7:41pm: On Twitter, Kaplan clarifies that "down the road" means trade talks between the two teams have progressed "far beyond" the initial stages. Kevin Goldstein of Baseball Prospectus hears that the Tigers are willing to talk about Turner, but they are far more reticent when it comes to third base prospect Nick Castellanos (Twitter link).
5:52pm: The Cubs and Tigers are “down the road” in talks about a deal that would sent Matt Garza to Detroit for a package of prospects, according to David Kaplan of CSNChicago.com. The Yankees, Red Sox and Blue Jays have also expressed serious interest in Garza, Kaplan writes. However, the Yankees aren’t comfortable with the Cubs’ asking price despite their “tremendous” interest in the right-hander.
The Tigers appear to be willing to meet the Cubs’ asking price of multiple highly-regarded prospects, according to Kaplan. Ken Rosenthal of FOX Sports reported last week that the Tigers could move right-handed pitching prospect Jacob Turner in the right deal.
The Cubs are nearing a deal with free agent left-hander Paul Maholm. Ryan Dempster, Chris Volstad, Travis Wood and Randy Wells could fill the team’s rotation out and make Garza available. He’s under team control through 2013 and figures to earn $9MM or so in 2012 through arbitration.
Not back in the AL! Former Ray pitchers tend to own us. Except Kazmir, we took him apart but so did everyone the last few years.
Dempster
Maholm
Wells
Wood
Volstad
Guess if you’re going to rebuild, you may as well go full-rebuild.
When Zambrano, Doug Davis and Casey Coleman were part of your rotation, that’s actually an upgrade in SPing. If they can get Randy Wells out of the rotation, it’ll be a major upgrade….
You NEVER go full rebuild. Just ask Sean Penn, you remember I Am Sam?
classic post from a very underrated classic movie! Im sure not many people got that at all lol…however i am in favor of a full rebuild tho…it needs to happen and is already looking promising imo
That’s a tear down, not a rebuild. There must be a phenom in next year’s draft, because they are gunning hard for him. But hey, Cub fans are preconditioned for this. 100 loss team? No big deal.
at least it’ll happen because we actually want it to this time haha
“That’s a tear down, not a rebuild. There must be a phenom in next year’s draft, because they are gunning hard for him.”
They’ve got a ways to go if they want to beat out the Astros for the 2013 #1 pick.
If Epstein is able to get two of Jacob Turner, Nick Castenellos and Drew Smyly, I would be beyond ecstatic.
Not even the slightest chance.
How do you know? I bet your wrong
Keep dreaming.
The story reports that the Tigers are apparently willing to meet the Cubs’ demands…so idk about dreaming
If it does happen, it would most likely be Smyly because hopefully Inge is gone after this year and Castellanos will be ready to take his spot
castellanos hasn’t even played in high-A yet
I apologize, my contempt for the poor play of Inge last year has clouded my reasoning with unbridled optimism
Dombrowski is known to overpay with prospects, but that would be a brutal overpay. As a Tigers’ fan, I am a little worried though.
Edit: “known to overpay” is a bit strong. Probably should have said something like “willing to include to prospects.”
They wouldn’t do it for Gio, so why would they do it for Garza?
You know *Hoyer* has full leverage here? He will only take a supreme deal. AKA destroy your farm system. Alright that is a bit of a dream, but Cubs will win this deal no matter what.
Except that Epstein isn’t the GM, so he wins nothing when it comes to trades.
I thought Beane wanted all three, or at least Turner and Castellanos (Smyly is way below those two in value).
I legitimately fear something like Turner + Smyly for Garza.
Keep Smoking that stuff if you think Smyle is way below! Bet Smyle has a better career then Turner!
Garza is far more established and has big game experience, and has better command
I really don’t think they will, but who knows. I’d sure like to see Turner in Detroit for years to come (assuming he pans out…eh?) But Including any two of Turner/Castenellos/Smyly for 2 years of Garza seems crazy after balking at the Gio demands. Maybe it’s Porcello on the block??? I don’t know…
They are different pitchers with much different numbers and experience? Idk, it makes more sense to me. The AL Central doesn’t look like it’s going to be very strong this year, so obtaining Garza would be a great move for the Tigers. Garza is more of a “win now” move than Gio
The term “overpay with prospects” is interesting. How do you overpay with something that you can’t accurately judge the value of? If prospects panned out all the time every GM wouldn’t be willing to trade them away.
