Heyman On Halladay, Francoeur, Brewers

"The Yankees tried to trade for Jeff Francoeur last offseason."

Wow, I wonder why. Even though he hadn't started sucking yet, it's not like the Yankees didn't have plenty of outfielders. There was even talk of trying to get rid of one.

Oh, should mention, his career BAbip is .300, that isnt adjusted. The other lines are adjusted to match that career total, which happens to be the normal league average as well.

the Dodgers should just pony up Chad Billingsley, Andrew Lambo, Ivan DeJesus and a mid-tier relief prospect and win the West

The dodgers have no shot at beating the Phils because they still have Broxton and we still have Matt Stairs.

Dodger fans are so dumb, seriously. The Phillies prospects blow the Dodgers' out of the water, but every single Halladay post, you see dumb Dodger fans suggesting their garbage prospects, and think it's going to get it done.

The only chance the Dodgers have is to include Kershaw, but I think it's pretty pointless and dumb for the Dodgers to give up Kershaw.

The Phillies prospects don't blow the Dodgers prospects out of the water - it's just that LA's top guys are lower level and are riskier bets. So in that sense, Philly is less of a dice roll.

I could see LA getting Halladay for just prospects, but it's gonna take like 6 of the best 10. Realistically, I don't think the Dodgers would deal Bills or Kershaw, so if they are truly interested that to me screams position player. This is where Torre's disdain for Kemp scares me.

"Kershaw, Billingsley, Kemp, and Ethier aren't going anywhere. Guarantee it."

Why do people feel the need to talk like they are GMs on here.

And that is fine those 4 are untouchable. I am sure something could get worked out for Russell Martin and James Loney in the package.

"Kershaw, Billingsley, Kemp, and Ethier aren't going anywhere. Guarantee it."

Why do people feel the need to talk like they are GMs on here.

And that is fine those 4 are untouchable. I am sure something could get worked out for Russell Martin and James Loney in the package.

Posted by: BucSox | July 17, 2009 at 01:41 PM

---

Who says we aren't GMs?

also. I would hate to give up Loney but I wouldn't mind it for Doc Halladay, and the way Martin is playing this year and the fact that he is a 2 time all-star and his salary is going to continue to balloon makes me think Toronto won't take him. Not to mention, who catches for the Dodgers?

"Kershaw, Billingsley, Kemp, and Ethier aren't going anywhere. Guarantee it. "

Also who are you to make blanket value judgements? Do you work for Dodgers front office? No. So don't try to pass off your biased opinion as fact.

"Second, I wouldnt be so sure on Ethier, as well as possibly Loney being moved in the right deal."

Yeah, I was thinking that Ethier doesn't really belong in the same place as Billingsley, Kemp and Kershaw.

Those three can become elite players in this game, while Ethier is likely awfully close to reaching his ceiling.

Ethier is a bad defensive right fielder that makes up for it as a hitter, but not to the point that he's particularly good. His BABIP has plummeted this year, but that's clearly a function of his line drive rate, which has plummeted from 26.6% in 2008 to 18.3% in 2009.

Kemp has continued to develop his approach at the plate and his walk rate and the number of pitches he's seeing has increased in each year that he's been in LA. He's an excellent defensive center fielder with crazy athleticism, and he's beginning to get a handle of his massive tools, at which point he'll become one of the best players in the game.

Ethier should be very available in Halladay talks, but Kemp should be totally off-limits. Kemp's 4.1 WAR this season is already easily better than the 3.4 WAR that Ethier posted during his breakout 2008. Kemp is really, really, really good.

The Phillies prospects don't blow the Dodgers prospects out of the water - it's just that LA's top guys are lower level and are riskier bets. So in that sense, Philly is less of a dice roll.

Posted by: oshea2002 | July 17, 2009 at 01:35 PM

but the Phils have those same or similar type prospects in the lower levels too. I was at the Low A game in Lakewood last night and saw Anthony Gose steal his 50th base this year so far. There have been times I've seen him almost beat out routine ground balls.

Add in if Hewitt, Collier (had a solid game)D'arnaud et continue to come around and you'll see that the Phils system is top to bottom stacked with talent.

