he's worth a lot more than what's being discussed here.

What the Giants really need are a solid-hitting 2B with pop who can stick around a while, and a corner outfielder with pop who also can stick around a while. Ishikawa by the end of the year will have put up decent numbers and a Gold Glove defense at 1B. And they've already invested too much money with Renteria to pursue anything at SS. If a package of Sanchez and some other pieces can get you either of those two needs (2B or OF) by the deadline, then you move him. But if all you have are rentals coming back, then you hold onto Sanchez and your farm system and roll the dice to see if they can back their way into the wild card slot.

Nick Johnson is a sneeze away from a trip to the DL, no thanks. Laroche is average at best. Sanchez was throwing 96 from the left side, there are not a lot of lefthanders that can do that.To be honest the A's might only want position players in return, they might actually have more young pitching than the Giants. True a lot more raw but i think most teams would salivate having Braden, Anderson, Cahill, Mazzaro, Gio Gonzlaez, Andrew Bailey, Gallagher,Outman and Inoa. I mean geezus

"Is he enough to land a Nick Johnson or Adam LaRoche? What do you guys think?"

Huh? He's enough to land both of them. I don't really think the Giants should gamble on Nick J. and there's no way the Giants should trade Sanchez for LaRoach straight up, but I do think LaRoach is an upgrade at 1B.

i wont discredit the fact that the Giants could use a second baseman more, however, the little article directly related to Sanchez versus LaRoche value to the giants...which to me and everyone living outside of SF would agree Adam has a higher value than JS.

Many of you have seen me in here begging for the bucs and giants to matchup in a Sanchez+Laroche for Sanchez+Noonan+Burriss+Sosa type deal...

I want to give you guys both pieces that would help SF make a run, but I want to reiterate that last nights Ni hitter will have very little effect on how JS's value is viewed.

I don't care about any trade talk now...

Last night was a great moment in Giants history!

Glad to see his dad attending...you could see it in both of them, how much it meant...

there is no way the Giants will give up sanchez, noonan, and burriss for freddy sanchez and laroche im sorry. i may be mistaken but is this a contract year for sanchez? if thats the case there is no chance

I forgot, no hitters count for more than just 1 win...and his 8 losses and high 4 ERA shows his true talent also right? HMM.

Recca, perhaps you should look at statistics, mind you I said LaRoche has been in his typical slump. If you pull career 1st half and second half numbers on Adam, you might be intrigued at what you find.

All in all, LaRoche will be nearly twice as productive as Travis come years end...Just as he has been for the last 3 yrs.

I know you guys seem to be in love with Travis and JS now for some reason and I hope that works out for you.

But as a fair warning, because I suspect having the position he does, Sabean will be dealing for at least 1 bat (perhaps corner infield), and most likely a second baseman

Because Second baseman with lots of power dont get traded...so 2 players will be coming in. And Im fairly sure we can revisit this discussion near playoff time when you are so happy that Travis is your 7th inning defensive replacement rather than a Fred Lewis type.

FutureGiantsGM, that is not correct. You would have Freddy next year also. And the Pirates would pickup the remainder of Freddy's salary this year.

I know this is tough to do, but dont overvalue your prospects...they are what they are.

The reason the bucs would want that package is in a buy low case on Burriss. Noonan would BY FAR be the focal point of that deal, and Sosa is the type of pitcher the bucs are looking for. But all 3 of them are 3rd Tier Prospects (Except Noonan who's status I believe has been upgraded by Baseball Prospectus)

So really, if you think about it...2 underchievers with MLB service time and a fourth and third tier prospect for Freddy and Adam...thats a pretty fair deal when you consider the amount of salary relief our club is willing to provide yours.

I would be willing to bet that if you put Adam LaRoche in the Giants lineup, at our ballpark, he would look a whole lot like Ish. That being said, keep Sanchez. Put a package together for Freddy Sanchez not involving him. Baumgardner and Alderson won't be up this year. We need JS for the remainder. I really think that FS could come a lot cheaper prospect wise than everyone thinks. Pirates want to dump salary.

The Giants offense isn't struggling as of late. They're not good, but they're not bad. They need one more bat. They need to get Nick Johnson for the remainder of the year. He would finally give them a guy in the middle of their lineup who can work a count and get on base. However, I wouldn't give up much to get him.

Sanchez, at least, deserves the rest of the season with the Giants. I think last night showed that he just needs some motivation.

If it was in the 80's, his stock would of went up, but these days, a no-hitter is to common, you can see about 3-5 of them a season. So, with that being said, I don't think it went up much, if any.

Posted by: BravesRed | July 11, 2009 at 10:49 AM

So if 30 teams each had a 5 man rotation= 150 starters and by your assumptions we'll just say 5 No-No's, so there's room for 4 more No-No's amongst the remaining starters...
Yep off to the scrap heap, stick a fork in him he's done!!!

if Johnson is traded to the Giants and Sanchez is involved in the deal, i hope that the Nationals find another 1B option. I feel very unsafe knowing Dunn would be our 1B if Johnson gets traded.

as a phils fan the Giants scare me the most when and if we get to the postseason. A rotation of Lincecum, Cain and Zito with Sanchez as a 4 and Johnson thrown in there? If they ever got more production from their lineup they'd be scary.

