Olney's Latest: Atlanta's Potential Trade Partners

Why on earth would the Red Sox trade their all-star caliber center fielder to Atlanta? Doing so might (and I say m-i-g-h-t) improve their play at shortstop but it would only create a big hole in the teams' outfield defense and go-go offense!

This proposal makes me think Buster is back into the sauce again. :)

STOP POSTING OLNEY'S STUFF ON HERE.

ESPN sucks this is just further proof

Ellsbury for Escobar?
One step up/One step back for both teams.

It might be two steps back for the Red Sox (Ellsbury's speed being the difference).

"The Dodgers would love to add Vazquez to their rotation, but Juan Pierre probably wouldn't be enough given his lack of power."

LOL - thanks for the insight, Buster.

Failcoeur for a Buy one get one free coupon for Payless shoes.

Any takers?

If there is any truth to this you gotta think if they give us Ellsbury then Jordan Schafer has to be in it as well.

Cuddyer for Escobar with the Twins probably kicking in a minor league pitcher wouldnt be too terrible.

However, the Twins have already sent one middle infield with 'head problems' (Alexi Casilla) down to the minors this year and have another 'head problem' in Delmon Young that would have to play in the case of that trade. Not sure if they, or the fans, would want that.

Bowden and reddick for escobar

Where is all this Escobar is a head case coming from. People act like they live in the club house and actually know what is going on. Its funny when Chipper makes a mental mistake nobody says a thing but Escobar does the exact sam thing on the same play and he is a head case. The truth is he performs, and produces. I wish people would shut up and stop acting like they know whats going on.

"I may be drinking the same kool-aid as olney!"

You must be a BoSox fan.

Nope Braves fan, by kool-aid i meant that it was laced and i was high like olney!

I personally think the braves should be talkin with St. Louis about Ryan Ludwick. J. Ellsbury would be nice but i dont see that goin down.

T Rav,

To get Escobar, Martinez, and Choo to Boston, it would take more than Ellsbury, Lowrie, and Bucholz to get them there. You better add Bowden, Anderson, Bard, and maybe another prospect to make that happen.

Gfulla, i shoulda refreshed?, What r u talkin about?

T Rav,

To get Escobar, Martinez, and Choo to Boston, it would take more than Ellsbury, Lowrie, and Bucholz to get them there. You better add Bowden, Anderson, Bard, and maybe another prospect to make that happen.

Posted by: BravesRed | July 04, 2009 at 11:42 AM

I was being sarcastic more than anything, just taking a shot at olney and some of the speculation he comes up with.

How about the braves do nothing. Ride out this season and see what happens (It is not exactly like the NL East is the toughest of divisions). That way you can save the farm and still rebuild. Trade Vasquez only if the offer is a can't refuse and by that I mean a multi-year controlled player who could step in and help right now. The braves do not need to sell these guys for .80 cents on the dollar...if you trade either one of them it better be a deal that everyone agrees the Braves come out the winner.

Posted by: my favorite is still #3 | July 04, 2009 at 11:42 AM

Finally, the voice of reason. KC I agree with you, after the way the Teixeira deal played out, why on earth would Atlanta deal a reasonably priced and team controlled Escobar, for a 3 month rental?

Buster Olney is a complete idiot. The Braves have two blue chip outfield prospects knocking on the door of the majors in Jason Heyward and Jordan Schafer. And Cody Johnson is probably a couple of years behind them. However, they have no decent shortstop prospects anywhere in the farm system. So, please tell me why they would trade an all-star caliber shortstop for an outfielder at all. But ESPECIALLY an outfielder such as Michael Cuddyer. Give me a break already!!! Jacoby Ellsbury would match up talent wise but why would either team do that. Boston has some young shortstops that fit and would be left without a CF...Atlanta would be left without a shortstop but with two centerfielders. Olney just needs to quit talking about the Braves because he obviously knows nothing about them or their farm system.

AS for the business about the A's. The Braves are going to trade a young power hitting shortstop signed cheaply for four years for two rentals. No way...not now..not ever!!!

