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Free Agent Rumors: Moustakas, Cahill, Mets, Dodgers, Hirano, Indians, Twins

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Like most free agents, Mike Moustakas has been met with an unexpectedly slow market this offseason, writes ESPN’s Buster Olney. Zack Cozart’s willingness to move from shortstop to third base and the potential presence of names like Manny Machado, Evan Longoria and Josh Donaldson on the trade market have all complicated matters for Moustakas, who entered the winter as the consensus top third baseman available in free agency. Olney writes that some MLB evaluators have questioned how well Moustakas’ body will hold up into his 30s, which represents another potential stalling point in his market. Olney speculates about the possibility of Moustakas ultimately settling for a one-year deal and reentering free agency next winter, noting that the Orioles, Yankees and Cardinals would all represent very logical landing spots on a short-term pact. Of course, it remains to be seen whether he’d be amenable to such an arrangement; the majority of top position players remain unsigned, after all, and agent Scott Boras has a history of lengthy trips through free agency for some of his clients.

Some more notes on the free-agent market…

  • Olney also reports that the Giants are among the clubs considering righty Trevor Cahill for a rotation spot (Twitter link). Cahill, 30 in March, was terrific early in the year before a shoulder injury torpedoed his season. Through his first 41 1/3 innings with the Padres, Cahill logged a 3.27 ERA with 11.1 K/9, 3.7 BB/9, 0.65 HR/9 and a 60.2 percent ground-ball rate. Upon returning from that injury, however, he was rocked for a 6.54 ERA In 42 2/3 frames between the Padres and Royals. Cahill’s newfound ability to miss bats completely evaporated after being activated from the DL (7.6 K/9), and he was unable to find the strike zone with any consistency (5.9 BB/9).
  • The Mets have indeed “reached out” to Adrian Gonzalez, tweets Olney. (Olney and others had previously suggested the Mets were likely to explore the possibility.) New York’s level of interest isn’t known, but they have a considerably more intriguing option in-house in the form of Dominic Smith, and the market bears a number of considerably more appealing veterans (all of whom, albeit, are more expensive). The 35-year-old Gonzalez could be had for just the league minimum, as the Braves are on the hook for the remainder of his salary, but he’s coming off a season that was ruined by back injuries and saw him post an unsightly .242/.287/.355 slash line in 252 plate appearances.
  • The Dodgers have some interest in Japanes closer Yoshihisa Hirano, Tim Brown of Yahoo Sports tweeted recently. The 33-year-old Hirano has starred for NPB’s Orix Buffaloes for quite some time, amassing 143 saves with a 2.62 ERA, 9.4 K/9 and 2.4 BB/9 through 271 1/3 innings from 2013-17. Hirano, who will turn 34 next spring, has enough professional experience that he’s exempt from the posting system and is able to sign a Major League deal without going through the posting system. He’s also been linked to the Cardinals and Tigers this winter.
  • ESPN’s Jerry Crasnick reports that the Indians aren’t operating under the same capacity that they did last offseason when they surprised everyone by signing Edwin Encarnacion (Twitter links). Cleveland is looking at lower-profile first base options to replace Carlos Santana, with Crasnick listing the likes of Lucas Duda, Matt Adams, Logan Morrison and Yonder Alonso as possibilities rather than Eric Hosmer. (Speculatively, I’d imagine that even Morrison and Alonso could be beyond Cleveland’s comfort zone.) Dealing Jason Kipnis and the remaining $30.5MM on his contract (2018-19) would open up some additional funds for the team to reallocate to a first baseman or additional bullpen help, Crasnick notes.
  • Darren Wolfson of 1500 ESPN touched on a number of Twins-related issues in his most recent podcast (audio link, Twins talk beginning at the 3:30 mark). Minnesota was in on Drew Smyly until the end, per Wolfson, before Smyly chose to sign with the Cubs. Minnesota gave an identical two-year, $10MM guarantee to Michael Pineda instead, and they have some interest in working out a two-year agreement with injured reliever Trevor Rosenthal as well. Minnesota has shown no inclination to spent upwards of $9MM on multi-year deals for relievers and doesn’t love the idea of going to six years on Yu Darvish, though the team does maintain strong interest in the righty. Wolfson notes that the trade market could be an avenue for improving the ’pen and/or rotation.

