Odds & Ends: Backe, Ellis, Crisp, Macha, Holliday

Some links to check out as the Rockies try to win their ninth straight…


92 Responses to Odds & Ends: Backe, Ellis, Crisp, Macha, Holliday Leave a Reply

  1. Jessamynn 5 years ago

    The Phillies have gotten very, very lucky in regards to their farm system, even though they have virtually depleted their AAA/AA clubs due to those trades and through promotions (such as Brown).

    A lot of the higher prospects that they have dealt quite simply were worth the loss, seeing as the Phillies used them to acquire premium, difference-making talent. Secondly, a lot of those prospects (Carrasco, Donald, Marson, Cardenas, Maloney) were quite frankly older, low-ceiling talents who projected to be fringe major-league players. Even someone like Michael Taylor was expendable because of his age and the presence of Domonic Brown.

    Drabek is still a loss, as is D’Arnaud (although the Phillies are clearly invested in Ruiz for the next 3-4 years).

    The reason the Phillies are lucky is because their A-level Lakewood team has pretty much exploded this year with high-ceiling talent, players (Singleton, Cosart, Colvin, May, Valle, James) who are still in the 18-20 year-old range. Seeing as the major-league team is essentially locked for a next few years, these players are still young enough (and have enough time) to let develop in the minors.

    • JohnKruksWaistline 5 years ago

      I don’t think saying the Phillies have been very lucky is representing them farly. They’re just doing things well. Lakewood may have “exploded” with talent, but it’s not like people following the organization closely couldn’t see the bomb. The biggest surprises you named are Singleton and James, but aside from those two the other guys were relatively well known before this season.

      In addition, there’s almost always a consensus to trade for proven big leaguers over prospects, and the Phillies did that in spades with guys you couldn’t really argue acquiring as long as they didn’t go entirely overboard (which they avoided by keeping Brown). They’d be lucky if they dealt both Taylor and Brown and then still got above average production in right after Werth left, but that’s not the case. They’re just finally planning and doing things in a consistently productive manner for the most part (there’s arguments to be made in regard to giving out too much on contracts or spending more on the draft, but that’s about it).

      • Jessamynn 5 years ago

        Again, I think you may have misinterpreted what I meant when I said “lucky” (see my above response).

        Singleton and James may have been the only surprises, but they’re still significant surprises because they add potentially elite position players into the mix, whereas before, we were primarily talking about pitchers when referring to Lakewood.

        I never said (nor do I believe I intimated) that the Phillies did the WRONG thing by moving so many prospects from their upper-minors in recent years. I did say that the talent they received for them was elite, making the moves worth it.

        When you have a real window to win championships, you take it. The Phillies are in the midst of a 5-6 year window, and obviously they’re doing the right thing by going for it while they still can.

    • While I agree regarding the expandability of many of the players traded away, I don’t see how you can say they are “lucky”. Their current MLB team includes Utley, Howard, Hamels, Rollins, Victorino, and Ruiz, all home grown. That’s not luck, that’s good scouting.

      You mentioned their Lakewood team, and rightfully so, but again, that’s not luck as it is good scouting. Those players have been drafted in the last 2 or 3 years, when the Phillies have had late round picks. Most every team in the league had chances to sign guys like Singleton and Cosart, but didn’t.

      You end by saying that their current MLB team is locked up which allows their kids in Low-A time to mature. That doesn’t exactly sound like luck either, it sounds like solid planning.

      Yes, I am a Phillies fan, now to show my objectivity, they are not going to be able to retain Werth, which will hurt because of the loss of Taylor. Brown has a higher ceiliing, but Taylor was more MLB ready (IMO). Brown has stuggled in the MLB so far.

      Also, one player you did not mention was Jay Happ, also home-grown, who was traded for Oswalt. His absence will be felt sooner rather than later, because Oswalt is only signed through next year, and Halladay will likely not be able to maintain this workload as he moves into his later 30’s. Plus, Blanton is simply average.

      • Jessamynn 5 years ago

        I think you’ve slightly misinterpreted what I meant with the word “lucky”. I didn’t mean it in a negative way, or to imply that there wasn’t planning involved – rather, I meant that the Phillies are “lucky” to have so much talent at that level.

        The analogy would be that if I was your girlfriend, you’d be “lucky” to have me because I’m so amazing :)

        In my assessment of the team, I’m not mentioning the current core of Howard/Utley etc. b/c we all know what they are, and what they’ve done. The article was about the viability/depth of the Phillies system, after all.

        My opinion of Michael Taylor is…indifferent. Obviously I have not had a chance to see him play this year (as he’s playing in Sacremento) but it’s probably safe to say that he’s regressed, or at the least hit a wall.

        You’re right about Happ, totally forgot about him.