Trading Vazquez makes more sense but it would be a risk. The Braves would be risking that either Medlen or Hudson could take his spot in the rotation the rest of the year. That is a rookie or a guy coming off of TJ surgery.

I also think the Braves need to do nothing. The team is ok the way it is. They can then sign a free agent hitter (like Holliday) in the off season if they want to do that.

"Why would Boston send prospects to Cleveland in order to send Choo to the Braves?

Why wouldn't they just use those prospects to net themselves V-Mart?"

Who typed anything about Choo or Martinez in Atlanta? Are you on drugs?

Why are you BASHING TP? If you are getting paid millions of dollars to hit a little round ball with a stick and you cant figure out why you cant do it any more then hang up your spikes and call it quits. There is a 25 man roster and a hand full of coaches that ARE PAID MILLIONS to play a kids game. Just cuz TP is the hitting coach doesnt mean that every guy listens to him and does what he tells them too.

"Olney speculates that the Red Sox could use their young pitching to engage a third team in a trade, mentioning that Matt LaPorta, Shin-Soo Choo and Corey Hart could be a good fit."

The way I read that, was this would be a three way trade where the Red Sox woud send prospects to the third team and the third team would send the OF to Atlanta.

It really makes no sense any other way. Why would Boston trade Jacoby Ellsbury AND prospects when they could just use the prospects for a young OF to send to Atlanta...

Use common sense.

Wren should probably stand pat.

I don't see subtracting Vazquez or Escobar as an upgrade given that the type of impact bat Atlanta needs (young power hitter) is not really available right now.

Removing Vazquez from the rotation is probably a big mistake - he is our strike out pitcher, which we will need in the post season.

Trade Vazquez in the offseason! He should still have great value and can be moved for a good hitter when there is more potential trade partners to consider.

Also, Olney didn't do his homework. Vazquez has a partial no trade clause - he can't be traded to west coast teams, so the Dodgers are out of the question.

One thing to note about Choo, there's a good chance he's a one year rental. He still owes 2 years of military service to Korea by the time he's 30 and he only way Korea would waive that is if he helped win the WBC... If a team trades for him they'll just have to put him on a restricted list for 2 years.

Why not just add in Tommy Hanson, Neftali Feliz and Jason Bay while you're at it T Rav...

Hey im all for it, lets make history!

"Let me break it down for you, If Boston trades Ellsbury to Atl for Escobar, Somebody will need to play CF for Boston, Therefore you throw in the third team, they send Boston their CF and get young pitching."

And why would that make sense?

LaPorta is a CF now? Use some reasoning.

The wording of "adding in a third team" implies that it would be a three-way deal. That Atlanta would be getting that OF instead of Boston having to part with their own CF. Just like Boston included a third team (Dodgers) in order to net them Jason Bay.

Otherwise, it would be a separate deal and not "engage a third team".

I agree with getting rid of TP. Personally it wouldnt hurt my feelings if the whole coaching staff is replaced. Bobby is a great manager when it comes to veterens, but if you look at the braves we are starting to look younger and younger and Bobby just doesnt handle youth very well. As for TP, I do not see the good that he is doing as a hitting instructor. It seems alot of Braves have flaws in their swings (Francour, Kelly Johnson, Schafer) and he seems to take the approach of letting them work out of it. This is not coaching. Look what the hitting instructor in Texas is doing. He is very proactive in attacking the issues that are causing a player to struggle. We need someone like him to work with these young guys especially if the Braves are going to count on Heyward, Freeman, and the rest of the young players to hopefully be an annual contender.

The problem is sometimes as fans we get too sentimental. 1991-2005 was great, and yes we do owe it to Bobby not to just fire him. But in terms of TP we are not owed to keep him around if he is not doing his job.

Jeez you guys suck. Anyone can sit down here and spin a 3 team deal a thousand diffrent ways. But remember the Braves cant add a bunch of salary. The Braves arent going to trade anyone unless it lands the a NO KIDDING OF power hitter. If a trade doesnt land a power hitter then why not just keep what we got and wait for Schafer and Heyward to devolope and keep our farm system for less money

I'd like the Braves to just make one minor move and keep the pitching in tact. There on a five game winning streak with Hanson going tonight against the Nats. If everything goes the way it should Atlanta will be at .500 and 1 game out. The Braves get Omar Infante back after the break so he will help some. Maybe something like a 3 team deal involving Kansas City, since Drayton is the only person who would like Francouer, and the Nationals.