Market Notes: Red Sox, Hosmer, Royals, Cards, Donaldson, Mets, Kipnis, A-Gon

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Signing Mitch Moreland doesn’t take the Red Sox out of the market for hitting, president of baseball ops Dave Dombrowski told reporters including Nick Cafardo of the Boston Globe. And adding another stick wouldn’t necessarily mean trading away from the current roster to create space, the club’s top baseball decisionmaker added. But it surely does not seem that Boston will sign another first baseman; rather, a DH/corner outfield bat seems the likeliest possibility.

  • Boston’s decision seems to take it out of the market for Eric Hosmer, which has raised some eyebrows in Royals country. As Sam Mellinger of the Kansas City Star writes, there are still many barriers remaining to a return to Kansas City for Hosmer, including the possibility that agent Scott Boras will find a way to bring some new suitors into the picture. But keeping Hosmer in Royals blue for the future now seems more plausible than might have been expected when the organization began giving indication it would rebuild. Of course, even if that comes to pass, the general rebuilding plan will remain, the Star’s Rustin Dodd notes on Twitter.
  • The Cardinals appear to be showing more interest in veteran Blue Jays third baseman Josh Donaldson than in Manny Machado of the Orioles, according to Bob Nightengale of USA Today (via Twitter). Nightengale posits that the club may believe it’s better situated to pursue a long-term deal with Donaldson — who’s much older than Machado, though both will hit the open market at the same time — which would increase his appeal. Of course, it’s important to bear in mind there’s still no real indication that Toronto will move Donaldson and the St. Louis front office has suggested recently that it’s not all that keen on giving up significant assets for a rental.
  • While there has been some chatter recently connecting the Mets to Indians second baseman Jason Kipnis, Ken Davidoff of the New York Post says that possibility is not as likely as it has come to seem. Especially with Carlos Santana moving on, says Davidoff, the Indians are not particularly inclined to part with Kipnis’s contract for a marginal return. New York is trying to thread the needle in finding an upgrade at the position, with the organization concerned with giving up too much in salary or prospect value to make a deal. As the Post’s Joel Sherman writes, the Mets’ lack of top-end, marketable pre-MLB talent has posed an under-appreciated barrier to its winter activity.
  • The Mets, of course, are also eyeing the addition of another option at the first base position. New York had some interest in Moreland, per the above-cited Cafardo piece. And as James Wagner of the New York Times tweets, the Mets intend at least to take a look at the newest entrant onto the open market: Adrian Gonzalez. The veteran will be looking to bounce back after a rough, injury-plagued 2017 season, though he could conceivably bring some upside at a very appealing price.

AL Notes: Darvish, Mariners, Schoop, Kinsler

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The Twins “seem determined” to sign one of the top starters on the free-agent market and are showing increased optimism about their chances of landing right-hander Yu Darvish, reports La Velle E. Neal III of the Minneapolis Star-Tribune. Minnesota thinks that Darvish’s relationship with GM Thad Levine and their emerging young core of position players will work in their favor in trying to lure Darvish to Minneapolis. That said, it doesn’t sound as if anything is close on the Darvish front, either. One Twins exec opined to Neal that Darvish could yet take another month to make his decision. Wherever he signs, Darvish’s contract will all but certainly represent a would-be record commitment for the Twins in free agency; the Twins have never signed a free agent for more than Ervin Santana’s four-year, $55MM contract, though Darvish seems unlikely to top the Twins’ franchise record for a contract (Joe Mauer’s $184MM extension coming off his MVP 2009 campaign).