      • das411 5 years ago

        Victorino was not home grown, thanks Dodgers, but don’t forget that the Phils system has also produced the following average to above average players on other teams: Marlon Byrd, Michael Bourn, Scott Rolen (all three all-stars this year), Brett Myers, Randy Wolf, Gavin Floyd, and Pat Burrell (yea yea but look at how he’s done in SF). The REAL questions are who deserves more credit for this run, Ed Wade or Mike Arbuckle…and why why why did they decide to leave Ruben in charge of it??

  2. Andrew Jones 5 years ago

    The Phillies are a well run franchise. They set themselves up for a good long run as a championship contender, built up their financial clout, and are still well stocked with talent to step in when the core declines over the next 3 or 4 years. They should also have a bunch of high picks in next years draft with Werth as a type A, and Durbin and Contreras as type Bs (assuming they offer arb on one or both).

  3. wheresthehawk 5 years ago

    I don’t know what’s up with the Cubs manager search, but IMO, any search is flawed as long as Hendry remains the GM. I certainly hope that a move isn’t made before the end of this season. An interesting observation from Scott Van Pelt Thursday, what is wrong with the Cubs? They have the AAA Manager of the Year, Hall of Famer, and wants and is asking for the job, and the Cubs are talking to Freddie Gonzalez again? What the hell did Ryne Sandberg do, set a baby on fire? What gives? Ricketts Family To Do List.1) Fire Hendry2) Find GM that you can trust (Options are out there, including Bob Brenly…He’s actually WON A WORLD SERIES!!!)3) Reconsider Quade and Trammell for Manager. Also—Billy Williams? What about adding the Hawk to the Coaching Staff (AND RETIRE HIS NUMBER!)4) Bring Santo into the Front Office5) John Hart for GM? Dave Valle Pitching Coach (although I like Rothschild)6) Look to your Bench! You have two former managers there (Regardless of what that idiot Hendry says)! Rothschild and Trammell are BOTH former MLB Managers!7) Get Rid of Hendry (Oh, did I sat that earlier?) well…8) GET RID OF HENDRY!!!

    • Jessamynn 5 years ago

      I don’t know much about Sandberg’s managerial career thus far, but I will say that there’s a difference between managing AAA and managing the majors.

      Even though it’s AAA, the minor leagues are still about teaching, above all else. In the majors, it’s about execution. Not to mention that there are no day-to-day external responsibilities to worry about in AAA, such as dealing with the media.

      That Sandberg is a Hall-of-Fame player has no direct bearing on how competent he is as a major league manager. He very well may be an excellent MLB manager, but I’m saying that at this point, who knows?

  4. Haha, no farm system is in “pretty good shape” after trading for people like Roy Halladay, and Roy Oswalt. They might have some solid pieces in the lower levels but, the Phils have really depleted they’re farm system.

    • Muggi 5 years ago

      That’s kinda the point of the article…their system is so deep at A/AA, they’re able to absorb the losses and still have quality.

      Honestly as a Phils fan, the only players/prospects they’ve traded in the last two years that HURT were Drabek, D’Arnaud, Happ and Villar….and Villar’s the only one of that bunch the Phils don’t have another guy as good or better in the system.

      • Jessamynn 5 years ago

        I wouldn’t say they’re deep at Reading – they have some nice players there, but no one that projects to be star-quality.

        My point (that I outlined in an earlier comment) is that depleting the upper levels hasn’t really mattered because the players they lost were all either low-ceiling players (Donald/Marson etc.) or blocked for the foreseeable future (D’Arnaud). Besides, to get quality you have to give quality, and the Phillies have Halladay and Oswalt to still show for the moves.

      • Wait, they have a pitcher better than Drabek in the minors?

        • Ferrariman 5 years ago

          thats what i was thinking. unless he has high hopes on their 2010 1st round pick, i don’t see anyone in the Phil’s system that is as good/better than Drabek.

          • moonraker45 5 years ago

            not only that, drabek could have been useful to their rotation this year. The back end of their rotation is awful

  5. woadude 5 years ago

    The Johan trade was hilarious, the Yankees made a firm offer to the Twins because they really wanted him, The Sox wanted him too but the Twins liked the Yanks prospects more and thought “hey its the yankees, they dont care for them, they want proven talent” and the Yankees balked because it included Chamberlain, not Hughes, he was actually a throw in as was Ian Kennedy, they wanted Hughes, Kennedy and Chamberlain, and the Yanks balked, offered some other pitcher i believe it started with an “A”, anyways it was a 3 blue chips and a low risk prospect for a stud pitcher and the Twins turned it down, and so the Sox asked the Twins what they wanted expecting some sort of similar offer and they asked for pretty much every prospect on their farm, they wanted Lester of course, Jed Lowrie,Coco Crisp or Jacoby, Michael Bowden was wanted and a couple others and the Sox slammed the phone down and soon after the Mets low balled the Twins and they have since nothing to show for having Johan Santana.