ATL gets- Willingham

KC gets- Francouer, Spruilli

WAS gets- 2 mid level prospects from KC

Why no mention of the Braves expiring contracts?

Im sure some contender would give up something pretty decent for Rafael Soriano or Mike Gonzalez

I dont want to see Frency leave for Willingham. Willingham is a liability in the OF. I know Frency has sucked at the plate but he is about as soild as it gets in the OF.

I suggested Escobar for Holliday/Cabrera in another message thread not too long ago. Olney is stealing from this site! Just kidding ;-)

does anyone else think that escobar's trade value is overrated. He reminds me of an average shortstop. no way the a's should shop holliday and cabrera for him.

First off, Ellsbury is border-line untouchable. Olney suggested that a player "like him (Ellsbury)" COULD fit. Meaning a good hitter with a manageable contract. Ellsbury was just used as an example of this type of player.

The 3-way trade he suggested does not involve Ellsbury. In part, the Red Sox would send one or two pitching prospects to a third team, that third team would send a hitter (ala Choo, Laporta) to the Braves, and the Braves would send Escobar to the Sox. Also the Sox would send Lugo (with his contract paid in full) to the Braves.

I don't see the Sox giving up Buchholz for Escobar, but maybe a Bowden and a second tier prospect (depending on the third team's needs).

does anyone else think that escobar's trade value is overrated. He reminds me of an average shortstop. no way the a's should shop holliday and cabrera for him.

Posted by: thegoods24 | July 04, 2009 at 12:52 PM
Ummm no, he's not average, and no, the Braves shouldnt take two players who could walk at seasons end for a player making minimum salary and is under team control til 2014.

If Boston thinks Elssbury is worth more than Escobar, haha. Escobar has been better everywhere except steals and plays the more valuable position, SS>CF. Why would ht ebraves make this trade unless Lowrie is coming back too but in that case Boston would be the idiot. It's not a good matchup. Lowrie, Bowden, and Bard for Escobar + makes more sense to me. Of course I just don't see them matching up

Second problem with this, how is Corey Hart going to help and how in the world is he worth Yunel Escobar? He is at best a marginal upgrade in RF but leaves us with a huge SS problem no thanks unless JJ Hardy and Mat Gamel are coming too as part of a bigger deal. Same thing with a azquez for Hart deal, no chance. Give up an ace for a guy who's quickly becoming the second Francoeur, im gonna pass. "Delmon Young might not be enough to entice the Braves" Hahah Buster you and your comedy, Delmon Young is just like Frenchy no value whatsoever. Finally the Braves cannot take on Holliday's and Cabrera's contracts making that point moot but even if they could or oakland sent the money why would atlanta do this? Doesn't make us any better this year and really hurts our future

Also Boston fans, Jacoby Ellsbury has been a below average defender this season so quit saying he's a gold glove centerfielder just like braves fans claim Francoeur is even though they are both below average defenders right now. Just look at the UZR/150

Ah that's true, totally forgot about Schaefer considering, well, he's in the minor leagues and underachieving.

Numberswise, Cuddyer and Span both have Escobar beat. Cuddyer's carrying a .359 OBP, .513 SLG%, and an OPS of .872 as a legit middle of the order hitter. Span is also having a superb season, as a leadoff hitter with an OBP of .380 as well as 13 steals.

Escobar on the other hand, has an OBP comparable to Cuddyer, which is sad because Escobar is a top of the order hitter, and carries a smaller OPS than Cuddyer. Sure it's bigger than Span's but also his OBP doesn't stack up to Span.

It's what stats you wanna look at, but either Cuddyer OR Span is better than Escobar. Not even close to laughable.

Pirates deal, no chance.