More out of the American League…

  • Mariners GM Jerry Dipoto chatted with Larry Stone of the Seattle Times about his aggressive and active approach on the trade front, refuting the notion that he’s torn down the team’s farm system (a minor league system that was poor when he inherited it in the first place). “We have not emptied the farm system to go acquire veteran players to make a run at a postseason,” says Dipoto. “…[W]e have effectively moved players around the league to acquire players that are in their prime who are under team control, almost all of whom are in their 20s.” Indeed, Stone points out that the Mariners have quietly become the second-youngest team in their division, with only a few notable stars (Nelson Cruz, Robinson Cano) much beyond the age of 30. “There are more ways to rebuild than ripping it down to the studs,” Dipoto says of his efforts to build a younger roster. I’d highly recommend a full read-through of Stone’s column, which is packed with quotes from Dipoto that provide insight into the Mariners’ process and his decision-making.
  • The Orioles have made surprisingly minimal efforts to extend second baseman Jonathan Schoop, writes Eduardo A. Encina of the Baltimore Sun. If the O’s don’t approach Schoop about a long-term deal prior to the start of the 2018 season, they’ll be in a similar spot with him to the one they face with regard to Manny Machado right now, Encina observes. MLBTR projects Schoop to top $9MM in salary this coming season, so if he enters this year without an extension, there’ll be little cause for him to seriously entertain a long-term deal next winter when he’s just one year removed from hitting free agency in advance of his age-28 season with more than $15MM already in his back pocket. Encina, though, points out that the O’s haven’t brokered an extension with any of their young potential core pieces since Adam Jones in 2012, instead shelling out massive commitments to re-sign Chris Davis and (to a lesser extent) Darren O’Day and Mark Trumbo in free agency. Of course, it’s also worth noting that they likely dodged some bullets by eschewing such contracts for players like Chris Tillman and Matt Wieters.
  • The Tigers preferred the package of prospects that the Mets were willing to offer for Ian Kinsler to the package they received from the Angels, writes Anthony Fenech of the Detroit Free Press. However, Kinsler would only waive his no-trade clause to approve a trade to the Angels, forcing GM Al Avila’s hand. Though Avila could’ve waited, Fenech opines that the GM made the right call to act when there was a trade scenario on the table rather than to wait for something unforeseen to arise. Meanwhile, Kinsler tells Jeff Fletcher of the Orange County Register that Justin Upton has been recruiting him since being traded to the Angels in August, and the Halos’ success in the Shohei Ohtani sweepstakes caught his attention as well: “Making moves this winter to push for the next level … That motivates a player like me.”

Mets Rumors: Bruce, Kipnis, Tribe

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The latest from Citi Field…

  • The Mets have been linked to a possible reunion with Jay Bruce all offseason, and a Mets source tells Kristie Ackert of the New York Daily News that the free agent is looking for a four-year contract.  This represents a shift in Bruce’s asking price, as he and his representatives began the offseason in search of a five-year pact worth $80-$90MM and reportedly were still sticking to that demand at the start of December.  Of course, starting with a high number is a common tactic in any negotiation, so it isn’t surprising that Bruce has limited his demand, particularly since the free agent market as a whole has yet to truly kick into gear.  Even four years may be too long for the Mets’ liking — while Bruce would be a valuable contributor at first base or in a corner outfield spot, New York has Michael Conforto (once he recovers from shoulder surgery) and rookie Dominic Smith slated for those spots over the long term.  The Rockies, Blue Jays, and Mariners have also been linked to Bruce at various points over the winter, though Seattle’s acquisitions of Ryon Healy and Dee Gordon may have lessened their desire for Bruce’s services.
  • A source “expressed skepticism” to Newsday’s Marc Carig (Twitter links) that the Mets and Indians would be able to work out a deal involving second baseman Jason Kipnis.  New York has been connected to a wide array of players as it tries to address its hole at the keystone, though with other trade avenues seemingly closing up, it was looking like Kipnis could be the Mets’ top option.  With the Mets also apparently open to taking on salary instead of moving prospects in trades, Kipnis seemed like an even clearer target; one rival executive described Kipnis as one of “the most attainable” second basemen left on the market given that the Tribe seems eager to get his $30.5MM in remaining salary off their books.

NL East Notes: Nats, Rendon, Mets, Phillies

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Nationals third baseman Anthony Rendon implied to Chelsea Janes of the Washington Post and other reporters Sunday that he’d be open to discussing an extension with the team (Twitter link). “Why not stay with one organization?” said Rendon, who has been a member of the franchise since it chose him sixth overall in the 2011 draft. The Scott Boras client has turned into an elite-level player since then, and he’s only two years away from free agency (he’ll make a projected $11.5MM in 2018). Unsurprisingly, general manager Mike Rizzo suggested earlier this week that the Nats would be interested in locking up Rendon before he’s able to leave.