Except for the Renteria deal I can’t think of another trade where Dombrowski “over paid.” It seems to me that most of his bad deals have been of the “give-up a little, gain nothing variety,” i.e. Jarrod Washburn. Dombrowski’s true weakness lies in handing out bad extensions, i.e. Dontrelle Willis, Nate Robertson, Jeremy Bonderman, Carlos Guillen, etc.
etc. = Leyland, Lamont, Inge.
I’m not sure I’d be so confident if I were you.
maybe for Castro.
If detriot adds garza then they are just beast! Cleveland might have had a chance before but not anymore
If they get Cespedes too…lookout
I have very mixed feelings about this.
hah, i can’t wait to see the return on this. I’m sure Tigers fans are going to end up being disappointed with what they gave up.
Tigers can’t be giving up what the A’s wanted for Gio, can they? It happened again though, as it always does. GM comes out and says “we wont trade Turner” and you just know he’s in this deal.
I think there will be something around Jacob Turner, Andy Oliver, and Hernan Perez.
Damn. The Cubs rotation is going to suck without Garza. They’ll be like what, a 60-65 win team? I feel bad for Travis Wood, especially if Dempster is going to be their #1.
I wouldn’t trade Jacob Turner for 2 years of Matt Garza.
Agreed. If you believe Turner is even a 3 or a 4, you don’t trade him for two years of Garza.
Lol
Tigers now accepting any and all Minnesota Twins cast-offs!
Garza is a pretty good cast-off.
Ya i bet the twins sure feel good about shipping Garza away… I think throwing in Bartlett was what really got the trade going
delmon young was the cast-off in that trade; garza was the prize the twins gave away … to get the cast-off
Say what you will about Young, but that was a great move by the Tigers. He may not be very good, but for what we traded, we really can’t lose. Say we sign Cespedes or another outfielder who’s better, we could flip DY for something that’s at least half way decent. Even if it’s a bench player or a middle reliever, that’s better than Lester Oliveros.
it definitely wasn’t a great move, but it didn’t hurt them any. he was a replacement-level player for detroit in 2011 who hit well in 5 ALDS games and then poorly in 4 games in the ALCS
it’s pretty unlikely that anyone is going to give the tigers something useful for a ~$6M season of delmon young and oliveros could still pan out if he gets his control in order, but at least for 2011 the DY trade didn’t end as badly as it could have
tigers fans will probably remember him for that one great series instead of the 0-win player he really was
I’ll remember him as being the final piece that the lineup was missing, and the protection he gave to Cabrera and Martinez. Sad that you only saw him in the playoffs, while he was quite injured and STILL a presence. Delmon is still really young, too, and could really blossom. Look at what Cabrera and Martinez did for Alex Avila. Won’t make him any better of an outfielder, but his hitting could take a drastic climb soon.
your optimism is charming, but nothing new. teams have been crossing their fingers with rationalizations just like yours for years now when it comes to DY. never pans out
delmon already had almost 200 PA (his entire reg. season in detroit) hitting with the protection of one of baseball’s best hitters in miguel cabrera. the result? a 101 wRC+ (that’s 1% better than the average MLB hitter)
and his wRC+ over the last 3 full seasons without that protection? exactly 100. so cabrera’s protection gave him a…1% boost
other hitters with 100 wRC+’s over that time:
maicer izturis
rafael furcal
jamey carrol
now if you like that because it comes in the form of an occasional home run binge, more power to you. who am i to judge. but objectively speaking, it’s not impressive for a corner outfielder – especially one so inept defensively making $6M. there’s just not much value there
I don’t like this. No sir, not one bit. Turner…fine, but it’s gonna take more than Turner. I also didn’t like giving up Miller AND Maybin for Miggy, but I guess that worked out…
Well, you were crazy then. Any number of prospects are worth a 24 year old Miguel Cabrera.
Unfortunately a 28 year old Matt Garza is not worth near as much.
You got it all wrong, Tigers are just making sure this man never no hits them again.
If we (Tigers) get Matt Garza…..we compare nicely with the Rangers. Yankees are not even on my radar this year, its the Rangers we have to worry about.