    • Zack23 5 years ago

      That’s not how the story goes.

      Twins asked:
      Hughes, Kennedy, and Melky (2 of the 3)
      Lester, Buchholz and Ellsbury (2 of the 3)

      Red Sox offered:
      Lester, CoCo, another prospect, then they swapped Lester for Ellsbury

      Yankees offered:
      Hughes, Melky, another unknown prospect.
      Joba was untouchable, and they refused to add Kennedy to the package.

      Go find Feinsand & Madden’s article from the Daily News on 12/3/07 and read the actual details

      • 0bsessions 5 years ago

        That seems to kind of contradict itself. It the Twins wanted two of Hughes, Kennedy or Melky and the Yanks offered two of those three…that just doesn’t add up.

      • 0bsessions 5 years ago

        That seems to kind of contradict itself. It the Twins wanted two of Hughes, Kennedy or Melky and the Yanks offered two of those three…that just doesn’t add up.

    • Dave_Gershman 5 years ago

      I think Zack is right.

  6. woadude 5 years ago

    It was also speculated Johan didnt like the Red Sox

    • start_wearing_purple 5 years ago

      Despite the fact that he had a full no trade clause and only authorized the Twins to talk to the Red Sox, yanks, and Mets? I’m gonna say that speculation is bull.

      The truth about that trade was more likely the yanks and Sox were fine with not having Santana as long as the other team didn’t get him. In the end the Sox kept Lester who’s become the staff ace anf the yanks kept Hughes who still has talent. Mets low balled the Twins because they were basically the only bidder.

      • Still has talent? C’mon give Hughes more credit. He’s not Jon Lester, but just saying he “still has talent” is out of porportion when he’s gonna be a good pitcher for the Yanks for years to come.

        • start_wearing_purple 5 years ago

          I’m waiting for the real production to come before I declare him the great pitcher yanks fans keep saying he will be. Right now he’s a middle of the order pitcher on most staffs with the potential to become more. His numbers, especially after June, haven’t exactly screamed anything more than “young pitcher with more to prove.” So I’d say I’ve given him the right amount of credit… he’s got talent and he could be a damn good pitcher, but right now he’s a middle of the order pitcher.

        • moonraker45 5 years ago

          he’ll get more credit when he deserves it.

    • icedrake523 5 years ago

      He didn’t want to go to the Rangers who supposedly had the best offer.

  7. icedrake523 5 years ago

    The article on Santana is typical. Hindsight is 20/20. The Red Sox may not regret trading for Santana, but it won’t be long until they’re dying to get rid of Beckett and Lackey. The Yankees are in the same boat with Burnett. Let’s see how CC and his 400 lbs last over the remainder of his contract. Plus, the Mets didn’t give up anyone they miss. The Twins have gotten rid of everyone but Deolis Guerra who isn’t lighting it up in the minors.

    • Dave_Gershman 5 years ago

      Actually, not really. They pretty much got Johan for Guerra, Rauch, and Hardy. 1/1/2 years of Rauch and 1 year of Hardy > time that Humber and Mulvey were on the Twins. Plus, Johan and the Mets haven’t won a world series yet, which is what was expected when they traded for him.

      • icedrake523 5 years ago

        The Mets didn’t give up Rauch and Hardy though (the latter is likely to be non-tendered though). So it’s irrelevant as to what the Twins ended up getting for him. I think it’s dumb to judge a trade by whether or not the team won a World Series with that player. The bottomline is the Mets have been closer to a World Series by trading for Santana. If they hadn’t traded for him, you’d be reading articles ripping them for passing on him and how those players have done nothing for them.

        • Dave_Gershman 5 years ago

          The Mets have not been closer to a World Series by trading for Santana. They
          choked in ’08, were terrible in ’09, and had a bad season this year. Whats
          next?

    • CC and his 400 lbs… He’s one of the top pitchers in the AL and idk what the hell you’re trying to get at by saying “let’s see how CC and his 400 lbs over the remainder of his contract”. No I’m not mad or defensive but I just hate It when people judge players over their weight, when their performance is outstanding.

      • icedrake523 5 years ago

        CC’s numbers have already tailed off the past 2 years though. He’s still a good pitcher but it’s going to be hard for him to maintain this level of production as he ages due to his body type.

        • It’s actually going to help him, being so big. Numbers don’t matter if he stays healthy and effective, which he has been.

          • icedrake523 5 years ago

            Yeah, being big sure helped Mo Vaughn. His numbers are going to determine whether or not he’s effective. Saying they don’t matter is just foolish. How else is his performance going to be judged?

          • Well as far as I have seen, you’re judging CC’s performance by his weight… and again, if he can stay healthy and effective, he’s going to be fine. And if he stays healthy and effective his numbers will be fine. And Mo Vaughn is a hitter not a pitcher. He didn’t have to throw around 100 pitches every 5 days and every 3 in the postseason. A pitcher and a hitter are completely different. And if CC has to lose a couple of pounds, he will.