That being said as far as Sanchez goes it was a very good game (and i watched the last 4 innings on mlb.com) but I'd want to see him string several more together before I said he was a solid pitcher with a strong future. Anybody remember Len Barker?

I'm not sure why the Giants are linked to Nick Johnson. Travis Ishikawa is younger, a better defender, no history of injury (like Johnson) and has more Home Runs and nearly the same amount of RBI's as Johnson does with over 100 less at bats. The question is whether or not the Giants will aquire a "Power Hitter" and Nick Johnson is not that... Adam Laroche I could somewhat understand, but not Johnson. I feel the Giants should stand pat with Ishikawa at first and look to find a future LF, since this will be the last year for Randy Winn. (Holliday, Rios, Wells) those are names that make sense, specially someone like Rios which the Giants can take on his contract and have some guys in the minors to aquire him. Could you imagine a 3, 4, 5 of Rios, Sandoval & Posey?

Ishikawa 9.6 RAR, 1.0 WAR in 208 PA / 61 G

LaRoche 8.5 RAR, 0.8 WAR in 340 PA / 80 G
(on pace to match last year)

You dont trade prospects to stay where you are or get worse (and get much worse when accounting salary and years beyond 09) - you trade prospects to make an improvement. LaRoche does not mark an improvement. He might help the offense a bit, but it will come at the expense of the pitchers; making it pointless overall.

The Giants need 2B production – they have received well below the average. They also could stand to add some bench depth. If they really see the need to upgrade with a power bat, that bat should go to LF (with Winn in Right), as Lewis/Schierholtz can be removed where a noticeable increase can be obtained (negating the need for bench depth). The only player rumored to possibly be available that would make a noticeable difference at 1B is Victor Martinez - someone possibly worth the cost if C/1B becomes a two position, three player platoon between Molina, Martinez and Ishikawa where Martinez is the one never missing a game.

Phils champs: I remember Barker. I don’t remember Sanchez uncorking pitches to the guy in the 18th row like he would once in a while. Still a reasonable point.

Pandoval: A patient bat that could hit behind Panda and in front whatever other hacker Big Head puts in #5 would do wonder for this line up. His glove work is usually really good as well though I’ve not seen many Nat’s games this year to confirm it still is. Two months of a fragile Johnson is not worth anything near what is rumored to be wanted by the Nat’s front office. People keep waiting to see this the Nat’s come to their sense or not. That is why Johnson’s name keeps coming.

Wildabeast: Last I looked the Fish are in serious danger of taking the NL East lead. I have to think, unless they go on serious slide the rest of July, Uggla goes no where tell the off season.

"To be honest the A's might only want position players in return, they might actually have more young pitching than the Giants. True a lot more raw but i think most teams would salivate having Braden, Anderson, Cahill, Mazzaro, Gio Gonzlaez, Andrew Bailey, Gallagher,Outman and Inoa. I mean geezus"

And Simmons and Devine and FDLS. Yeah, I like the depth. :)

Honestly, I don't think the A's would "target only position players in return." Young pitching is still what is in the most demand in MLB. Deals should be about "who is offering the most value" It will be easier to fix the 3B/SS holes by trading Holliday for more pitching and flipping some of that pitching to acquire SS help, switching Cardenas to 3B. If the Giants call offering a deal built around Alderson, you bet the deal gets done.

"Rios was mentioned as a possibility. what would the Jay's want? It seems there in salary dump mode. The giants have 30M coming off the books so I don't see his salary being a problem."

They also have an arbitration case that will arguably be one of the highest arb bonuses in history in Lincecum. I'd be careful about taking on LT salary commitments before seeing what that beholds.

"They also have an arbitration case that will arguably be one of the highest arb bonuses in history in Lincecum. I'd be careful about taking on LT salary commitments before seeing what that beholds"

Lincecum will get something like 12-15M? Also Renteria's 9M comes off the books in 2010. So I don't see a LT issue.

Honestly, I think if the Giants were gonna make a move for Nick Johnson or Adam LaRoche it probably would have happened bv now.

Ishikawa defense is startlingly good and it makes up for most of his offensive struggles so he end up about average. Nick Johnson is somewhat of an upgrade IF he is healthy, Adam Laroche is not. Corner OF is weak, but maybe Bowker can help with that. Their real black hole is SS where Rentaria is way below average on offense and somewhat below average at defense. A trade for Brandon Wood would sure look good, but it would take more than Sanchez. Maybe Sanchez and a good reliever (Affeldt or Romo) or a decent prospect (Conor Gillaspie?).

Even when the offense is superior, the pitching is what wins it in the end.

Posted by: richard.cordrey | July 12, 2009 at 08:53 AM
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Pitching and defense is half the game, and offense (hitting/base running) is the other half by definition. Give me some evidence otherwise that says that part of one half is bigger that the other half.

"Pitching and defense is half the game, and offense (hitting/base running) is the other half by definition. Give me some evidence otherwise that says that part of one half is bigger that the other half."

If the pitching is superior, it will neutralize or shut down the offense... Everything hinges on the quality of the pitching. If both are of equal value, then the offenses come into play, but only then.

This is not to say that superior pitching ALWAYS wins, because it obviously doesn't... And sometimes the offense gets the breaks. But I'd rather have a dominant pitching staff over a super-potent offense any day.