Let’s not get ahead of ourselves. If 2008 taught me anything, it’s that everyone should be on your radar.
You got that right and we’re still awesome. Man with our rotation, can you imagine a Paul Konerko type behind Longo? Rays should be favorite for the East this year unless the Yankees trade for a top end SP.
ugh
There’s no way the Rays are favorite for AL East with their offense (or lack thereof). The Red Sox and Yankees are ALWAYS the favorites. Forget the Sept. collapse. Boston should still be greatly feared, especially if they get some kind of pitching…
If Beckett and Buccholz come back and pitch 190+ innings, it shouldn’t matter too much what their 4-5 guys do especially with that offense.
A 1-3 of Lester, Beckett, and Buccholz is very good.
im not sure the rays are the favorite but their rotation is good enough that i wouldnt dismiss them as you do.
And the Angels are…where?
2nd in the West
I love that nobody is even considering the Red Sox.. This time last year we were heavy favorites and have basically the same team..
Amazing what a few beers and a bucket of chicken will do
Nah people just take the September collapse to mean the Sox suck. But in reality I think they are actually improved already. Same lineup (best in baseball) and their bullpen is suddenly looking strong.
No, it’s amazing what a complete collapse and no sense of team unity will do.
fair points.. im loving having a team this talented on nobodys radar..
there back end of the rotation is much weaker when you subtract the 4.00 era/200 innings they expected from lackey and matsuzaka. lost their dominant closer, traded there ss for a setupman, lost both rf canidates.
I’m hoping for something along the lines of Turner, Crosby/Oliver, Fields gets it done…
Exactly. Just not JT and Castellanos. I’m fine with one of them, plus Oliver and another lower level guy.
As long as it’s not Turner AND Castellanos… I guess I’m on board. Although I don’t really like trading Turner for another SP. I think he’ll be better than Garza in a few years. It’d really show a “win now” attitude from DD and Illitch
Being a Tigers and SF giants fan I have a bad feeling about this. Its similar to the same feeling I had right before Sabean decided to trade his best prospect in Wheeler for two months of Beltran.
Its gonna be Turner or Castellanos plus. I’ll guess:
Detroit gets: Matt Garza, Marlon Byrd
Cubs get: Turner, Casey Crosby, Brenny Paulino and Eugeni Velez.
Why would we want Marlon Byrd?
Marlon byrd is worth nothing to us
Marlon Byrd is nearly useless to the Tigers. If they agreed to take his $6.5M contract off of the Cubs’ hands they should then expect to sent FEWER players back to the Cubs not more.
Byrd? Explain yourself.
could be worse.Could be Soriano…puke in mouth
Stunned the Yankees are willing to bet that their top pitching prospects are all sure things. The chances that all of them turn into something equal to Garza is silm. I wouldn’t deal Montero for him as he’s part of the lineup as designed and they need RH power. That said, acting like their top pitching prospects are all as good as middle rotation starters or better is just ludicrous. No team has that kind of luck.
Verlander
Fister
Max.s
Garza
Porcello
This would be a great rotation for us
Verlander
Garza
Fister
Scherzer
Porcello
Fixed it for ya.
Verlander
Garza
Fister
Scherzer
Porcello
Fixed it for ya.
Garza’s definitely your #2. then Scherzer, Fister, Porcello.
Your just a Cub fan lol, you dont know what Fister did with the Tigers.
No he’s really not. Fister proved in a Tigers uniform he’ll be the #2 starter. Have you watched Fister at all?
That’s what I thought.
I’m a Tigers fan and have seen Fister throw quite a bit. That said, we are sure to see some regression from what we got out of him down the stretch last year.
As EightMileCats said I think its a 2a and 2b situation, but I’d slot Garza into the #2 spot. The really amazing thing would be having Max as the #4 on the staff. That’s pretty solid.