Joel Sherman was talking about it on XM radio just a bit ago and he's right on with it.

The only thing the Phils system is lacking is true infield depth. OTher than that there are almost no weaknesses.

Dodgers are just getting involved to try to drive up the price for the Phillies. They don't have the guys to beat them, but they can certainly make them sweat.

"The Yankees tried to trade for Jeff Francoeur last offseason."

Wow, I wonder why. Even though he hadn't started sucking yet, it's not like the Yankees didn't have plenty of outfielders. There was even talk of trying to get rid of one.

Posted by: Little Bear | July 17, 2009 at 01:05 PM

Probably BEFORE they picked up Swisher.

Granted the Phillies have the more appealing prospects, but the prospects that the Phillies are supposedly willing to give up are not far and away superior to the ones that the Dodgers could offer up. And in my honest opinion, the only Dodger regular that would fit into what the Jays are looking for is Russell Martin. Ethier doesn't make sense due to the Jays OF depth/logjam. But all things being equal, a Dodger offer, realistically, cannot match up to the Phils. The Dodgers may end up w/ Cliff Lee, but more realistically, it'll be Pavano or Washburn.

the Dodgers should just pony up Chad Billingsley, Andrew Lambo, Ivan DeJesus and a mid-tier relief prospect and win the West

Posted by: 04Forever | July 17, 2009 at 01:27 PM

Yeah, losing our best pitcher plus valuable prospects is definitely a win when trading for someone 8 years older, albeit one of the best pitchers in baseball.

Seriously dumb idea. No offense dude, but seriously, stick to your sox.

"I don't see why the Dodgers have no shot at Halladay without including one of Bills, Kershaw, Kemp, or Ethier. What everyone fails to understand is any of these four players are MUCH better than anyone another team would offer. They are all cost-controlled talented young players who can really make a difference right away on any team they go to."

They also all, with the exception of Kersh, have considerably shorter amount of control time to them. 2 years of Ethier at a couple million a pop is not necessarily more valuable then 6 years of Taylor or Brown at 3-3.5 years of nothing cost and eventually 3 years of a couple million a pop.

"It won't beat the Phillies offer, but it can sure come close depending on who they include. Lindblom, Elbert, and Ethan Martin are pretty good pitching prospects. A package of one young ML player, and 3 decent prospects may get the job done and not kill their farm system."

That is extremely logical though, and why everyone keeps saying that the Dodgers almost have to include someone off the ML roster to get it done. If they dont, they come away with almost no prospects left in their system, something a team is probably unwilling to do.

Anyone heard the rumor that the SF Giants may be in the running by offering Jonathan Sanchez and other young pitchers, PLUS they are interested in Alex Rios because they need a better hitting OF? Does this kind of biddding to increase the size of the deal scare off a lot of teams?

If Rios were to be involved in a Halladay trade with the Giants, the trade would rocket up to a monster of a trade.

I'm guessing Bumgarner will be the main piece, and Villalona would probably have to be involved as well. The ones that can't be traded in the Giants minds are probly Alderson and Posey, because Posey could be their starter at catcher next year and I couldn't see them trading both Bumgarner and Alderson in one fell swoop.

The Jays would probably salavate at the idea of trading both Halladay and Rios to the Giants. I doubt it happens though.

Ivdown has an interesting idea... considering the Giants are in the wild card seat as it stands now...

Dodgers don't have the minor league pieces . period. I mean that is what Heyman is saying hence the "major league" requirements that must be made for any deal.
Dodger fans just deal with it.
Anyways I am more convinced all these teams are in it to drive the price up on the Phills who need to make this move.
J.A Happ is a marginal piece.
I nearly drove off the road yesterday when I heard one of the XM guys say the Phils could package Haap and Donald as the center pieces... totally not happening.
Haap is the NL version of Scott Richmond. End of story.

Drabek, brown or Taylor, Knapp, Donald or Marson that's is my best guess about what will eventually happen.