          • moonraker45 5 years ago

            in all honesty, you saying his weight will be fine and he will continue to perform is just as presumptuous as the guy who said that his weight will become an issue..in reality time will tell.

          • sacu 5 years ago

            “And if CC has to lose a couple of pounds, he will.”

            And you know this, how?

          • sacu 5 years ago

            Since when do “healthy” and “obese” go in the same sentence?

    • CC could pitch like oliver perez the rest of his contract and it still would be much better then trading Hughes for Johan.

  8. myname_989 5 years ago

    Realistically, the only prospects traded by the Phillies that have lived up to the hype on their new teams are Kyle Drabek, who’s had a remarkable year, JA Happ, who’s been solid in Houston, and Adrian Cardenas, who had a very good season in Oakland’s AA affiliate. The rest of the prospects that the Phillies have traded away recently have lost a lot of value since they’ve been traded, and have performed very poorly. That being said, they’re prospects. There is always the chance that they can come out of nowhere and turn it around.

    What really hurts are some of the moves that general managers like Ed Wade have made in years past. When you look at what the Phillies gave up in the deal with the White Sox for Freddy Garcia a couple years ago, you just want to pull your hair out. They gave up both Gavin Floyd and Gio Gonzalez, either one of which could have been effective out of the Phillies’ number 5 spot in the rotation in 2010. Even when they acquired Kyle Lohse in 2007, they gave up a very good lefty in Matt Maloney.

    I guess what I’m saying is that giving up guys who are underperforming to get stars like Roy Halladay, Roy Oswalt and Cliff Lee is being blown out of proportion, compared to some of the deals that the Phillies have made, like giving up quality prospects like Gavin Floyd, Gio Gonzalez, Matt Maloney, etc., for flops like Freddy Garcia and Kyle Lohse.

    • Dave_Gershman 5 years ago

      I always enjoy your comments and discussing things with you, and I think were going to have another discussion now because I’m going to disagree a little bit.

      First of all, Kyle Drabek did not have a remarkable year. He had a good year, but the Jays expected a lot more than what he did in AA. Yes, he threw a no-hitter…Yes, he stayed healthy the whole season…But having seen most of his season in person and following him very closely, I can tell you that the Jays expected a bit more…I can explain more in depth if you want, but I want to get the point…

      I would like to see that list of 20, but from what I recall, the 20 players are, Michael Bourn, Adrian Cardenas, Jason Donald, Kyle Drabek, Jason Knapp, Carlos Carrasco, Lou Marson, Jason Jaramillo, J.A. Happ, Anthony Gose, Jonathan Villar, Travis D’Arnaud, Michael Taylor, Josh Outman, Matt Spencer, Greg Golson, Gavin Floyd, Gio Gonzalez, Brian Schlitter, and Matt Maloney…I could have missed a couple but assuming thats the list, the Phillies made 12 mistakes out of the 20…Not 3. As you said, prospects are prospects and most of those guys are still young, but most of those guys are very young and have tremenous upside such as Knapp, D’Arnaud, Villar, and Gose.

      I just don’t think that it’s fair to say that all but 3 have performed “very poorly”, which is ridiclous.

      • Sniderlover 5 years ago

        Please do explain more because Drabek did have a tremendous season. He was even named Eastern League pitcher of the year. Considering his poor start, he ended with an ERA of 2.94 (not bad huh?) and started to cut down on his walks. He made improvements throughout the season. He’s already a guy that doesn’t give up many hits (I believe it was only 7 hits per 9). His SO rate was some what disappointing but that’s something that can still improve considering his stuff and the fact his 3rd pitch is still improving. Also staying healthy was huge for Drabek. He also pitched well in the playoffs though it was only 1 game.

      • myname_989 5 years ago

        I always enjoy a good debate. Haha.

        I don’t understand your point on Kyle Drabek. The guy really did have a remarkable year, better than the year that made him “untouchable” with the Phillies. (Obviously, nobody is untouchable when you’re getting Roy Halladay.) The only thing that seems inflated is his BB/9 rate, but that’s what minor league seasoning is all about, no? At 23 years old, he’s poised to start the season in AAA, and Keith Law (via Twitter), expects both he and Zach Stewart to receive considerable time in the majors next season. In my mind, that doesn’t happen without a remarkable 2010. Granted, I don’t follow him as closely as you do, not since he’s been traded anyway, so maybe there is something I’m missing. He seemed like a class act in Philadelphia.

        I don’t think it’s ridiculous to say that only three prospects that the Phillies have traded away have done well. It’s the truth. We can upgrade that to five to include Josh Outman and Brian Schlitter, who I admittedly forgot about, but still, you get the idea. I understand that these guys are prospects, and their numbers aren’t all that important, but still, you’d like to see them produce to what they’re capable.