More on Washington and two of its division rivals:

  • The Mets’ front office enters each offseason “flying blind,” without an exact idea of how much money is available to spend, Marc Carig of Newsday reports. Carig reached out via email to Mets chief operating officer Jeff Wilpon to discuss the team’s payroll, but the executive declined comment through a spokesman. As a result, Carig goes on to criticize the Mets for a lack of transparency and accountability, an unwillingness to spend like the huge-market team they are, and their almost nonexistent scouting presence in the Pacific Rim and Cuba.
  • Even with Carlos Santana, Tommy Hunter and Pat Neshek now aboard, the Phillies may not contend for a playoff spot in 2018. However, those signings are credibility-building moves that will help the team make progress in the win-loss column next season, thus making it a more attractive option for premier free agents in a year, Matt Gelb of Philly.com observes. According to Gelb, the club has done a lot of planning around next winter’s class, one that’s currently slated to include Bryce Harper, Manny Machado and other superstars.
  • Reliever Brandon Kintzler turned down offers to close elsewhere to return to the Nationals as a setup man, Rizzo revealed Sunday (Twitter link via Mark Zuckerman of MASNsports.com). “Part of the thing we like most about him is he’s about the name on the front of the jersey, more so than the name on the back,” Rizzo said. More on Kintzler from Mike Berardino of the Pioneer Press, who reports (Twitter link) that the righty’s agent, Kevin Kohler, asked Rizzo during negotiations if he’d re-up Kintzler to a one-year, $5MM contract. Rizzo said he would, but he expressed doubt that Kintzler would accept that. Kintzler’s camp then responded with a two-year, $15MM proposal. In the end, the sides settled on a two-year agreement with a $10MM guarantee and a chance for $6MM million more in incentives.

AL Rumors: Rays, Archer, Longoria, Yanks, White Sox, Machado, Red Sox

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The Astros and Phillies have interest in Rays right-hander Chris Archer, joining a slew of previously reported clubs, per Marc Topkin of the Tampa Bay Times. The Rays clearly wouldn’t have any trouble finding a taker for Archer, thanks to his track record, age (29) and team-friendly contract (four years, $34MM). Teammate and face of the franchise Evan Longoria, the Rays’ longtime third baseman, is three years older than Archer and costs far more (a guaranteed $86MM over a half-decade). But that doesn’t seem to be a prohibitive price tag, as the three-time All-Star is drawing some interest from the division-rival Yankees as well as the Giants, Mets and previously reported Cardinals, according to Topkin.

More on Tampa Bay and a few other teams:

  • The offer the White Sox made to the Orioles for third baseman/shortstop Manny Machado did not include second baseman Yoan Moncada or rightyMichael Kopech, Nick Cafardo of the Boston Globe writes. It would’ve been a surprise to see the rebuilding White Sox consider parting with either player for only a year of control over Machado. The 22-year-old Moncada and Kopech, 21, were the crown jewels in the package they received last winter for Chris Sale, after all. Moncada, whom the White Sox promoted last July, will be their second baseman from the get-go next year. The flamethrowing Kopech reached Triple-A in 2017 and now ranks as MLB.com’s 10th-best prospect.
  • While righty Jake Odorizzi represents another Ray who could be in a different uniform in 2018, teams aren’t having an easy time prying him out of Tampa Bay. The Rays have let potential trade partners know they’ll have to “extend” for a shot at Odorizzi, Mike Berardino of the Pioneer Press tweets. Odorizzi, who will play his age-28 campaign in 2018, is under control via arbitration for two more seasons. He’s projected to earn a reasonable $6.5MM next year.
  • Red Sox president of baseball operations Dave Dombrowski told Jen McCaffrey of MassLive.com and other reporters Saturday that the club had interest in Carlos Santana before he agreed to to a pact with Philadelphia on Friday. However, the Red Sox “weren’t necessarily prepared to go to the dollar amount that was there” for the first baseman, who landed a three-year, $60MM guarantee. And after suggesting at the Winter Meetings that offense-needy Boston would only add one big bat, Dombrowski doubled down on that Saturday, saying the team’s “focused on getting one person.”

Mets Sign Anthony Swarzak

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The Mets have announced their deal with righty Anthony Swarzak, as Marc Carig of Newsday first reported (via Twitter). It’ll be a two-year, $14MM contract for the Jet Sports Management client, according to Carig. Swarzak will take home a $1MM signing bonus and then salaries of $5MM and $8MM, per Jon Heyman of Fan Rag (via Twitter).