Another good point made on XM is the longer this thing plays out the more desperate teams like the Angels might get... Deal Santana or Weaver, Wood and Jarrod what's his face...
On the surface the Angels aren't exactly a young team at the core... they NEED and ace bad as Lacky will walk or charge a huge amount next year.

How in the world could the Giants afford to take on Halladay and Rios money wise? It won't happen, and to get Toronto to pick up the tab, will have to give away the guys they won't trade.

cortez,

haha. Happ and Donald are absolutely not centerpieces you're right. Happ will come back to earth although not quite as far as some might think, IMO.

I don't know that i would do Drabek, Happ AND Knapp. as the pitching centerpiece. That to me would be too much.

I'd also prefer to replace Knapp (injured anyways!) with Savery or a Carpenter. As well I'd give Brown, not Taylor as Taylor seems to project more power and we'll need that in 3 years once Ryan Howard goes bye bye!

ivdown
you just dropped a "seriously dumb idea" on someone else
then you toss Rios into the deal and say that increases the price for the Giants?!?
dude, Rios not only is Rios a mess that needs fixing, needs a Rudy Jaramillo-type makeover, he's got a ridonkulous contract

the Jay SF should go after right now?
Scott Rolen

Posted by: crash | July 17, 2009 at 02:57 PM

You are really an idiot if you think Rios would just be a salary dump or anything of that nature. With Rios' offense and defense he has been one of the most valuable outfielders in baseball over the last 3 seasons. Look it up. The price most definitely would and should go up if Rios were involved in a Halladay trade.

Seriously dude, get a clue.

Toronto is likely to place a much higher value on pitching prospects and ML-ready pitchers than position players (SS excluded). And they definitely don't need outfielders--unless they find a way to unload Wells' or Rios' contract.

That's why the Phillies seem to be in the catbird seat. They can offer 3-4 pitchers plus a guy like Donald. LA would have to serve up someone from their rotation before the talks could even get off the ground.

how does this sound for toronto

James loney
mcdoneld
dejeus
martin {not russel}

couple more prospects and it would be a pretty good deal

Lol. crash is proven incorrect so he attempts to call people names and make even bigger idiotic trade ideas? I guess that is the young peoples mentality these days though.

If I'm JP, I'm looking to trade Wells (not gonna happen) or Rios to free up some money to be able to afford to keep Halladay after his contract runs out. Sadly for them, Halladay wants to win, and they probably can't free up the payroll or provide a team to compete with the Yanks, Sox, or Rays by the time Doc is a Free Agent.

So what the Jays should do now, is get what they can for Halladay with his value maxed, and since they are going into rebuilding mode by doing this, they should try to clear even more salary by trading another expensive player, Rios. This is definitely not to say Rios isn't worth his contract or he isn't very good because they do want to trade him, it means they are rebuilding, so why pay all that money just to watch them lose reguardless?

So what they do is package Hallday and Rios together (if any team can do that, same goes with rolen as well if anyone would be willing) and get more or better prospects in a deal.

"ivdown
you just dropped a "seriously dumb idea" on someone else
then you toss Rios into the deal and say that increases the price for the Giants?!?
dude, Rios not only is Rios a mess that needs fixing, needs a Rudy Jaramillo-type makeover, he's got a ridonkulous contract

the Jay SF should go after right now?
Scott Rolen
"

Alex Rios has been worth 55 million in the last 3 years. So how exactly is his 5/60 deal a salary dump, even while having a down year right now?

'the Dodgers should just pony up Chad Billingsley, Andrew Lambo, Ivan DeJesus and a mid-tier relief prospect and win the West'

at that point, the phone is hung up and Colletti wets himself while laughing...

'They're going to ask for Matt Kemp or Clayton Kershaw, probably, but honestly I wouldn't deal either of those guys for Halladay. They're already practically star quality players on their own.
An offer would probably have to be based around Ethan Martin, Josh Lindblom, Devaris Gordon, Josh Bell and another player or two, someone like Lambo, McDonald or DeWitt.'

In the Doc Rumors for today, it says Kershaw is off limits, and Kemp is already a top 5 CF. They wont be traded. But I agree with your proposal that that deal could start it, espically with the Jays liking Bell.