Cuddyer and Span play OF, Escobar plays SS. There is your biggest difference. Escoobar is a top 5 SS going forward, neither of your OF'ers are even top 20 in the OF. This is Cuddyer's best season in all likelihood, the only other season you can make a case for is 06 whereas Escobar was better last year. Yunel has a higher career OPS than cuddyer, kind of sad when you consider the positions played too. Span is 3 points higher but that's due to OBP not SLG and we need power if anything. Really the only thing both do better than Escobar is steal bases (speed)

Escobar was worth 3.2 WAR last year, Span and Cuddyer have never even come close to matching that 14.3 Million that he was worth in 200 (Span is closest at 11.8M in 08) so once again how are Span and Cuddyer better than Escobar

You're using WARP and money to compare the players value? That's ridiculous. How about use the real numbers, the one's that count in the game? Not to mention you're using last years numbers, which Cuddyer was injured and Span only played half the season. What matters is right now and right now, the numbers don't lie, Cuddyer and Span have produced in their roles. Position wise or not. I have no idea why you'd use value in talking about swapping different position player. You're using made up stats too.

Just because you don't know what something is (WAR) doesn't mean it's not appropriate for the discussion

First off, WAR and WARP are the same thing (Wins above replacement player).

I know it has an effect on their value, and I know that a team would rather have a good SS than a good OF, but why would you talk about value of a position when you're comparing players in trade talks? I agree Fangraphs is an excellent site, but why would you use it in talking about swapping players?

I'll review Cuddyer's seasons for you. 2006 was a break out year, 2007 he had injury problems with his hand, 2008 he played through a broken leg and had huge problems with his fingers and thumbs, this is the first year where he hasn't had any injury problems since 2006, and those injuries he had are pretty important to a players hitting, you know, like on his hands and leg?

What I'm saying is, if you put Cuddyer's #'s at short for the Braves, it doesn't make a huge difference, because their #'s have been similar THIS YEAR and this year alone (When it actually counts). If you put Escobar's numbers in RF for us, it doesn't make a huge difference for us either. But if you put Cuddyer's numbers in the OF for you guys and put Escobar at SS for us it makes a huge difference. If you wanna talk about positions, fact of the matter is, the Braves need a corner OF with #'s like Cuddyer's and the Braves need #'s like Escobar's at short. Comparing their value and their WARP is plain stupid. What matters is the #'s on the field if you wanna talk about swapping players, not comparing them.

WAR or WARP is very important when talking trades and if you cannot see that then sorry for you. Why would we want to create a giant hole at SS for ourselves just to improve in the OF, couldn't we just move Escobar to RF then? If the Braves trade Escobar then they are in dire need of a SS. Once again how do you not see a player's position as an impact on his trade value? If Escobar played OF his value would not be nearly as high as it is because he plays short. And if you want to defend Cuddyer witht he injury excuse then I'll put it this way if Escobar didn't have nagging leg injuries this year he would be a top 5 defensive SS as well and then his value is much greater than Cuddyer. You only want to talk OPS and OBP but you have to remember that defense is a big part of the equation too

Comparing their value and their WARP is plain stupid. What matters is the #'s on the field if you wanna talk about swapping players, not comparing them.

Isn't that what a trade is all about, finding fair value? WARP allows you to do just that and WARP takes the numbers on the field and gives you one number to judge a player on, a more effective way of comparing these two players

Under control for 8 million next year. The fact is the way the braves have budgeted their payroll so far they can let Gonzalez walk and get type A comp, resign Soriano, trade kawakami for whatever prospects they can get, pick up hudson's option or sign him to an extension, and still have 15-18 million left over to spend. Guess who's looking at 15 million per year or so this off-season? Matt Holliday, so why trade a top notch SS for a guy you can get for your 1st rd pick in a couple of months? That's the best plan imo for the braves. Also as for the pirates end of it, I'd take Yunel and Infante/Prado over Sanchez and Wilson

I rather have Montero than escobar. We are going to need a catcher of the future. I am content with lowrie. If escobar could be had for Lowrie/Reddick/Hagadone than maybe I would do it but if the braves want more for a ss with a bad attitude that the manager wants to get rid of, count me out.

ok