Aug 5, 2017; St. Petersburg, FL, USA; Milwaukee Brewers relief pitcher Anthony Swarzak (37) pumps his fist and celebrates as they beat the Tampa Bay Rays at Tropicana Field. Mandatory Credit: Kim Klement-USA TODAY Sports

Swarzak, 32, will bolster the late-inning mix for the Mets, who had stated all winter long that the bullpen was a priority. He was the option chosen after New York failed to land a few other targets, Carig notes.

Of course, the veteran looks to be a nice consolation prize. After all, he turned in 77 1/3 innings of 2.33 ERA ball, with 10.6 K/9 against 2.6 BB/9, in a strong 2017 campaign.

That was a notable breakout for a reliever that had only once previously allowed less than four earned runs per nine over a full MLB campaign. The eight-year veteran owns a lifetime 4.22 ERA in 561 1/3 career frames.

While it’s easy to raise an eyebrow at the idea that Swarzak can sustain the improvement, there was more to it than sample fortune. The veteran clearly found something, as he turned in a personal-best 95.0 mph average fastball and a 14.0% swinging-strike rate that dwarfed anything he had shown previously. The velo boost was also evident in Swarzak’s slider, which was quite a different pitch than it was in most of his prior work. He was equally effective against lefties and righties in his sparkling campaign, MLB.com’s Anthony DiComo notes on Twitter.

For the Mets, the move gives new skipper Mickey Callaway one more arm to call upon when the game is on the line. Deepening the relief corps as much as the organization hopes may still require further acquisitions, though perhaps not at this contractual magnitude. Since the club was chasing some higher-priced pieces that have since signed elsewhere, it’s also possible that there could be some extra cash available for further relief moves or to address other needs.

Photo courtesy of USA Today Sports Images.

Mets Sign Jose Lobaton

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The Mets have inked a minors deal with veteran catcher Jose Lobaton, per a team announcement. He’ll receive an invitation to MLB camp next spring.

Lobaton, a 33-year-old switch-hitter, has played for the division-rival Nationals for the past four seasons. While he is generally regarded as a reliable asset behind the dish, Lobaton has limped to a .210/.281/.307 batting line over 657 plate appearances during his tenure in D.C.

While he’s an established MLB asset, Lobaton’s struggles of late always made it seem likely he’d end up settling for a minor-league arrangement. Catching depth is always important to have, though, and Lobaton will certainly rate among the better insurance policies around the game.

Perhaps it’s not too soon to fully rule out a run at a MLB roster spot for Lobaton. Current Mets options Travis d’Arnaud (who’s projected to earn $3.4MM in arbitration) and Kevin Plawecki (who’s out of options) have certainly had their share of ups and downs, after all. But it seems quite likely the Mets will open the 2018 season with those two players sharing time behind the dish.

NL East Links: Phillips, Mets, Second Base, Kipnis, Nats, Flores

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The Braves don’t seem to have interest in bringing Brandon Phillips back to his hometown team, David O’Brien of the Atlanta Journal-Constitution reports (Twitter link).  Phillips spent the first five months of the 2017 season with the Braves, hitting .291/.329/.423 over 499 PA before his production fell off after an August 31 deal to the Angels.  Atlanta is known to be looking for veteran stop-gap options at third base until prospect Austin Riley is ready, and Phillips already moved to the hot corner last season to accommodate Ozzie Albies’ promotion to the big leagues.  There hasn’t been any hot stove buzz about Phillips this winter, as the 36-year-old looks to catch on for his 17th MLB season.