        I made a mistake in my first post as well. Reading over it, I didn’t include Gavin Floyd and Gio Gonzalez in my three, despite arguing in their favor. So that’s seven. Even then, I definitely don’t see 12 mitakes in that group. I’m assmuming that when you say “mistake,” you’re taking into account all of the variables, inclusing usefulness. I look at that group and see seven mistakes: Gavin Floyd, Gio Gonzalez, Josh Outman, JA Happ, Kyle Drabek, Brian Schlitter, and Matt Maloney.

        Even then, when you break that down further, Outman turned into Blanton, Happ turned into Oswalt, Drabek turned into Halladay, and Schlitter, who would be traded for Scott Eyre, who would become a very useful lefty out of the Phillies bullpen. I don’t think you can call any of those guys, “mistakes,” seeing as you have to give something of quality, to get something of quality. That leaves Gavin Floyd, Gio Gonzalez, and Matt Maloney as the only real “mistakes” the Phillies have made. Obviously, those are three guys I’d like to have back, but hindsight is 20/20.

        So, yes, by my own mistake, it was ridiculous to say that only three have performed well, when it should have been 5 – 7 over the course of five years. With that in mind though, it’s ridiculous to say that the Phillies made “12 out of 20″ mistakes, when only three really strike me as a miscue. With that aside, I know numbers aren’t the end all be all, but if the Phillies held on to every prospect with “high-upside,” they’d be in a far worse situation than they are now. Like I’ve said, only a handful have actually shown that high-upside.

        • Dave_Gershman 5 years ago

          Well The 12 I was talking about were Michael Bourn, Kyle Drabek, Jason Knapp, Carlos Carrasco, Villar, Happ, Cardenas, Donald, Gio Gonzalez, Gavin Floyd, Anthony Gose, and Travis D’Arnaud…Here’s my reasoning…I’m assuming I don’t have to explain my reasoning for Drabek, Bourn, Floyd, Gio, Cardenas, and Happ. But Knapp made some really good strides in the Indians organization this season, Jason Donald is in the Majors, Jonathan Villar looks to be a very good player, Gose is extremely raw but has tremendous upside, Carrasco has been great since he’s been called up, and D’Arnaud has made some great strides defensively. I just didn’t think it was fair to say that they have been playing “poorly” even if they are still in the lower levels of the minors.

          Here’s the thing about Drabek…He obviously has made tremendous strides and has grown as a pitcher…But even though a 2.94 ERA is very, very good, Drabek was expected to cut down on his walks, and avoid the breakdown innings which sometimes happened because he was throwing 96-97 in the 5th and walking everybody because he was rushing to get out of the inning and striking everybody out. He is still learning, but isn’t a complete pitcher. He also sometimes has problems with his delivery, following through and throwing downhill…He walks some batters and gets a fair amount of K’s, but sometimes loses focus on the mound and gets agrivated when he makes a mistake. When he’s on, he can dominate, but when he has a rough outing, it is a terrible outing with something like 5 walks and 5 or 6 ER’s. He also didn’t have as good of command of his curve as he did in the past. That is his bread and butter pitch…His best pitch and when he just uses his fastball and throws 96-97, he gets hit. Also, I think he deserves best pitcher in the Eastern League, but there aren’t that many great EL pitchers. Kyle Gibson and Rudy Owens might have been the only other contenders for that award although Zach Stewart, who I can get in to another time, could have won that award as well. Betances only made 2 starts so he couldn’t have won it obviously. Also, Keith Law did say that, but I would trust Jim Callis more when discussing pitchers like Drabek. They don’t want to rush him, but to be honest, he isn’t Major League Ready and he may not be until August or September of next season…I really do think that Drabek grew as a pitcher and is learning how to pitch, but he isn’t that close to being Major League Ready and needs at least a half season of more seasoning before he is Major League Ready. You can call some of his stats tremendous, but I don’t think it’s fair to say that he had a tremendous season, especially with what he was expected to do, which was to get to at least Triple-A by the end of the minor league season. And a september call up doesn’t really count. Drabek also ranked 12th in FIP among EL pitchers. But don’t get me wrong, I do think he is the next Zach Greinke, but not just yet. Soon, but not just yet.

          You feel me Dog?

          • Sniderlover 5 years ago

            As I mentioned earlier, he had a very rough start and was walking guys all over the place but as the season went on, he improved his walk rate and really started to cut down which is why he ended up pitching so well. Walks are also usually a problem with young pitchers/prospects, even elite ones.

            And as you said, he is still learning and learning to grow as a pitcher which is good. Personally, I don’t think he is MLB ready right now and should get some work in at Triple A but he is close, could be a mid-season call-up.