I think it’s more like:
1 Verlander
2a Garza
2b Fister
4Scherzer
5 Porcello
Is there a special reason as to why Dave Dombrowski wants to help out Theo Epstein here? The Tigers won the division by 15 games! They won 95 games and that was with Brad Penny in the rotation for most of the year. Why in the world is Dombrowski sweating bullets here? The rest of the division is either retooling or still building up to being a contender. The Tigers have a good team, they have a good rotation. It would be shear folly to give up Jacob Turner for Garza. The real reason the Tigers lost the series to the Rangers wasn’t pitching. It was because of
A.) goofy weather
B.) Delmon Young’s oblique strain. He was smoking the ball all playoffs and probable would have been the Cody Ross of 2011 except for that pesky injury.
PS I guess Old Man Selig is going to bury his nose in busy work and not question the Rizzo trade? Way to go Selig! Stand Up Guy! Woooooo! When will you get a “Bust” in the Hall of Fame? The caption underneath could read “Strength and Honor”.
did theo sleep with your girlfriend or something?
What was wrong with the Rizzo trade?
that trade screamed “collusion.”
come on, dude.
come on, dude.
it’s not collusion if theo used his jedi mind trick on byrnes
Because winning your division only gets you into the playoffs, not in the same league as the big three from the AL East or even the Angels. The Tigers need another strong SP. Garza could be the man to take them into the upper echelon of the AL.
ROFL not in the same league as the 3 from the AL East? I am sorry didnt we beat the yankees in the playoffs? No AL east team made the alcs last year. Get over your division.
Haha, my division is the NL Central (I know, nothing to write home about). All I meant was that winning your own division only does one thing: It guarantees you will make the playoffs. After that, you have to match up against teams that are, by definition, much better than the teams you beat in order to win your division in the first place.
Over the course of a seven game series, even Roy Halladay can be beaten twice. That’s why we play the games instead of just handing the trophy to the team with the best roster.
Ahhhh the NL Central produced the NL W.C. team, and the W.S. champion.
Yes, but after the Cards and Brewers, it was a p1ss-poor division. After the losses of personnel this off-season, it is an even weaker division. The Brewers will be lucky to hit the .500 mark, the Cards are a rudderless, albeit somewhat talented team and the Reds look to run away with the division. He77, the Pirates could easily surprise us all and fight for the wild card or division. They are much improved over last year.
hes right, the tigers play the majority of their games in a division with all sub .500 teams, the A.L. East only had 1 weak team
Get back on CCS
Quit being a postwhore son.
LMAO troll…
Texas was the better team. A rotation of Verlander, Garza, Fister, Scherzer, and Porcello would be damn good, and help take the team to the next level.
Please dont do this DD…
If it’s anything less than Turner and Castellanos, I really don’t see the Cubs pulling that trigger. There’s gotta be a better package out there on the market, and they’d be foolish to succumb to simply one elite prospect when they’re the ones with all the leverage in the world.
and if it is that, I don’t want to see the Tigers do it.
Right now, I don’t think there’s anything better out there. Come trade deadline, that changes. Someone will get desperate then. For now, teams just don’t value Garza that highly.
That being said, if you wait to the trade deadline, you can run the risk of Garza underperforming or getting injured (no history or hint that he will, but it is a risk). If either happens, you get even less.
Exactly, with waiting to mid season the Cubs run the risk of getting nothing in return for a hurt Garza. That would be a HUGE setback for the rebuilding process. If your able to get an A- prospect in Turner plus a B and a C+ with potential the Cubs should take it. A package of of Turner, Smyly and Fields should do it.
There’s the flip side, where Garza dominates, and ups his trade value, like the midseason always does.
If the best offer the Tigers can do is Turner, without adding Castellanos, I wouldn’t blame the Cubs for passing. A better offer WILL come, especially if teams learn the Tigers aren’t in on it anymore.
I say this as a fan of neither team. I wouldn’t pull the trigger if I were the Tigers, but I can definitely see the Cubs trying to bleed out every drop they can muster.
To everyone out there saying that “The Cubs have all the leverage;” your statement assumes a fact that is not in evidence. The Cubs only have leverage if other teams value Garza as highly or more highly than the Cubs do. It’s a fair bet that the the aforementioned state obtains in relation to some teams, but why is everyone so sure that the Tigers are one of those teams?
No… they have all the leverage because they don’t HAVE to trade Garza. If a team doesn’t make an offer they want, they simply walk away. The other teams have nothing to hold over the heads of Theo/Jed.
The Tigers don’t have to trade for Garza either. They have a good rotation and are huge favorites in their division even without him.