'Dodger fans are so dumb, seriously. The Phillies prospects blow the Dodgers' out of the water, but every single Halladay post, you see dumb Dodger fans suggesting their garbage prospects, and think it's going to get it done.
The only chance the Dodgers have is to include Kershaw, but I think it's pretty pointless and dumb for the Dodgers to give up Kershaw.
Posted by: juiced | July 17, 2009 at 01:31 PM'

The phils best vs the Dodgers best right now, yes you win. However, the Phils arent offering the best prospects, and the Dodgers are. The difference is where they are. Yours are in AAA, ours are in AA. the prospects your offering vs ours, yours are closer, but ours may be better in the long run. Its take your pick, more risk, more reward. Or play it safe.

'"Kershaw, Billingsley, Kemp, and Ethier aren't going anywhere. Guarantee it."
Why do people feel the need to talk like they are GMs on here.
And that is fine those 4 are untouchable. I am sure something could get worked out for Russell Martin and James Loney in the package.
Posted by: BucSox | July 17, 2009 at 01:41 PM'

Those guys arent going anywhere, except maybe Ethier, because they are established MLB players, and very good ones. Also, why would the Jays want Russell, and why would we trade him? The Jays have a top prospect in AAA thats a catcher, and who plays catcher for us with Russell gone?

'From a Jays perspective I think the biggest obstacle for a Dodgers trade is that their trading chips seem further away in terms of development. Is that assessment correct? As someone else noted, the Phillies prospects seem much closer & I think that is an important factor. Jays brass have been said to favour 'near ready' prospects & they're probably right in doing so.
I think the Dodgers have to send someone from the roster to Toronto.'

Absolutley about the prospects. LIke I said, ours are further away, theirs are closer. But ours may be better, take your pick...

'sorry but Drabek is better than Lindblom and Elbert IMO and he's much younger than Elbert and both seemed to have (just looking at stats) struggled in AAA.
Drabek hasn't really struggled anywhere he's gone and if he didn't have TJ surgery he'd likely already be in AAA knocking on the door.

Ethan Martin also (statistics wise) doesn't look as good as Knapp.
Sorry if I was the Jays and was offered:
Happ, Drabek, Knapp
or
Lindblom or Elbert, Martin and James McDonald

I'd absolutely take the phils deal. then again i'm biased'

Drabek may be better, but I bet the Phils wont offer him. The Dodgers seem OK with giving up Lindblom and Elbert.

With Martin, he had a knee injury last yr, and is coming back, so he has struggled a little. Many scouts feel he is a #1 or a very good #2... I dont know what Knapp projects too, though.

The Jays wouldnt take either of those deals, because it is only 3 guys. Your deal is stronger, but we have the supporting prospects to go with the pitchers and we are offering almost all of them, unlike the Phils...

The Dodgers young players are all overrated. Joe Torre and the veterans sprinkled in the lineup are the reason there winning.

When Manny got suspended for roids McCourt should easily be able to afford Halladay. They also got a couple bad contracts coming off the books next year. When your givin Manny 25 million a year you got to win now.'

Are you serious? Please tell me your kidding. The Dodgers have one of the best homegrown core in baseball. The Rays are the only team that has a similar amount of homegrown guys on their roster during this yr. I did a count a few weeks ago, and the Dodgers have used 23 guys who are from their farm, and that doesnt include Ethier, who was traded for just before his rokkie yr.

I love Joe Torre from his days with the Yanks. However, the only thing he is helping with is giving guys a day off, taking media pressure off Martin and Furcal during struggles, and holding Kemp back. Kemp has been in the 8 hole, even though he has been our most productive player all yr. The vets that play everyday; Hudson, Furcal, Blake, and Manny, have all gone through slumps/suspensions. It has been the play of Kemp, Loney, and Ethier that has kept us afloat, and of course the pitching.

The Dodgers only get 2.7M from the suspension this yr, because of defferment. That will help with a reliever, but not Halladay.

melonis, exactly. But he likes power in the 8 hole(it is very annoying to waste his speed