            The same can really be said about Stewart. Pitched pretty about early on and was walking guys all over the place but as he came back from injury, his control showed improvement and he really started to take off. Just look at his playoff performance (7 IP, 3 hits, 1 BB, 10K and 10 groundouts). That is really as effective as you can get and like Drabek, he will also need to keep his walk rate down if they want to make it the bigs but that should come with experience like it did with Cecil and Romero (see what happens when you walk guys like today).

          • Dave_Gershman 5 years ago

            Stewart is a different story and some think he will end up in the pen and
            you are right mostly about Drabek…Probably a mid-season call up but needs
            to work hard. He really didn’t cut down on the walks though…He had a
            couple starts in august for example where he walked 4+ and didn’t have his
            stuff. Gave up runs in bunches which he is prone to do. But you’re mostly
            right. I simply just said it wasn’t a tremendous season…It was a pretty
            darn good season.

          • myname_989 5 years ago

            I feel you… sort of. Lol.

            All of your points on Drabek are extremely valid, but all in all, the kid had a really good season. I don’t think that a slightly inflated walk rate or poise on the mound really dictates the difference between a “very good” and a “remarkable” season. It’s kind of just playing on words, and all in all, strays from the point that trading him may of hurt the Phillies in the future (or may not have.)

            I don’t really see how trading any of the guys you listed were mistakes. Selling high on Michael Bourn (plus Geoff Geary and Michael Costanzo) was easily one of the best trades of the ’07 – ’08 offseason. One can argue that without Brad Lidge in 2008, the Phillies wouldn’t have won the World Series. That alone invalidates trading Michael Bourn being called a mistake. Then when I look at some of the other guys you listed…

            The Phillies weren’t going to get Roy Halladay without trading Kyle Drabek. The Phillies were able to get Halladay to sign a three year extension, keeping their ace around for four years. Trading Drabek for Cliff Lee would have been a mistake, but not Roy Halladay. Trading JA Happ for Roy Oswalt may come around to haunt the Phillies in a couple years, but for right now, adding Roy Oswalt to that rotation makes it simply fearsome in a playoff series.

            Even in the Phillies organization, there were questions about his health and work ethic, evidenced by his injured shoulder at age 19. His best weapon is an upper 90’s fastball, and although I’m not sure what the strides you spoke of were, it was highly noted that until he developed his offspeed pitches, his fastball was straight and hittable. I’d hardly call Jason Donald being in the majors with the Indians a mistake for the Phillies, Gose’s only talent may be his speed, and I honestly don’t know enough about Villar to have an opinion on him.

            Cardenas may end up being a solid middle infielder, but he was tagged as a second baseman, and was blocked by Chase Utley and Jimmy Rollings. His minor league numbers haven’t been anything special, and if he gets a shot in Oakland, it’s probably because they don’t want to pay Mark Ellis. Finally, even if D’arnaud has improved his defensive game, he came up through the Phillies organization as a defensively talented player, so I’d assume he’d be making strides offensively by now. Even then, the Phillies are committed to Ruiz behind the plate.

            I just don’t think those are mistakes. They’re good baseball decisions.

          • Dave_Gershman 5 years ago

            You know what…We had a misunderatanding. I didn’t mean that the Phillies
            mistakenly traded them. I just meant that they weren’t playing poorly in the
            minors or were busts…Or clear cut wins for the Phillies.

            To me, tremendous and very good…I don’t know they are just a bit
            different. But I hope you understand what I mean. Just after seeing him a
            lot this season, it’s hard to say he was tremendous. But I can say he was
            quite good. But still, when he is in the Majors next July and throughout his
            career, this conversation between you and I won’t mean a thing right?

          • Dave_Gershman 5 years ago

            After all of that!!! He’s pitching Wednesday making a spot start in Baltimore!!!!!!!!!

          • myname_989 5 years ago

            Hahahahaha. Good for Kyle, that’s exciting. He could pitch his way into the 2011 rotation, with some success up here this year, imo. If not, he will surely be up by July, as you said.

          • Dave_Gershman 5 years ago

            Yeah no doubt. I’m definetly going to watch him on wednesday. Hope you will
            too.

          • moonraker45 5 years ago

            “When he’s on, he can dominate, but when he has a rough outing, it is a terrible outing with something like 5 walks and 5 or 6 ER’s.”

            Realistically this isn’t special to only Drabek, every pitcher has bad outings, look at romero,cecil, morrow, even marcum, have all blown up on occasion this season. Even doc and sabathia have had terrible outings. but the fact that he kept his era under 3 means that it didn’t happen enough to be a concern.

          • Dave_Gershman 5 years ago

            Its just that he was expected to cut down on those bad innings and get to at least AAA. He’s a great pitcher done get me wrong but he still has some work to do.

          • moonraker45 5 years ago

            I dont think he was supposed to get to AAA… Jays don’t really stress having their stud pitchers sent to vegas.. bad pitchers park, and too much temptation!