So it only makes sense to do it if the price is right.
clear it all out baby. next up, sign woody & cespedes.
Would rather have Soler…
to be honest, i don’t know why they don’t just sign both. what else are they spending on??
Because winning your division only gets you into the playoffs, not in the same league as the big three from the AL East or even the Angels. The Tigers need another strong SP. Garza could be the man to take them into the upper echelon of the AL.
Yea, idk why you mention the Angels and not the Rangers. Either way, the Tigers already are a top 5 AL team.
I’ve yet to see any Tigers beat writer link the Tigers/Cubs together in a possible deal. I’m not buying it either. Dombrowski JUST stated Turner isn’t getting traded (he of course could be a liar on that point) However, Garza isn’t close to being good enough to deserve 2 premium prospects. I wouldn’t even trade Turner straight up for him.
Keep Turner and go sign Cepedes.
DD didn’t say that he wouldn’t trade Jacob Turner, he said that they aren’t shopping him. That doesn’t mean they won’t trade him, it means they would trade him if the right deal came along.
DD didn’t say that he wouldn’t trade Jacob Turner, he said that they aren’t shopping him. That doesn’t mean they won’t trade him, it means they would trade him if the right deal came along.
Somehow, I vaguely remember something about not trading Granderson…
Or just totally ignore my explanation.
I’m glad they traded Granderson and was happy back in 09. Garza is overrated. Cubs traded to much for him and now some Cubs writer is somehow the ONLY person with this ‘inside source. Sorry, not buying it
I’m glad they traded Granderson too.
DD never said Turner wasn’t being traded, he said he wasn’t being shopped and they weren’t actively trying to move him. He said in the same interview that he was willing to listen to trades involving him, just that there was no need for them to trade him unless they got a great deal.
Give me Turner and Castellanos
I wouldn’t do it…
Turner and some other non Castellanos I’d do
Ya I like Oliver and Crosby too, but a Cubs fan can dream, can’t he?? haha
Notice how every single Cubs fan on here seems to be for a Turner + Castellanos for Garza trade, and no Tigers fans are?
Gives you an idea for how balanced that trade idea is.
See thats the thing. We have all kinds of pitching. but you start talking about giving up what seems to be the future at third and opinions vary…Im ok with Turner I guess..but we dont get position prospects often. Keep em if u can, unless we can trade him for Wright or Longoria.
You can keep Castellanos if we can have Turner, Smyly, Crosby and Danry Vasquez but that is almost certainly too much.
K u can have that if we can take castro and barney with garza. Thats how I see this being even.
Ignorance is bliss I suppose. I clearly stated that would be too much. You couldn’t trade your entire top ten for Castro and Garza. You can have Barney for free.
You can keep Castellanos if we can have Turner, Smyly, Crosby and Danry Vasquez but that is almost certainly too much.
I’m for a Garza for Delmon Young swap as would every single other Tiger fan, and no Cub fans would be.
Gives you an idea for how balanced that trade idea is.
That’s exactly my point.
On a more serious note, the reason it does’t make much sense for Detroit is because Castellanos is our only hope at the moment for an impact bat from our farm system. Since our rotation isn’t exactly a huge issue, it wouldn’t make sense to include Castellanos in the deal. Verlander, Fister, Scherzer, Porcello + veteran 5th starter is good enough, Garza isn’t a big enough need to where you would part with both Turner and Castellanos.
What did people think “down the road” meant?
I couldn’t tell if it meant far away or if it meant they have progressed on their travels.
Oh, I just thought since it said “would send Matt Garza to Detroit for a package of prospects” in meant they were pretty close. Gotcha.
I’m starting to get the feeling that this could get done before the night is through.
Verlander, Fister, Garza , Scherzer, and Porcello sure looks like a strong rotation.
Turner is the PERFECT centerpiece Theo should be looking for!
What if the Tigers hold those prospects and try to deal for Felix Hernandez at the deadline?
We don’t have the prospects to deal for Felix. If he were actually available, our package would get topped in a heartbeat.
That’s true. I’m actually surprised that Toronto hasn’t made a major deal for pitching by this point. There always seems to be one team that misses out on the musical chairs every off season. Last year it seemed to be the Angels.