Some more news and notes from around the NL East…

  • The Mets are still looking for help at second base, though they don’t appear to be close on some of the options on the trade market, Mike Puma of the New York Post writes.  Team officials “indicated there was little momentum” in talks with the Phillies on Cesar Hernandez and the Pirates about Josh Harrison, while the Twins are giving the impression that Brian Dozier is unlikely to be dealt.  The Brewers’ Jonathan Villar is available in the wake of his down year, though Villar isn’t seen “as a serious possibility” by the Mets for now.  Looking at outside-the-box possibilities, signing shortstop Zack Cozart and switching him to second base seems like a “long shot” scenario, a source tells Newsday’s Marc Carig (Twitter link).
  • In a full story from Carig, he reports that the Mets are more willing to take on salary than give up significant prospects in trades.  This could lead them to Jason Kipnis, who both Carig and Puma cite as potentially the Mets’ top second base target.  The Indians owe Kipnis $28MM over the next two season, plus a $16.5MM club option for 2020 that carries a $2.5MM buyout.  Also from Carig, he reports that the Mets don’t seem to have much interest in another second baseman, the Athletics’ Jed Lowrie.
  • It probably isn’t safe to rule out the Nationals on any Scott Boras client given the relationship between the team and the super-agent, and indeed, SB Nation’s Chris Cotillo (Twitter link) hears from some in the industry that Washington could be a “dark horse” contender to sign J.D. Martinez.  In this scenario, the Nats would obtain a long-term slugger that would help them withstand the potential loss of Bryce Harper to free agency next winter.  Cotillo suggests that the Nationals could shop Michael Taylor if they signed Martinez, though I’d argue that Taylor is better served as an (overqualified) fourth outfielder for 2018 who could move back into a starting role in 2019 if Harper leaves.
  • The Phillies announced the hiring of Jose Flores the team’s first base coach and baserunning/infield instructor.  This is Flores’ first job on a Major League coaching staff, after spending the last five years as the Cubs’ minor league infield coordinator, and several teams coaching and managing in Puerto Rico, including two years as the manager of Puerto Rico’s national team.

Position Player Rumblings: Red Sox, Machado, White Sox, Cards/Donaldson, Jays/Cain, Mets

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The Red Sox have designs on adding the two top position players on the free agent market, according to the Boston Herald’s Michael Silverman, with ongoing pursuit of both J.D. Martinez and Eric Hosmer. Interestingly, Silverman notes that Boston would likely look to shed some of its obligations to Hanley Ramirez by dealing him away in the event it can acquire both players.

That scenario seems to be one of several possibilities still remaining for the Red Sox, who are one of the many teams with plenty of work yet to do in settling their regular lineups. Here’s a look in at the latest notes on bats from around the game:

  • Orioles VP of baseball ops Dan Duquette made clear today that he does not foresee striking a deal involving third baseman Manny Machado that is contingent upon extension negotiations, as Joel Sherman of the New York Post was among those to report on Twitter. In other words, it seems any acquiring team would be gaining just one year of control over over Machado. Sherman also hears that the odds are in favor of a deal at this point, tweeting that the White Sox and Cardinals are the “most aggressive” teams in pursuit of the young superstar.
  • For the White Sox, the interest in Machado does not include an intention to flip him in a later swap, according to Bob Nightengale of USA Today (via Twitter). While Chicago has made an “impressive” bid for Machado, per Mark Gonzales of the Chicago Tribune, Nightengale also says that the belief on the South Side is that others have offered more. Meanwhile, GM Rick Hahn said that the team’s “focus remains on the long term” and says he won’t “make any sort of move that’s aimed at jumping up” into immediate contention. Despite that cold water, he did say the organization is willing to “take some calculated risks along the way.” Just what the team has in mind with this reported pursuit remains a bit of a mystery, but we’ll have to wait and see how things shake out.
  • While evidently maintaining interest in Machado and pursuing other fronts, the Cardinals are also still “pushing” the Blue Jays to offer up their own star third baseman, Josh Donaldson, according to Ken Rosenthal of The Athletic (via Twitter). At this point, though, there’s no reason to believe that Toronto will budge from its stance on Donaldson — namely, that it’s not interested in moving him for anything approaching a reasonable return.
  • Far from dangling Donaldson, it seems the Blue Jays are at least weighing a major addition. The club has interest in free agent center fielder Lorenzo Cain, per Jon Heyman of Fan Rag (via Twitter). In theory, Cain could coexist with current center fielder Kevin Pillar, though Cain is also most valuable up the middle. The Jays are interested in committing up to four years, says Heyman, but it seems there are indications Cain will have an opportunity to secure a better deal elsewhere. MLBTR predicted that Cain would land four years in free agency; to this point, we haven’t heard much public discussion of his market, but he’s rather clearly the top available center fielder.
  • While the Mets were able to come away from the Winter Meetings with a relief arm, they have yet to fill their opening at second base. Per Marc Carig of Newsday, Ian Kinsler was not willing to waive his no-trade rights to go to New York. (All links to Twitter.) The club has a variety of other options still in play, Carig explains, adding that the organization was discussing righty Rafael Montero in talks regarding Kinsler.
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