          • Dave_Gershman 5 years ago

            But he’s been called up already and that’s what matters. And I’m sorry for my stupidy before. But I’m so excited to see him pitch!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

          • Dave_Gershman 5 years ago

            Speak of the devil…Guess who’s pitching wednesday in Baltimore!!! My boy Kyle!!!!!

  9. CitizenSnips 5 years ago

    “The Boston Globe’s Peter Abraham says that Theo Epstein and Brian Cashman might be celebrating the “best deal they never made” — trading for Johan Santana — following the announcement that he requires shoulder surgery.”

    Oh give me a f’n break. He’s still been a solid pitcher despite his K/9 dipping quite alarmingly. He was tremendous in 08, very good in 09 despite ending early and even despite losing all of September still managed a shade under 200 IP and a sub 3 ERA. Probably could have 4 or 5 extra wins had the Mets actually scored more than 0 or 1 run in some of his games (who seriously pitches 3 straight CG and goes 1-2?). Yes the money coming to him is daunting but even with these injuries he’s always bounced back to a very solid at minimum season. Epstein and Cashman can laugh all they want but, although a slight bit less expensive, they did sign Lackey and Burnett.

    • Dave_Gershman 5 years ago

      Oh he went there! A.J. and Lackey!! haha

    • Vmmercan 5 years ago

      Uhh and the Yankees won a World Series with Burnett (the Mets haven’t with Johan), plus they ended up getting CC instead, who, again, they won a World Series with.

      If you’re going to be hyper critical of signing Burnett due to not signing Santana, you would be misguided. The money it would have cost in a Santana extension went to CC who has been leaps and bounds more effective and successful in New York. Burnett was a result of Mussina retiring, and contracts like Giambi and Abreu, among four or five others, coming off the books.

      • Vmmercan 5 years ago

        Oh, and CC didn’t cost any prospects whatsoever, so anything from Phil Hughes or Joba Chamberlain can be added as a bonus

      • malcolmec 5 years ago

        I don’t think Sabathia has been “leaps and bounds” more effective than Santana in New York. Sabathia has a 3.26 ERA and 127 ERA+ in 439 innings with the Yankees. Santana has a 2.85 with a 145 ERA+ in 600 innings with the Mets. You could argue that Sabathia faces better offenses on a regular basis, but the term “effective” doesn’t really take that into account. I’ll give you that Sabathia has been more “successful” in terms of W-L, but that’s mainly just because the Yankees as a team have been more successful.

        • Don’t forget Santana has declining stuff due to his lower K/9. And you could argue Sabathia has been the more effective one since he faces the better offences and dominates them. That isn’t effective? And Sabathia has been what you call “successful” staying healthy, eating innings, and having a good ERA. Santana, while being effective, hasn’t stayed healthy.

          • jwredsox 5 years ago

            Well in fairness Sabathia’s K/9 has dropped too. But I agree Sabathia has been better in the duration of the deal.

          • ellisburks 5 years ago

            It’s too bad innings isn’t the only thing CC is eating! 😉

        • Vmmercan 5 years ago

          Sabathia has 439 regular season innings (not to mention dominant postseason innings which we will exclude since Santana is yet to pitch in one with the Mets) compared to Johan’s 357 in the same time span.

          Tough to argue “effective” in the 82 innings Sabathia pitched where Santana was either hurt or not lasting as long.

          You’re counting Santana’s 2008 season which is all fine and good but that does’t compare to CC’s time in New York because you’re giving Johan an extra year of comparison.

          So Johan went 599 innings in his last three years?

          CC went nearly 700 innings.

          What’s to be said about half a season of extra value CC added over the past three seasons at the same pay rate? Plus a postseason campaign with no injuries to be seen?

          • Beat me right to the point with innings! I guess 2008 does count with CC even though he spent that year with CLE/MIL. Pitching in the postseason, and staying healthy doesen’t count to Johan either.

    • jwredsox 5 years ago

      Except the Red Sox might have had to part with Lester. I think that would have been big.

      • CitizenSnips 5 years ago

        I honestly didn’t think of it in terms of pieces moved until just now. Whoops.

  10. rsanchez1 5 years ago

    I think things would have been different if Santana was with Boston. The Mets have been very unlucky with injuries the past few seasons. It could be bad luck, could be a curse, could be Mets trainers…

    • Zack23 5 years ago

      Mets trainers have nothing to do with Johan’s injuries.

      And look at Boston’s trainers this year with Ellsbury & Pedroia, played them both with broken bones- does that mean Beckett missing 3 months with a bad back is the Red Sox’s fault?

      • jwredsox 5 years ago

        Pedroia and Ells were healthy when playing but reinjured themselves. Ribs are horrible to deem healed because all it takes is one headfirst slide to hurt them again. You’d be kidding yourself if you didn’t think the Sox took all precautions with those two guys to make sure they were healthy enough to play.