King Felix becomes available you would see offers off the chart. Thats when the big boys join in. Even in their less than competitive state, no way I trade him unless you think he wants out but still you cant top his talent.
He would have to be available. At this point I think most GMs have a strong feeling that Felix either will or will not be had anytime soon. If a team feels like the M’s will not budge then why hold on to those prospects in the desperate hope that he is made available?
True. I just think getting in a bidding war with other clubs for Matt Garza at this point is questionable.
There’s also the chance that Jacob Turner busts out and becomes that missing piece himself.
The mariners should trade Felix. They arent going anywhere and when he is a free agent he is going to leave. They could probably get a haul similar to the dan haren trade a few years back
I find it a bit funny no one is mentioning that they are trading for a pitcher that threw a no hitter against them. (Or they have and I’m not reading all 190 comments). I don’t think that him moving to the AL Central is such a good idea though. He has really bad numbers against those teams. Including the Tigers, he has given up 88 runs over 178.2 innings, giving him a career 4.45 ERA , going 5 for 18 against them.
If you are worried about bringing him in to face today’s Twins, Indians, White Sox, and Royals, then Garza shouldn’t even be in the majors…
If he’s traded to the Tigers he’s not going to have to face them in the first place anyway.
Of the highly-touted prospects Dombrowski has traded away over the years, how many have been above average players in the bigs?
Jair Jurrjens? But was he highly touted? I believe Miller was regarded higher when the Renteria trade happened.
Cody Ross turned into a nice player, but I don’t think he was highly touted.
Can’t really think of anyone else off the top of my head.
Was Coco Cordero highly touted?
For that matter, how many highly-touted prospects for any organization have panned out? It’s under 20% I’m sure. Then there are guys who seem mediocre in the minors and get called up and just figure it out. It’s part of the fun of baseball.
Sizemore was pretty hyped, and he was a 1.9 WAR last year. By no means a star, but by definition above average. Still, his -.2 WAR with Detroit had us about fed up.
JJ was the one that really hurt though.
Actually, a 1.9 WAR isn’t above “average” by definition, it’s above a hypothetical “replacement level” (which ain’t the same thing) by definition. A WAR of 1.9 is just about the average of a full-time position player.
Depending on the package, I like the looks of this. The Tigers are VERY close, and I’m not talking about winning the central, I’m talking about how they stack up to the elite-playoff bound teams. Garza is the kind of rotation-solidifying vet that could take the team to another level right now… Turner has tons of promise but by the time he’s ready to fulfill that promise the core (JV, Cabby, Victor, etc) could be gone in FA. With the other 4 guys they have locked down long term, there’s no sense drawing a line in the sand on Turner.
Also cracks me up to see so many Tigers fans acting like Garza is a lightweight and Fister is a sure #2. Anyone remember Max in 2010 down the stretch and how everyone swore he was the future ace? Was he able to duplicate that dominance? No. Yet here we all sit, expecting Fister to be Felix all next season.
Just like I said all last off season when everyone was raving about how solid a Jv-Max-Porcello top of the rotation would be: banking on young guys to maintain career numbers from a hot stretch as the backbone of your rotation is not enough for contenders. The Tigers need another high end pitcher, not some scrub to fill the bottom slot while they cross their fingers and hope Max and Porcello finally turn the corner we’ve all been waiting for.
Doug Wilson of Idaho?
Of Agrestic, California via showtime…
Garza had a 3.32 ERA last year and has more losses than wins career. How is he supposed to help? Hes an average pitcher at best
Judging a pitcher on wins and losses is the smart way to go. Keep up the brilliant posts.
Im not judging him off his wins smartass. But he has not improved at all for the past 5 years, he would be a 3.8 ERA guy, which isn’t that great. He played on good Rays teams who had good offenses and couldnt win, it wouldnt change at all, like his past 5 years. The Tigers would be getting an average pitcher for one of the best prospects in baseball plus other guys
Its a win-win for both teams, once they get the package right. Detroit simply can’t hang with the Angels/Rangers with just Verlander. Garza not only gives them a high quality second starter, it takes a lot of pressure off Verlander which, as scary as it might seem, will make him even better. The Cubs win by getting Turner, Smyly, and another prospect or two, they’ll be set for years to come once those guys are major league ready.