        • Zack23 5 years ago

          Ribs are horrible to heal when the team refuses to give the guy MRIs that he asked for; then the media can jump all over him for being soft and this and that, then its revealed he still has broken ribs.
          And Pedroia did not re-injure it, he tried to play through the injury and it didn’t work.

          • Zack23 5 years ago

            Not to mention that the Sox kept telling him he was fine and to go play, then he had to fly to California to get the correct diagnosis from other Doctors.

  11. I don’t care how well Santana pithed, I’m still glad we didn’t give up Hughes. CC has been more effective, and In 2009 an injury filled campaign for Johan, CC finished Top 10 for Cy Young award, and now that Johan is out for the season, CC is once again a Cy contender. Phil Hughes has also ha a breakout season and will continue to get better. If the Yanks hadn’t monumentally failed on Joba he would have been a solid starter, and the Yanks wouldn’t have to have gotten Vazquez. But Joba is still an option. Give me a break not, I’m glad we don’t owe Santana that much money for being injured.

    • Dave_Gershman 5 years ago

      Phil Hughes hasn’t had a great season. barely good but nothing special. C.C. I don’t think will win the Cy Young but if we had Johan in the bronx and not Phil I’d be happy with that. Johan has had 3 really good seasons if you take away both septembers where he was injured. People get injured. I have a booboo as we speak.

      • moonraker45 5 years ago

        i hope king felix wins it.. and then gets traded to a better team.

      • “Phil Hughes hasn’t had a great season. Barely good but nothing special.”
        I’m sorry but, what the hell kind of standards are you putting on him? Do you expect him to be King Felix? Do you expect like 200 Ks, with a sub 2 ERA, and pinpoint control with an innings limit burden? Has everyone forgotten his 1st half season, and is only bagging his performance for a subpar second half?? It’s nothing special I agree but, barely good is downplaying his effort. He’s a young pitcher with more to prove yes but, you are downplaying his performance. Oh and I would rather have Phil Hughes cheaper, and is bound to get better. I expect an extension for him from Cashman the way Theo did with Lester and is going to do with Buchholz. And I did always want for the Yanks to fill their positions with internal options/home grown players, and I think we are going to do more of that since Hal has tooken over.

        • Dave_Gershman 5 years ago

          ERA.

          • ?????

            What do you mean?

          • Dave_Gershman 5 years ago

            His ERA isn’t as good as you make his season sound.

          • I just said he’s having a breakout season. Is he not? Other than that i just said he desereves a modest extension. No i wasn’t comparing him to Lester or Buchholz even. And besides. His 2.70 ERA at the ASB is a mark Lester didn’t have in his first full season. Hughes just needs to keep that going in the future.

  12. wakefield4life 5 years ago

    I really don’t think Johan to Boston was ever a possibility. The Twins were asking too much for him, and it really felt at the time that the Sox only offered what they did to either see if they could get Johan on the cheap or to drive up the asking price (of prospects) to make it harder for the yankees to get him.

  13. I agree with comments made about Philadelphia’s scouting but I don’t see how you can trade as much minor league talent and not be hurt. They may have several A league players that had good seasons but typically speaking only one out of three are sucessful at AA and beyond.

    They will pick up draft picks as a result of losing Werth and a few others but unless they draft college players these players probably will not be ready for 4 or 5 years. With the exception of Victorino all of the starters are over 30 and he is 29. Production of these players will eventually start dropping (probably sooner than later). This will result in a rebuilding process or trading of the more successful minor players for replacements.

    I agree their window of opportunity is not and I would have made the same decisions but it will have an effect on them in 2 or 3 years.

  14. I don’t see how the recent injury to Johan should trigger the “best deal they never made” analysis in regards to the Red Sox and Yankees. Even if Johan was healthy, it still would not have been good trades for either team.

    Unlike the Mets, both the Red Sox and Yankees would have surrendered key parts of their current team in exchange for Santana. On the other hand, two of the three players the Mets dealt to the Twins are no longer in the Twins’ system (Phil Humber and Carlos Gomez), and the third (Deolis Guerra) has been horrendous.

    To get the production the Mets have gotten out of Santana has been a huge win considering the peanuts they surrendered, and even despite his current injury, it’s not a trade I’d like to reverse.

    In essence, it was a silly article.

  15. 3locos 5 years ago

    honestly…what kind of baseball fans dont discuss the fact that the brewers havent spoken to grandpa macha about picking up his option after 2 sub 500 years and near complete dismay of the brewers faithful. im just kidding of course, that guy needs a job coaching disc golfers or something hes so mellow he looks high

  16. 3locos 5 years ago

    honestly…what kind of baseball fans dont discuss the fact that the brewers havent spoken to grandpa macha about picking up his option after 2 sub 500 years and near complete dismay of the brewers faithful. im just kidding of course, that guy needs a job coaching disc golfers or something hes so mellow he looks high

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